I don't think it can be called I*. I2-M423 and some, as of yet, poorly resolved I certainly, but not I*. It'll be interesting to see where and when any I1 and pre-I1 lineages appear in the ancient DNA record.

A couple of weeks ago I watched Spencer Well's PBS documentary Journey of Man from 2003 and it was very interesting, but he implied that his own haplogroup, R1b, was one of the oldest in Europe and was the haplogroup of the Cro-Magnon. So it's fascinating to see how new ancient DNA studies have overturned prior theories about ancient European populations. Here's a quote from Wells that I found online: "Men belonging to Haplogroup R1b are direct descendants of the Cro-Magnon people who, beginning 30,000 years ago, dominated the human expansion into Europe and heralded the demise of the Neanderthal species," Wells said.Matthew Simonds > Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 19:30:33 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread across > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > Terry W. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My brother is N95371. I will order the M227 :) Lena Ekholt søndag 5. januar 2014 skrev Diana Gale Matthiesen følgende: > I've been trying to glean from the SNP Results tables at FTDNA and the > archive > of this list just who among the CTS6364+ individuals has tested positive > for any > one of these SNPs: L69, M227, L1274, and L1275. This is what I have > found, so > far. > > L69 > N20789 ROBESON..... L69+ L1274- L1275- M227- > _80366 RHODES...... L69+ L1274- L1275- M227- > 119706 DAY......... L69+ ______ ______ M227- > 181124 McISAAC..... L69+ ______ L1275- _____ > 132649 PIOTROWIZC.. L69+ ______ ______ _____ > N95371 HASLE....... L69+ L1274- L1275- _____ > _20551 HIGHT....... L69+ ______ L1275- M227- > 275994 MYKLEBUST... L69+ ______ ______ _____ > 267833 ?........... L69+ ______ ______ _____ > 105394 SKARBEK..... L69+ L1274- L1274- _____ > > If you are L69+ and haven't tested M227, you might want to consider doing > so. > It's actually somewhat amazing to find anyone escape getting an M227 test > as > part of FTDNA's "Deep SNP" test. > > L69 > M227 > Only two of the 15 M227+'s have tested L69: > _66586 AZZI........ L69+ ______ ______ > 213344 PROKOPIUK... L69+ ______ ______ > > The PROKOPIUK is taking the BigY, so we should soon have his results for > L1274/L1275. > > L69? > L1275 > _21268 ALLRED...... ____ L1274- L1275+ > 122425 BRITTON..... ____ ______ L1275+ > > How was L1275 placed downstream of L69 if neither of these individuals > tested > it? > > L69 > L1274 > Neither of the CHILDERS appears to have tested L1275: > 19389 CHILDERS..... L69+ ______ ______ > 78040 CHILDRESS.... ____ L1274+ ______ > > If you have taken any of these tests, and I have omitted your results, > please > share. > > Diana > > P.S. I am not suggesting anyone who is taking the BigY do any a la carte > SNP > testing at this point. Only if you have no intention of taking one of the > "deep" SNP tests, now or in the near future, should you consider a la > carte SNP > testing. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] <javascript:;> with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you for letting me know, Lena. I've updated his entry to show his test is pending: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#L69.1 Please let me know what his result is when it returns, and I'll update it again. Diana > From: Lena Ekholt > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 6:31 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L69 / L1274 / L1275 > > My brother is N95371. I will order the M227 :) > > Lena Ekholt

> I hope this paper encourages the study of more ancient dna samples from Europe and from as many different time periods as possible. Ancient DNA studies are one of the most exciting new frontiers. It's already very interesting (if I am not mistaken) that there is no haplogroup R in the oldest ancient DNA samples reported so far from Western Europe. Matthew Simonds > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 13:31:02 -0700 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Yes, it is a very interesting paper, especially to haplogroup I folks. Unfortunately they did not go as far as they could have gone because they limited themselves to ISOGG tree; this situation can maybe be remedied.. I hope this paper encourages the study of more ancient dna samples from Europe and from as many different time periods as possible. > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > > From: Didier VERNADE > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 1:23 PM > To: Kenneth Nordtvedt ; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > > OK, tanks for the update ; I hope the link will still be of some use for other late comers like me ! > > > > > > > > > You apparently have not been tuned in. It has been discusssed rather > > extensively on this list. If you look at "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > > and "Tree for L161" you can see some of the very interesting snp placements > > and new tree branch resulting from testing of many recent snp discoveries > > from Geno2 on some of these 8000 b.p. dna samples. I think there is more to > > come if Mortala2 and Mortala9 turn out to be readble for an additional bunch > > of ysnps presented to them. > > > > > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > It seems that the recent paper, "Ancient human genomes suggest three > > ancestral populations for present-day Europeans" wasn't discussed on this > > list while the early european seem to be of I haplogroup. Here is a link : > > > > http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552 > > > > > > > > Didier Vernade > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

http://my.opera.com/nielsol/blog/2009/08/19/short-history-of-baltic-sea-2 I am including the paper from which this image was taken. It shows a land connection between the present day Denmark and southern Sweden 8,000 bp. Another image from the same source shows A water connection between the North Sea and Baltic Sea had developed by 6,000 bp. John M Rhodes Begin forwarded message: > From: John M Rhodes <[email protected]> > Date: 5 January, 2014 9:45:08 PM EST > To: [email protected] > Subject: Ancylus Lake 8,000-9,500 bp > > > > John M Rhodes

