Hello John, Could you please share his Kit/ID # and yours? Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of John O'Grady > Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 7:29 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Chromo2 L161 comparison > > Ken, > > I compared Collier's Chromo2 results with my Full Genomes results. I found the > following SNPs for which Collier is positive and I am negative: > > CTS10008 > CTS11575 > CTS1414 > CTS3084 > CTS3844 > CTS5139 > CTS5248 > CTS5730 > CTS927 > PF1252 > > John O'Grady > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message

Makes sense. Terry W. On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 7:20 PM, Rossa Mullen <[email protected]> wrote: > The pre-celtic claim of the pcts seems to come from Scottish myhtology > giving them a Scythian homeland. The term is a Roman one (most likely never > used by the groups being described) and just means painted ones, as in Pre > Roman Britain people used body paint and in parts of Britain that the > Romans conquered the practice was abolished. As it was still practiced > North of the wall the Romans referred to the wildlings as Picts. > > > > > On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 4:09 PM, T.J. White <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >From what I remember, the Picts were autochthonic and Pre-Celtic, although > later absorbed by the Celts. Who knows what their major haplogroups may > have been? > > Terry W. > > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 5:00 PM, Matthew Simonds <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > Interesting article. The authors speculate that the Picts might have been > > I1 or I2 although I thought that the Picts were probably a Celtic > people. I > > also wonder if haplogroup I1 had reached Britain that early? > > > > Matthew Simonds > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 20:01:05 -0500 > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day > Europeans > > > > > > Way back on 17 May of last year, a paper was posted on this forum by > Sue > > > Heeden, that might be relevant to the discussion. > > > > > > I am attaching a copy for ease of access. It approaches the 3 > > populations > > > from a linguistics point of view, and tries to explain those long > branch > > > distances seen in other haplogroups. It is *DNA Genealogy and > > Linguistics. > > > Ancient Europe * > > > > > > www.scirp.org/journal/aa/ > > > > > > > > > > > > The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link > > > attachments: > > > AA_2013051612554944-1.pdf > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:30 PM, T.J. White <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread > > across > > > > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > > > > > > > Terry W. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." > > Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165

>From what I remember, the Picts were autochthonic and Pre-Celtic, although later absorbed by the Celts. Who knows what their major haplogroups may have been? Terry W. On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 5:00 PM, Matthew Simonds <[email protected]>wrote: > Interesting article. The authors speculate that the Picts might have been > I1 or I2 although I thought that the Picts were probably a Celtic people. I > also wonder if haplogroup I1 had reached Britain that early? > > Matthew Simonds > > > > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 20:01:05 -0500 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > > > Way back on 17 May of last year, a paper was posted on this forum by Sue > > Heeden, that might be relevant to the discussion. > > > > I am attaching a copy for ease of access. It approaches the 3 > populations > > from a linguistics point of view, and tries to explain those long branch > > distances seen in other haplogroups. It is *DNA Genealogy and > Linguistics. > > Ancient Europe * > > > > www.scirp.org/journal/aa/ > > > > > > > > The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link > > attachments: > > AA_2013051612554944-1.pdf > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:30 PM, T.J. White <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread > across > > > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > > > > > Terry W. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165

Diana, Chromo2 is a product of one of FTDNA's competitors, so there won't be any transfers, unless FTDNA decides to accept results from Chromo2 customers. Did you see that Bernie Cullen provided Collier's kit number? John O'Grady ---------------------------------------- > Thank you, John. > > Can people who've taken the Chromo2 test transfer results to FTDNA? Or am I > correct in assuming just Geno2 people can do that? > > Diana

