I show Driver M227 = GG+ and also L69+, but one always worries about strand issues with multiple labs now supplying results. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Britton Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 9:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [yDNAhgI] Position of M227 in Tree Does anyone know why M227 is parallel to L69.1, F3312, CTS8582, and L22 on the Y-Full Tree? http://www.yfull.com/tree/I1a/ What about CTS8582? Has anyone tested positive? Lindsey ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 1:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... Yes, PF49 is apparently downstream of DF29, but it also appears parallel to CTS6364, Z58, and Z63. It's presumably L1439+, but not necessarily, so at least one of them needs to test it: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 [[But L1439 was yesterday shown to be upstream of DF29. So anything downstream of DF29 will be L1439+ KN]] I see your conclusions, but your "database" showing the 37 individuals isn't online. If the data aren't published, no one else can work with them. The only visible (published) data are at FTDNA and they show just five individuals who are DF29- and Z131-. [[ Most of those 37 are in the clades AS12123 and AS1212110. People can look up in "I1 Modalities" to see if they are in those clades, or any other clades for that matter. KN]]

Kit #160188 (an AS1212) ordered L1439 this morning.

> There is a very large population of DF29- Z131- people in the database. You have no idea whether they are > L1439+ or L1439-. Are all L22+ people also DF29+? > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:27:36 -0700 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > No; that would be a big mistake I believe. There is a very large population > of DF29- Z131- people in the database. You have no idea whether they are > L1439+ or L1439-. > > If you believe you do know what these DF29- Z131- people are for L1439, what > is it and why? > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 9:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > L1439 appears to be phyloequivalent to M253, so we can stop testing it. The > only clade left to seal the deal are the PF49+'s: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > > If one of them tests positive for L1439, I can remove this SNP from the > matrix, > entirely. > > Diana > > > > From: JB McCrummen > > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:31 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > > > > > Thanks for your advice Ken. I will cancel the order. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> From: Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 2:35 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > P30, P40, M307, just like L1439 and any other PRESENTLY phyloequivalent snps > to M253 should not cease to be tested by the proven most upstream branches > of the I1 tree. I agree, in fact, I clearly advocate it: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#M253* Why do you think I'm trying to drum up a BigY test for one of the root I1-M253* individuals? But those of us downstream of CTS6364, Z58, Z63, and Z131 (and the I2's) - who, for the benefit of all, jumped in and tested it - can now STOP doing so. > It's just the sad fact that they have not been, given that > the tests have been available in the catalog for some time. With Chromo2, > and even much more so if BigY works, we will be able to use the haplotypes > from the most upstream branches of I1 to peel off some of the presently > phyloequivalent snps of I1's M253, and maybe even M253 itself. And testing > of the most upstream branches is where it matters. > > Phyloequivalence as seen from who has tested in the past does not indicate > absolute or ultimate phyloequivalence. Many phyloequivalences have been > broken by focused testing; we should expect the same for the bunch of M253 > phyloequivalences. Yes, of course, we're all looking forward to what the "comprehensive" SNP tests will do with regard to separating SNPs that are currently treated as equivalent. > 1) I believe we have shown that the PF49+ population is downstream from > DF29, being found in clade I1-ML which is DF29+. It is true we have no > PF49 test yet for an AS2122 clade member; I'd love to see one. Yes, PF49 is apparently downstream of DF29, but it also appears parallel to CTS6364, Z58, and Z63. It's presumably L1439+, but not necessarily, so at least one of them needs to test it: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > 2) I spelled out the population of DF29- Z131- earlier today. Two decent > clades, a cluster, plus some generics. The clades are seen in "Tree for > I1xZ58xL22" as AS1212 and AS121210 which are identified in "I1 modalities". > My database count is 37 haplotypes. I see your conclusions, but your "database" showing the 37 individuals isn't online. If the data aren't published, no one else can work with them. The only visible (published) data are at FTDNA and they show just five individuals who are DF29- and Z131-. We have a serious problem, here, if there isn't going to be a way for these "comprehensive" SNP results to be published and used by everyone. Several weeks ago I suggested - to the list and via an email to FTDNA - that we be given an additional column on the SNP Results tables at FTDNA where "User Entered SNP Results" could be displayed. We could manually enter *only the significant ones* from our comprehensive SNP testing via a form on our member page. Just a simple text field with a modest size limit (e.g., a few hundred characters) would be entirely adequate - and VERY easy to program. Diana > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 11:50 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > If L1439 turns out to be phyloequivalent to M253, we can stop testing it, > just > as we've stopped testing P30, P40, and its other equivalents. But as I show > in > the matrix, those who are DF29- and Z131- still need to test it (and PF49): > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#M253* > > It would be desirable for the those who are PF49+ to test it as well. > Though > they are presumably positive, it would be preferable to prove it: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > > But I have to ask, what is this "large population" that is DF29- and Z131-? > I > see only a handful. > > Diana > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i- > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 11:28 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > > > No; that would be a big mistake I believe. There is a very large > > population > > of DF29- Z131- people in the database. You have no idea whether they are > > L1439+ or L1439-. > > > > If you believe you do know what these DF29- Z131- people are for L1439, > > what > > is it and why? > > > > > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 9:14 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > > > L1439 appears to be phyloequivalent to M253, so we can stop testing it. > > The > > only clade left to seal the deal are the PF49+'s: > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > > > > If one of them tests positive for L1439, I can remove this SNP from the > > matrix, > > entirely. > > > > Diana > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message