John M Rhodes

So far the oldest I1 found is that of Birger Magnusson, who died in 1266. (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/royaldna.shtml) This map of  'Ancient European Y-DNA (to about 1000 BC)',  is showing several R1a & R1b remains in Europe, dated ~2600 BC https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=213438250367785646910.0004c207cb41957c65816&msa=0&ll=46.195042,9.84375&spn=18.525877,46.538086   Steve Trangsrud ________________________________ From: "Peterson, Phillip R." <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans I don't think it can be called I*.  I2-M423 and some, as of yet, poorly resolved I certainly, but not I*.  It'll be interesting to see where and when any I1 and pre-I1 lineages appear in the ancient DNA record. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

All of these samples in this latest study were I* or I2. What is the oldest sample of I1 yet found? > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 13:31:02 -0700 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Yes, it is a very interesting paper, especially to haplogroup I folks. Unfortunately they did not go as far as they could have gone because they limited themselves to ISOGG tree; this situation can maybe be remedied.. I hope this paper encourages the study of more ancient dna samples from Europe and from as many different time periods as possible. > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > > From: Didier VERNADE > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 1:23 PM > To: Kenneth Nordtvedt ; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > > OK, tanks for the update ; I hope the link will still be of some use for other late comers like me ! > > > > > > > > > You apparently have not been tuned in. It has been discusssed rather > > extensively on this list. If you look at "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > > and "Tree for L161" you can see some of the very interesting snp placements > > and new tree branch resulting from testing of many recent snp discoveries > > from Geno2 on some of these 8000 b.p. dna samples. I think there is more to > > come if Mortala2 and Mortala9 turn out to be readble for an additional bunch > > of ysnps presented to them. > > > > > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > It seems that the recent paper, "Ancient human genomes suggest three > > ancestral populations for present-day Europeans" wasn't discussed on this > > list while the early european seem to be of I haplogroup. Here is a link : > > > > http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552 > > > > > > > > Didier Vernade > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It seems that the recent paper, "Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans" wasn't discussed on this list while the early european seem to be of I haplogroup. Here is a link : http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552   Didier Vernade

Of course! But the new archaeological/genetic evidence also seems to indicate that Haplogroup I* was also more widespread than some of us had previously thought. I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Terry W. On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]>wrote: > Luxuemberg to Sweden certain speaks about the haplogroup I possibility > concerning northern Europe. But prior to arrival of R1b and R1a, some > other haplogroups had to represent larger fraction of population most > everywhere; that's a mathematical certainty. > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: T.J. White > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:30 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread across > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > Terry W. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165

Interesting feature on that map is that swath of darker color that isolates present-day Poland from Germany. What does the darker color mean? A different kind of vegetation or soil type? Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: John O'Grady Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 7:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans Here is a map of Europe 8,000 BP. Pretty much the same as now, except there was still a land-bridge from Europe to Britain. http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/eur%288ky.gif John O'Grady > What surprised me most about this paper's results was that the Loschbour > dna > from Luxuemberg was so close to the Motala12 dna from Sweden. The latter > dna was readable for 9 snps found in the vicinity of M423 in the I tree. > Motala12 was identical to Loschbour on all 9 of those snps for which the > two > dna samples were both readable, although being dug up five hundred miles > apart and separated by a strait of the sea (maybe not; was the Baltic cut > off from Atlantic 8000 b.p.?). > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread across Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. Terry W.