I picked Collier because I was looking for SNPs downstream of L161. This is embarrassing. I knew I had to look at the alleles but somehow I overlooked that step. Anyway, there is one real difference: CTS3844 Collier GG O'Grady AA Full Genomes and Thomas Krahn's browser both say that CTS3844 is A to G. If everyone else in haplogroup I is GG, then maybe I have a new SNP downstream of L161. John O'Grady ---------------------------------------- > I'm wondering why you picked Collier to compare to? Anyway, looking at 7 > chromo2 results side by side: > > cts927 and cts1414 are broken or inconsistent snps on chromo2 > > according to my chromo2 results: > CTS3084 is negative GG and CTS5730 is negative CC for Collier > so why are you calling them positive for Collier according to chromo2? > > For the following I see some strand clashes or errors in the pos/neg calls. > Chromo2 has: > CTS5139 is TT positive for everyone in haplogroup I > CTS5248 is AA positive for everyone in haplogroup I > and similarly for all the rest of the snps you listed they are positive for > everyone in haplogroup I (I can give alleles if you want but you must have > them as they match Collier) > > All positive or negative calls are not mine, but chromo2 lab staff. They > have been silent for a couple weeks, so I don't know if they are correcting > stuff or what? > > Kenneth Nordtvedt

I'm wondering why you picked Collier to compare to? Anyway, looking at 7 chromo2 results side by side: cts927 and cts1414 are broken or inconsistent snps on chromo2 according to my chromo2 results: CTS3084 is negative GG and CTS5730 is negative CC for Collier so why are you calling them positive for Collier according to chromo2? For the following I see some strand clashes or errors in the pos/neg calls. Chromo2 has: CTS5139 is TT positive for everyone in haplogroup I CTS5248 is AA positive for everyone in haplogroup I and similarly for all the rest of the snps you listed they are positive for everyone in haplogroup I (I can give alleles if you want but you must have them as they match Collier) All positive or negative calls are not mine, but chromo2 lab staff. They have been silent for a couple weeks, so I don't know if they are correcting stuff or what? Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: John O'Grady Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 5:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [yDNAhgI] Chromo2 L161 comparison Ken, I compared Collier's Chromo2 results with my Full Genomes results. I found the following SNPs for which Collier is positive and I am negative: CTS10008 CTS11575 CTS1414 CTS3084 CTS3844 CTS5139 CTS5248 CTS5730 CTS927 PF1252 John O'Grady ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Diana, My kit is N28466. Collier is still waiting for his initial STR test to be completed. John O'Grady ---------------------------------------- > Hello John, > > Could you please share his Kit/ID # and yours? > > Diana

Ken, I compared Collier's Chromo2 results with my Full Genomes results. I found the following SNPs for which Collier is positive and I am negative: CTS10008 CTS11575 CTS1414 CTS3084 CTS3844 CTS5139 CTS5248 CTS5730 CTS927 PF1252 John O'Grady