> From: Matthew Simonds > Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:29 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > Are all L22+ people also DF29+? Yes. One reason I've created this graphic haplotree: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_haplotree.html#tree is so my project members and others, including me, can - I hope - more easily see these relationships for themselves. If you check the above haplotree, you can see that L22 is downstream of DF29, which means everyone who is L22+ should be DF29+. DF29 came first; L22 came later. It's not as clear in the matrices because not everyone is testing their upstream SNPs, but the titles of the tables indicates the sequences of SNPs that are presumed to be positive for the individuals in the table: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_L22.html#L22-Part1 If you are positive for L22, you are presumed to also be positive for M253, DF29, CTS6354, and CTS10028 because these SNPs are all upstream of L22. As Ken said, there's only a remote possibility of a backmutation (e.g., DF29+ reverting back to DF29-), but the probability isn't zero (i.e., it's not impossible), which is one reason I believe in testing upstream SNPs. I might here introduce the concept of a "SNP Patrilineal Line." We're all accustomed to the idea of a patrilineal line in our paper genealogy - it's so important to what we are doing that I require one from my Y-DNA surname project members before they can join. Well, we also have a SNP patrilineal line: the series of SNP mutations that delineate our descent from a common ancestor. With regard to our paper patrilineal line, we eventually (hopefully) reach the earliest ancestor having a paper record, so can go no further. With regard to our SNP patrilineal line, we may arbitrarily decide to focus on our line from somewhere further "down the line" from our earliest ancestor, for example, using I1-M253 as a practical starting point, as in making it the basis for the M253+ SNP matrices, which are the basis of the I1-M253 SNP haplotree. Just as I'm not comfortable skipping a generation in a paper patrilineal line, I'm likewise not comfortable skipping a test in a SNP patrilineal line, so I will continue to substantiate my ancestors' SNP patrilineal lines with actual test results, not assumptions. Diana