By widespread I assume you are talking "geography"? These 8000 b.p. haplogroup I dna samples have been found in two places --- Sweden and Luxuemberg --- presentday heartland of haplogroup I is about as extensive and certainly does not encompass the bulk of Europe. How concentrated geographically speaking did you imagine haplogroup I to be 8000 years ago? What I am trying to discover with these questions is just what some of you thought was the degree of spread of haplogroup I at that ancient time? Do you expect dna from 8000 bp and located anywhere along the northern shore of the Mediterranean or the south Balkans to be haplogroup I or even the M423+ branch of I? Maybe Mediterranean Europe 8000 b.p. was primarily some other branch of the tree which was eventually so overrun by the agriculturalists it went extinct? We need some 8000 b.p. dna from the south. And perhaps haplogroup I survived in the north because the agriculturists' invasion weakened as it penetrated more into northern Europe? What surprised me most about this paper's results was that the Loschbour dna from Luxuemberg was so close to the Motala12 dna from Sweden. The latter dna was readable for 9 snps found in the vicinity of M423 in the I tree. Motala12 was identical to Loschbour on all 9 of those snps for which the two dna samples were both readable, although being dug up five hundred miles apart and separated by a strait of the sea (maybe not; was the Baltic cut off from Atlantic 8000 b.p.?). Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: T.J. White Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans Of course! But the new archaeological/genetic evidence also seems to indicate that Haplogroup I* was also more widespread than some of us had previously thought. I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Terry W. On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]>wrote: > Luxuemberg to Sweden certain speaks about the haplogroup I possibility > concerning northern Europe. But prior to arrival of R1b and R1a, some > other haplogroups had to represent larger fraction of population most > everywhere; that's a mathematical certainty. > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: T.J. White > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:30 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread > across > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > Terry W. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It is a vegetation map. The dark green is conifer forest, the light green is deciduous forest. You can read the article here: http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercEUROPE.html John O'Grady ---------------------------------------- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 19:51:44 -0700 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Interesting feature on that map is that swath of darker color that isolates > present-day Poland from Germany. What does the darker color mean? A > different kind of vegetation or soil type? > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt

Here is a map of Europe 8,000 BP. Pretty much the same as now, except there was still a land-bridge from Europe to Britain. http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/eur%288ky.gif John O'Grady > What surprised me most about this paper's results was that the Loschbour dna > from Luxuemberg was so close to the Motala12 dna from Sweden. The latter > dna was readable for 9 snps found in the vicinity of M423 in the I tree. > Motala12 was identical to Loschbour on all 9 of those snps for which the two > dna samples were both readable, although being dug up five hundred miles > apart and separated by a strait of the sea (maybe not; was the Baltic cut > off from Atlantic 8000 b.p.?). > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt

Mr Wells has had his assertions cut down on multiple occasions. He is too much of a promoter to stick closer to the evidence in his claims, but not alone in this tendency. Back around 2003, or shortly thereafter, The "R1b were the ancient populators of Europe crowd" simply refused to accept the better STR-based haplotype dating (as longer haplotypes became available in larger numbers)which pointed to R1b in Europe being too young to be the first post-glacial folks. They insisted on dating estimate methods which produced ages two or more times older than what would today be considered more believable numbers. The view that y haplogroup I was probably in Europe well before R1b's arrival from places further east did not come from ancient dna but from age estimates of present-day clades and haplogroups and the trees exhibiting how they all fit together through time. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Simonds Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans A couple of weeks ago I watched Spencer Well's PBS documentary Journey of Man from 2003 and it was very interesting, but he implied that his own haplogroup, R1b, was one of the oldest in Europe and was the haplogroup of the Cro-Magnon. So it's fascinating to see how new ancient DNA studies have overturned prior theories about ancient European populations. Here's a quote from Wells that I found online: "Men belonging to Haplogroup R1b are direct descendants of the Cro-Magnon people who, beginning 30,000 years ago, dominated the human expansion into Europe and heralded the demise of the Neanderthal species," Wells said.Matthew Simonds > Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2014 19:30:33 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread > across > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > Terry W. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Luxuemberg to Sweden certain speaks about the haplogroup I possibility concerning northern Europe. But prior to arrival of R1b and R1a, some other haplogroups had to represent larger fraction of population most everywhere; that's a mathematical certainty. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: T.J. White Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread across Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. Terry W. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello again Carol, If you saw Bernie's message, you know how to find and download the raw data file. I saved it to my hard drive, and WinZip automatically unzipped it. I just double-clicked on the file name in Windows Explorer, and the file automatically opened in Excel, listing the SNPs. Not obvious at the NGS site how to do it, but easy when you know how. Thanks for pushing me to learn how. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Carol Gilbert > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:32 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L69 / L1274 / L1275 > > Hi Gale, > 267833 is my husband ( no known ancestral surname), adoptive name Gilbert, > and I have - on advice- checked his raw data which indicates he is M227 > negative and he recently tested L1275 which was also negative. Tell me where > to look for the rest, if that is possible, and I'll tell you the answer. > > Carol Gilbert > [email protected]

Thank you, Bernie. Easy when you know how, but not the most obvious place to find it. Diana > From: Bernie Cullen > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 2:27 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] how to find/download/read Geno2 raw data? > > Geno 2.0 raw data is not available anywhere at FTDNA, you have to download > it from the geno 2.0 website. Login with your Genographic ID code or your > username and password if you created one:: > https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/results/login/userlogin > > Then go to Profile in the blue bar near the top of the page, then on the > new page, click on expert options which will be a tab in a gray bar a > little bit farther down the page. Then you should see a DOWNLOAD.CSV > button, click on it. > > The Geno 2.0 website is confusing but you should be able to find it > eventualy > > Bernie