The pre-celtic claim of the pcts seems to come from Scottish myhtology giving them a Scythian homeland. The term is a Roman one (most likely never used by the groups being described) and just means painted ones, as in Pre Roman Britain people used body paint and in parts of Britain that the Romans conquered the practice was abolished. As it was still practiced North of the wall the Romans referred to the wildlings as Picts. On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 4:09 PM, T.J. White <[email protected]> wrote: >From what I remember, the Picts were autochthonic and Pre-Celtic, although later absorbed by the Celts. Who knows what their major haplogroups may have been? Terry W. On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 5:00 PM, Matthew Simonds <[email protected]>wrote: > Interesting article. The authors speculate that the Picts might have been > I1 or I2 although I thought that the Picts were probably a Celtic people. I > also wonder if haplogroup I1 had reached Britain that early? > > Matthew Simonds > > > > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 20:01:05 -0500 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > > > Way back on 17 May of last year, a paper was posted on this forum by Sue > > Heeden, that might be relevant to the discussion. > > > >  I am attaching a copy for ease of access.  It approaches the 3 > populations > > from a linguistics point of view, and tries to explain those long branch > > distances seen in other haplogroups.  It is *DNA Genealogy and > Linguistics. > > Ancient Europe * > > > > www.scirp.org/journal/aa/ > > > > > > > > The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link > > attachments: > > AA_2013051612554944-1.pdf > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:30 PM, T.J. White <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread > across > > > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > > > > > Terry W. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It looks like they claim the Picts were Non Indo European speakers! Too much has been made of the Picts as some kind of special group of people in my opinion, they were just non Romanised Britons who spoke a p celtic lanhuage and probably had a similar haplogroup distribution to the rest of Britain. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celticscothighlands.shtml On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 2:02 PM, Matthew Simonds <[email protected]> wrote: Interesting article. The authors speculate that the Picts might have been I1 or I2 although I thought that the Picts were probably a Celtic people. I also wonder if haplogroup I1 had reached Britain that early? Matthew Simonds > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 20:01:05 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Way back on 17 May of last year, a paper was posted on this forum by Sue > Heeden, that might be relevant to the discussion. > >  I am attaching a copy for ease of access.  It approaches the 3 populations > from a linguistics point of view, and tries to explain those long branch > distances seen in other haplogroups.  It is *DNA Genealogy and Linguistics. > Ancient Europe * > > www.scirp.org/journal/aa/ > > > > The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link > attachments: > AA_2013051612554944-1.pdf > > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:30 PM, T.J. White <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread across > > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > > > Terry W. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >  > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message                         ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I found a sixth member for your clade AS2514 with surname Fuchs/Fox from ysearch. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: george doty Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 10:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Full Genomes Ken, In a post late last year you suggested that you might be close to identifying a new Clade of which I might be a member in the AS3 region of the I1-M253 tree. Keeping both cost and information possibly gained toward the goal of identifying a new Clade, should we encourage specific individuals to expand their Y-DNA tests to 111 markers, or would some other test be better? I would be willing to help finance a limited number of such tests if you think they might be worthwhile. Looking at my records, I see a number of Dunhams and close variants, a Willis and a Kelly with haplotypes relatively close to mine at the 67 marker level, and there is a de Jong at the 37 marker level with whom I have a genetic distance of 4. Would these be possible candidates? If so, which ones might be the best bets? Would you suggest others? I assume that testing by my son and first cousin beyond the 37 marker level which they have done would not be helpful. George Doty ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken, In a post late last year you suggested that you might be close to identifying a new Clade of which I might be a member in the AS3 region of the I1-M253 tree. Keeping both cost and information possibly gained toward the goal of identifying a new Clade, should we encourage specific individuals to expand their Y-DNA tests to 111 markers, or would some other test be better? I would be willing to help finance a limited number of such tests if you think they might be worthwhile. Looking at my records, I see a number of Dunhams and close variants, a Willis and a Kelly with haplotypes relatively close to mine at the 67 marker level, and there is a de Jong at the 37 marker level with whom I have a genetic distance of 4. Would these be possible candidates? If so, which ones might be the best bets? Would you suggest others? I assume that testing by my son and first cousin beyond the 37 marker level which they have done would not be helpful. George Doty