If L1439 turns out to be phyloequivalent to M253, we can stop testing it, just as we've stopped testing P30, P40, and its other equivalents. But as I show in the matrix, those who are DF29- and Z131- still need to test it (and PF49): http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#M253* It would be desirable for the those who are PF49+ to test it as well. Though they are presumably positive, it would be preferable to prove it: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 But I have to ask, what is this "large population" that is DF29- and Z131-? I see only a handful. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 11:28 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > No; that would be a big mistake I believe. There is a very large population > of DF29- Z131- people in the database. You have no idea whether they are > L1439+ or L1439-. > > If you believe you do know what these DF29- Z131- people are for L1439, what > is it and why? > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 9:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > L1439 appears to be phyloequivalent to M253, so we can stop testing it. The > only clade left to seal the deal are the PF49+'s: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > > If one of them tests positive for L1439, I can remove this SNP from the > matrix, > entirely. > > Diana > >

P30, P40, M307, just like L1439 and any other PRESENTLY phyloequivalent snps to M253 should not cease to be tested by the proven most upstream branches of the I1 tree. It's just the sad fact that they have not been, given that the tests have been available in the catalog for some time. With Chromo2, and even much more so if BigY works, we will be able to use the haplotypes from the most upstream branches of I1 to peel off some of the presently phyloequivalent snps of I1's M253, and maybe even M253 itself. And testing of the most upstream branches is where it matters. Phyloequivalence as seen from who has tested in the past does not indicate absolute or ultimate phyloequivalence. Many phyloequivalences have been broken by focused testing; we should expect the same for the bunch of M253 phyloequivalences. 1) I believe we have shown that the PF49+ population is downstream from DF29, being found in clade I1-ML which is DF29+. It is true we have no PF49 test yet for an AS2122 clade member; I'd love to see one. 2) I spelled out the population of DF29- Z131- earlier today. Two decent clades, a cluster, plus some generics. The clades are seen in "Tree for I1xZ58xL22" as AS1212 and AS121210 which are identified in "I1 modalities". My database count is 37 haplotypes. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 11:50 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... If L1439 turns out to be phyloequivalent to M253, we can stop testing it, just as we've stopped testing P30, P40, and its other equivalents. But as I show in the matrix, those who are DF29- and Z131- still need to test it (and PF49): http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#M253* It would be desirable for the those who are PF49+ to test it as well. Though they are presumably positive, it would be preferable to prove it: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 But I have to ask, what is this "large population" that is DF29- and Z131-? I see only a handful. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 11:28 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > No; that would be a big mistake I believe. There is a very large > population > of DF29- Z131- people in the database. You have no idea whether they are > L1439+ or L1439-. > > If you believe you do know what these DF29- Z131- people are for L1439, > what > is it and why? > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 9:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > L1439 appears to be phyloequivalent to M253, so we can stop testing it. > The > only clade left to seal the deal are the PF49+'s: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > > If one of them tests positive for L1439, I can remove this SNP from the > matrix, > entirely. > > Diana > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, they should be unless one has a later back mutation at DF29. Unlikely! Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Simonds Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > There is a very large population of DF29- Z131- people in the database. > You have no idea whether they are > L1439+ or L1439-. Are all L22+ people also DF29+? > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:27:36 -0700 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > No; that would be a big mistake I believe. There is a very large > population > of DF29- Z131- people in the database. You have no idea whether they are > L1439+ or L1439-. > > If you believe you do know what these DF29- Z131- people are for L1439, > what > is it and why? > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 9:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > L1439 appears to be phyloequivalent to M253, so we can stop testing it. > The > only clade left to seal the deal are the PF49+'s: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > > If one of them tests positive for L1439, I can remove this SNP from the > matrix, > entirely. > > Diana > > > > From: JB McCrummen > > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:31 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > > > > > Thanks for your advice Ken. I will cancel the order. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

L1439 appears to be phyloequivalent to M253, so we can stop testing it. The only clade left to seal the deal are the PF49+'s: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 If one of them tests positive for L1439, I can remove this SNP from the matrix, entirely. Diana > From: JB McCrummen > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:31 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > > Thanks for your advice Ken. I will cancel the order. >

No; that would be a big mistake I believe. There is a very large population of DF29- Z131- people in the database. You have no idea whether they are L1439+ or L1439-. If you believe you do know what these DF29- Z131- people are for L1439, what is it and why? Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 9:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... L1439 appears to be phyloequivalent to M253, so we can stop testing it. The only clade left to seal the deal are the PF49+'s: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 If one of them tests positive for L1439, I can remove this SNP from the matrix, entirely. Diana > From: JB McCrummen > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:31 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > > Thanks for your advice Ken. I will cancel the order. > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for your advice Ken. I will cancel the order. JB From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <[1][email protected]> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 19:47:49 -0700 I show you DF29+. If so you might consider canceling your order. We had a L1439+ from a Z131+ today, and branch to Z131 leaves the tree upstream of DF29. I'm truly sorry my earlier message meant for private party mistakenly got sent public. But I had to vent. For years FTDNA has kept this ordering system for individual snps obscure even though often told about the confusion they produced. The count of times that new snp customers needed to be redirected to the right place to order individual snps is in the hundreds for sure. References 1. mailto:[email protected]

I'm AS1212 but don't see L1439 in Advanced SNP order list?

I show you DF29+. If so you might consider canceling your order. We had a L1439+ from a Z131+ today, and branch to Z131 leaves the tree upstream of DF29. I'm truly sorry my earlier message meant for private party mistakenly got sent public. But I had to vent. For years FTDNA has kept this ordering system for individual snps obscure even though often told about the confusion they produced. The count of times that new snp customers needed to be redirected to the right place to order individual snps is in the hundreds for sure. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: JB McCrummen Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 7:32 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... Ordered L1439. Decided not to wait to see if my results from BigY will include it and that it might be useful to our hobby. JB McCrummen FTDNA kit: 75432. DF29* -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <[1][email protected]> Date: Sun, January 19, 2014 11:09 am To: <[2][email protected]> A Z131+ shows L1439+ moving this latter snp far upstream. But we are not done yet. There is quite a population of DF29- Z131-, and this includes two clades, AS1212 and AS121210, a cluster, and some generics. All DF29- Z131- generics should test for L1439. A representative from both clades, AS1212 and AS121210, should test for L1439, and a member of the cluster which includes Bowman, kit 194611, Nevader, and Grahm should test for L1439. See the updated âTree for I1xZ58xL22â for the far upstream part of the I1 Tree and the still questionable node structure. I notice one of the generic DF29- Z131- has ordered L1439 which is good. But the other two generics should probably test as well; there is no clue or hint yet where they branch off the main I1 tree, upstream or downstream of L1439? Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: [3]http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ordered L1439. Decided not to wait to see if my results from BigY will include it and that it might be useful to our hobby. JB McCrummen FTDNA kit: 75432. DF29* -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <[1][email protected]> Date: Sun, January 19, 2014 11:09 am To: <[2][email protected]> A Z131+ shows L1439+ moving this latter snp far upstream. But we are not done yet. There is quite a population of DF29- Z131-, and this includes two clades, AS1212 and AS121210, a cluster, and some generics. All DF29- Z131- generics should test for L1439. A representative from both clades, AS1212 and AS121210, should test for L1439, and a member of the cluster which includes Bowman, kit 194611, Nevader, and Grahm should test for L1439. See the updated âTree for I1xZ58xL22â for the far upstream part of the I1 Tree and the still questionable node structure. I notice one of the generic DF29- Z131- has ordered L1439 which is good. But the other two generics should probably test as well; there is no clue or hint yet where they branch off the main I1 tree, upstream or downstream of L1439? Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: [3]http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