Doty, Cueva, Kelly 94978, and Dunham certainly form a clade, although the population is presently small. I will have to track down Willis to see if he belongs. Yes, Willis is also member of the clade. Only Willis and Cueva lack the 68-111 markers. There is a clade; all there is now to do is expand its population. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: george doty Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 10:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Full Genomes Ken, In a post late last year you suggested that you might be close to identifying a new Clade of which I might be a member in the AS3 region of the I1-M253 tree. Keeping both cost and information possibly gained toward the goal of identifying a new Clade, should we encourage specific individuals to expand their Y-DNA tests to 111 markers, or would some other test be better? I would be willing to help finance a limited number of such tests if you think they might be worthwhile. Looking at my records, I see a number of Dunhams and close variants, a Willis and a Kelly with haplotypes relatively close to mine at the 67 marker level, and there is a de Jong at the 37 marker level with whom I have a genetic distance of 4. Would these be possible candidates? If so, which ones might be the best bets? Would you suggest others? I assume that testing by my son and first cousin beyond the 37 marker level which they have done would not be helpful. George Doty ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Way back on 17 May of last year, a paper was posted on this forum by Sue Heeden, that might be relevant to the discussion. I am attaching a copy for ease of access. It approaches the 3 populations from a linguistics point of view, and tries to explain those long branch distances seen in other haplogroups. It is *DNA Genealogy and Linguistics. Ancient Europe * www.scirp.org/journal/aa/ The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: AA_2013051612554944-1.pdf On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:30 PM, T.J. White <[email protected]> wrote: > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread across > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > Terry W. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Matthew, Looking at you haplotype, you are unlikely to be positive at these SNPs. Nicolas. > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 19:04:35 +0000 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] slow-fast return of SNP test results > > > I'm L22+ P109+ and for that group at the yDNA Haplogroup I: Subclade I1 group, it says to "consider L1431 & L1438." But I ordered the Big Y during the pre-sale and was wondering if those SNPs and others like L1439 will be among the 25,000 SNPs that the Big Y will test for? > Matthew Simonds > > > > > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 10:28:22 +0100 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] slow-fast return of SNP test results > > > > You are probably lucky Diana. We have a member in the I-P109 project who has been waiting since the 11th of sept. (Expected result date). > > > > He is most probably positive. This goes in the same direction to your suspicion about FTDNA research. > > > > Nicolas > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen <[email protected]> > > Date: > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] slow-fast return of SNP test results > > > > > From: Peterson, Phillip R. > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2014 10:08 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I Digest, Vol 9, Issue 2 > > > > > > I'll be surprised if FTDNA delivers anywhere near their reported deadline, > > > since I've been waiting 3 months for a single SNP which was supposed to be > > > resulted one month ago. They haven't even bothered to update the estimated > > > due date. > > > > > > It depends. I ordered L1439 on 12/14 and had a result by 12/31! > > > > I know I was told once that they "gang" these tests, so the more people ordering > > them, the sooner a batch is run. Also, I suspect FTDNA's own research interests > > affect how quickly a test gets done. Considering how fast this L1439 result > > came back, I suspect they're interested in fixing its position in the tree, too. > > > > Or, I may have just been lucky and got included in a batch that was ready to > > roll. > > > > Diana > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm only trying to tease out answers by asking questions--same as anybody else. I want to know what actually happened, no more or less than any other dispassionate party on this list. If I am wrong in any of my tentative assumptions, I will be happy to be shown why. Thanks. On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 10:17 AM, T.J. White <[email protected]> wrote: > Touché. > > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]>wrote: > >> By widespread I assume you are talking "geography"? These 8000 b.p. >> haplogroup I dna samples have been found in two places --- Sweden and >> Luxuemberg --- presentday heartland of haplogroup I is about as extensive >> and certainly does not encompass the bulk of Europe. How concentrated >> geographically speaking did you imagine haplogroup I to be 8000 years ago? >> What I am trying to discover with these questions is just what some of you >> thought was the degree of spread of haplogroup I at that ancient time? Do >> you expect dna from 8000 bp and located anywhere along the northern shore >> of the Mediterranean or the south Balkans to be haplogroup I or even the >> M423+ branch of I? >> Maybe Mediterranean Europe 8000 b.p. was primarily some other branch of >> the >> tree which was eventually so overrun by the agriculturalists it went >> extinct? We need some 8000 b.p. dna from the south. And perhaps >> haplogroup >> I survived in the north because the agriculturists' invasion weakened as >> it >> penetrated more into northern Europe? >> >> >> What surprised me most about this paper's results was that the Loschbour >> dna >> from Luxuemberg was so close to the Motala12 dna from Sweden. The latter >> dna was readable for 9 snps found in the vicinity of M423 in the I tree. >> Motala12 was identical to Loschbour on all 9 of those snps for which the >> two >> dna samples were both readable, although being dug up five hundred miles >> apart and separated by a strait of the sea (maybe not; was the Baltic cut >> off from Atlantic 8000 b.p.?). >> >> >> Kenneth Nordtvedt >> >> Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: >> http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: T.J. White >> Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:51 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans >> >> Of course! But the new archaeological/genetic evidence also seems to >> indicate that Haplogroup I* was also more widespread than some of us had >> previously thought. I don't think the two are necessarily mutually >> exclusive. >> >> Terry W. >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >> > Luxuemberg to Sweden certain speaks about the haplogroup I possibility >> > concerning northern Europe. But prior to arrival of R1b and R1a, some >> > other haplogroups had to represent larger fraction of population most >> > everywhere; that's a mathematical certainty. >> > >> > >> > >> > Kenneth Nordtvedt >> > >> > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: >> > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: T.J. White >> > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:30 PM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans >> > >> > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread >> > across >> > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. >> > >> > Terry W. >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." >> >> Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > -- > "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." > > Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165