You should be getting it, let me know if it did not make it. Robert Dozier -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 6:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... It would surely help if you could send me your Geno2 raw data file so I could compare it to the others in my database. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Robert Dozier Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 2:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... That " A Z131+ shows L1439+ " looks like it is mine, #283278, that wasn't schedule to come in until Feb. Btw, I transferred by Geno 2 results earlier in the week, in case that helps. Robert Dozier -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 2:09 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... A Z131+ shows L1439+ moving this latter snp far upstream. But we are not done yet. There is quite a population of DF29- Z131-, and this includes two clades, AS1212 and AS121210, a cluster, and some generics. All DF29- Z131- generics should test for L1439. A representative from both clades, AS1212 and AS121210, should test for L1439, and a member of the cluster which includes Bowman, kit 194611, Nevader, and Grahm should test for L1439. See the updated “Tree for I1xZ58xL22” for the far upstream part of the I1 Tree and the still questionable node structure. I notice one of the generic DF29- Z131- has ordered L1439 which is good. But the other two generics should probably test as well; there is no clue or hint yet where they branch off the main I1 tree, upstream or downstream of L1439? Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You go to just "Advanced tests" not "advanced snps" The brain dead idiots at FTDNA devised language with no other purpose than to confuse customers. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Gene Prescott Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 6:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... I'm AS1212 but don't see L1439 in Advanced SNP order list? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I did not notice you tested Z2539. Yes, that's the same as testing CTS7362. So you remain Z60+ generic. If you have money to burn you could test Z141 as it is different snp than Z140. But we have not found anyone previously who has split these two snps. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: LornaMoa Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 5:16 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I1-Z60+ (Z58+, Z59+, Z60+, Z61+, Z62+) consider ordering CTS7362/Z2539, Z140 Kenneth, Just checking I fully understand. We've already tested Z2539- so does your CTS7362= Z2539 NOT mean that they are equivalent? Lorna Henderson http://LornaHen.com On 20/01/14 13:10, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > How do you know whether or not your Z60+ haplotype is on that CTS7362 > branch > or not? You apparently are Z140- > Since your haplotype looks generic, only way to know is to test CTS7362. > You could be brave and try a snp further downstream, but if negative, then > you must try the other downstream branches. > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: LornaMoa > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 4:59 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I1-Z60+ (Z58+, Z59+, Z60+, Z61+, Z62+) consider > ordering CTS7362/Z2539, Z140 > > Thanks Kenneth. > I interpreted your diagram where it labels the branch as > > CTS7362= Z2539 > that no additional benefit would accrue. > Is that not the case? > > Lorna Henderson > http://LornaHen.com > > On 20/01/14 12:34, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: >> What about CTS7362 test? >> >> >> >> Kenneth Nordtvedt >> >> Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: >> http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: LornaMoa >> Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 4:25 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [yDNAhgI] I1-Z60+ (Z58+, Z59+, Z60+, Z61+, Z62+) consider >> ordering >> CTS7362/Z2539, Z140 >> >> Hi, >> Surfacing to see where next please for the kit representing our clutch >> of matching RUNCIMANs >> >> Kit 172347 is shown in the group >> I1-Z60+ (Z58+, Z59+, Z60+, Z61+, Z62+) consider ordering CTS7362/Z2539, >> Z140 >> >> And has so far tested >> Z59+, Z60+, Z140-, Z2539- >> >> Looking at >> http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20for%20I1%20Z60+.pptx (19 Dec) >> I interpret that as Z60+ is divided by >> Z140/Z141 >> and CTS7362/Z2539 >> >> I assume that there is no point in testing Z141 if Z140 was negative. >> >> ISOGG (18 Jan) shows >> • • • • • *I1a2a1* S337/Z60, S439/Z61, Z62 >> • • • • • • *I1a2a1** - >> • • • • • • *I1a2a1a* S440/Z140, Z141 >> • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a** - >> • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a1* S1953/Z2535 >> • • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a1** - >> • • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a1a* L338 >> • • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a1b* CTS10937/Z2538 >> • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a2* F2642/S2169 >> • • • • • • *I1a2a1b* S247/Z73 >> • • • • • • • *I1a2a1b** - >> • • • • • • • *I1a2a1b1* L1302 >> • • • • • • *I1a2a1c* L573 >> • • • • • • *I1a2a1d* L1248 >> • • • • • • • *I1a2a1d** - >> • • • • • • • *I1a2a1d1* L803 >> >> which indicates (to me) S247/Z73 or L573 or L1248 would be possibilities. >> >> Advice please. >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Got it and compared it. No new snps but you are confirmed CTS6397+ Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Robert Dozier Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 5:20 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... You should be getting it, let me know if it did not make it. Robert Dozier -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 6:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... It would surely help if you could send me your Geno2 raw data file so I could compare it to the others in my database. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Robert Dozier Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 2:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... That " A Z131+ shows L1439+ " looks like it is mine, #283278, that wasn't schedule to come in until Feb. Btw, I transferred by Geno 2 results earlier in the week, in case that helps. Robert Dozier -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 2:09 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... A Z131+ shows L1439+ moving this latter snp far upstream. But we are not done yet. There is quite a population of DF29- Z131-, and this includes two clades, AS1212 and AS121210, a cluster, and some generics. All DF29- Z131- generics should test for L1439. A representative from both clades, AS1212 and AS121210, should test for L1439, and a member of the cluster which includes Bowman, kit 194611, Nevader, and Grahm should test for L1439. See the updated “Tree for I1xZ58xL22” for the far upstream part of the I1 Tree and the still questionable node structure. I notice one of the generic DF29- Z131- has ordered L1439 which is good. But the other two generics should probably test as well; there is no clue or hint yet where they branch off the main I1 tree, upstream or downstream of L1439? Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

How do you know whether or not your Z60+ haplotype is on that CTS7362 branch or not? You apparently are Z140- Since your haplotype looks generic, only way to know is to test CTS7362. You could be brave and try a snp further downstream, but if negative, then you must try the other downstream branches. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: LornaMoa Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 4:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I1-Z60+ (Z58+, Z59+, Z60+, Z61+, Z62+) consider ordering CTS7362/Z2539, Z140 Thanks Kenneth. I interpreted your diagram where it labels the branch as CTS7362= Z2539 that no additional benefit would accrue. Is that not the case? Lorna Henderson http://LornaHen.com On 20/01/14 12:34, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > What about CTS7362 test? > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: LornaMoa > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 4:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [yDNAhgI] I1-Z60+ (Z58+, Z59+, Z60+, Z61+, Z62+) consider > ordering > CTS7362/Z2539, Z140 > > Hi, > Surfacing to see where next please for the kit representing our clutch > of matching RUNCIMANs > > Kit 172347 is shown in the group > I1-Z60+ (Z58+, Z59+, Z60+, Z61+, Z62+) consider ordering CTS7362/Z2539, > Z140 > > And has so far tested > Z59+, Z60+, Z140-, Z2539- > > Looking at > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20for%20I1%20Z60+.pptx (19 Dec) > I interpret that as Z60+ is divided by > Z140/Z141 > and CTS7362/Z2539 > > I assume that there is no point in testing Z141 if Z140 was negative. > > ISOGG (18 Jan) shows > • • • • • *I1a2a1* S337/Z60, S439/Z61, Z62 > • • • • • • *I1a2a1** - > • • • • • • *I1a2a1a* S440/Z140, Z141 > • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a** - > • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a1* S1953/Z2535 > • • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a1** - > • • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a1a* L338 > • • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a1b* CTS10937/Z2538 > • • • • • • • *I1a2a1a2* F2642/S2169 > • • • • • • *I1a2a1b* S247/Z73 > • • • • • • • *I1a2a1b** - > • • • • • • • *I1a2a1b1* L1302 > • • • • • • *I1a2a1c* L573 > • • • • • • *I1a2a1d* L1248 > • • • • • • • *I1a2a1d** - > • • • • • • • *I1a2a1d1* L803 > > which indicates (to me) S247/Z73 or L573 or L1248 would be possibilities. > > Advice please. > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message