Touché. On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]>wrote: > By widespread I assume you are talking "geography"? These 8000 b.p. > haplogroup I dna samples have been found in two places --- Sweden and > Luxuemberg --- presentday heartland of haplogroup I is about as extensive > and certainly does not encompass the bulk of Europe. How concentrated > geographically speaking did you imagine haplogroup I to be 8000 years ago? > What I am trying to discover with these questions is just what some of you > thought was the degree of spread of haplogroup I at that ancient time? Do > you expect dna from 8000 bp and located anywhere along the northern shore > of the Mediterranean or the south Balkans to be haplogroup I or even the > M423+ branch of I? > Maybe Mediterranean Europe 8000 b.p. was primarily some other branch of the > tree which was eventually so overrun by the agriculturalists it went > extinct? We need some 8000 b.p. dna from the south. And perhaps > haplogroup > I survived in the north because the agriculturists' invasion weakened as it > penetrated more into northern Europe? > > > What surprised me most about this paper's results was that the Loschbour > dna > from Luxuemberg was so close to the Motala12 dna from Sweden. The latter > dna was readable for 9 snps found in the vicinity of M423 in the I tree. > Motala12 was identical to Loschbour on all 9 of those snps for which the > two > dna samples were both readable, although being dug up five hundred miles > apart and separated by a strait of the sea (maybe not; was the Baltic cut > off from Atlantic 8000 b.p.?). > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: T.J. White > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:51 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Of course! But the new archaeological/genetic evidence also seems to > indicate that Haplogroup I* was also more widespread than some of us had > previously thought. I don't think the two are necessarily mutually > exclusive. > > Terry W. > > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > Luxuemberg to Sweden certain speaks about the haplogroup I possibility > > concerning northern Europe. But prior to arrival of R1b and R1a, some > > other haplogroups had to represent larger fraction of population most > > everywhere; that's a mathematical certainty. > > > > > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: T.J. White > > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:30 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread > > across > > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > > > Terry W. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." > > Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165

Matthew's question was not what criteria ISOGG uses for including an SNP, but how the testing companies use the term "private SNP", and at least with respect to Full Genomes, John's answer sounds correct to me. What is not known at first is how private the SNP will turn out to be. Some will be very private and confined to an individual or his close family, while others will eventually be shown to define new sub-haplogroups. And Full Genomes does indeed assign FGC names to new private SNPs without waiting for other instances of the SNP to be found. On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 11:47 PM, Haakon Styri <[email protected]> wrote: > Unfortunately, your answer regarding Private SNPs is incorrect. The short > aswer would be that the SNP must have at least two men with sufficient > different haplotypes. The detailed answer is found in the ISOGG Listing > Criteria for SNP Inclusion: > http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_SNP_Requirements.html > > Regards, > H. Styri > > > > From: John O'Grady [[email protected]] > > Sent: 2014-01-05 17:53:49 CET > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] PF3514 > > > > Companies create a prefix to identify the SNPs they report. For > instance, Full Genomes uses the prefix FGC. > > > > A SNP is considered private if only one person is derived for it. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I thought I'd try and find out something about M21+, so I searched for the original Underhill paper people have cited and found it online: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC310671/ The trouble is, the table that lists the "Description of Y Markers Used in Haplotype Construction," which must be where the information is because it isn't anywhere else in the paper that I can see, is a teeny little gif file that does not offer up a readable image when you click it. No point in just enlarging the gif, it's unreadable when enlarged. Does anyone know of a readable copy? Or does anyone know what I'm looking for? I'd like to know the geographic location/origin of the test subject. How many of those who tested M21 had any prospect of actually being positive? Diana

Unfortunately, your answer regarding Private SNPs is incorrect. The short aswer would be that the SNP must have at least two men with sufficient different haplotypes. The detailed answer is found in the ISOGG Listing Criteria for SNP Inclusion: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_SNP_Requirements.html Regards, H. Styri > From: John O'Grady [[email protected]] > Sent: 2014-01-05 17:53:49 CET > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] PF3514 > > Companies create a prefix to identify the SNPs they report. For instance, Full Genomes uses the prefix FGC. > > A SNP is considered private if only one person is derived for it. >