William, Good morning. As I [briefly] alluded to in my reply to Marjorie the ASC is noted among researchers for its overly complicated system of having letter/number prefix. Certainly many infantry regiments also used a prefix but mainly in the early days to distinguish between battalions but the ASC really 'went to town' with pre war [WW1] prefix then having to re-allocate prefixes it has led to some confusion. My main references are: [1] More Sources of World War 1 Army Ancestry [Third Edition] Norman Holding1998. Holding devotes Chapter 3 [page 22] to Regimental Numbers. Pages 25/26 deals with ASC Numbers. Table 2 deals with ASC Regimental Numbers; New Armies, Horse Transport [HT] Supply, Remount and Mechanical Transport [MT]. Table 3 deals with ASC Prefixes. [2] Journals of the Order and Medal Research Society. Winter journal 1976 page 211 lists [known at the time] ASC prefixes. [3] We must remember that up until 1920 all numbers were based on the Regimental numbering system and it was not until 1920 that numbers finally changed and became Army numbers that we are familiar with today. Various Army Council Instructions [ACI] throughout the war was used as authority to increase Regimental and Corps number series. Army Order 453/1914 issued in November 1914 amended the maximum numbers that could be used by each unit. Marjorie informs us her Grandfathers number was S4/237308. By referencing that number to Table 2 in Holding's book we see that this number falls within the numbering block issued 232111 - 264000 and all numbers within this block have the prefixes; T or S or R or RX with a number 4. Moving to Table 3 in Holding and the Winter Journal 1976 a Prefix T4 or S4 or R4 are New Army and it is believed that RX 4 is also New Army though it does carry a question mark after it. At the start of the war the ASC numbered less than 7000 men [though there was of course TF ASC], by May 1915 men on establishment had risen to 130,000. By the end of the war numbers of men had risen to 400,000. Regards Peter -----Original Message----- From: ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ww1-uk-request@rootsweb.com Sent: 26 March 2013 07:01 To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 17 Today's Topics: 1. Re: WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 16 (William Thorne) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 14:39:57 +1000 From: William Thorne <thorne@acslink.net.au> Subject: Re: [WW1-UK] WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 16 To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <5151269D.4020207@acslink.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Peter Could you please give us a little more information on the ASCsoldiers number prefixes ? You mention below the "S" of Marjorie's relation, but what were the other prefixes ? I have a text book "The Royal Army Service Corps" by Graeme Crew but have not been able to find a mention there. You obviously have some very rare knowledge. How did you know he was in Kitchener's Army, if tht is what you meant by New Army ? Where can one find such information ? Thanks William Thorne (far away in Brisbane Australia) On 25/03/2013 5:01 PM, ww1-uk-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 (Peter Fellowes) > 2. Re: Medal card for Alexander Grant (Nivard Ovington) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:55:04 -0000 > From: "Peter Fellowes" <peter.fellowes@ntlworld.com> > Subject: Re: [WW1-UK] WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 > To: <ww1-uk@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <000001ce2875$a9e847e0$fdb8d7a0$@fellowes@ntlworld.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Good morning all, > > For Majorie. > > I might advise to use all numbers when doing a search even though you > now know that he was issued different numbers at different time of his > service and when changing Regiments or Corps, in general terms as wide > a search parameter as possible may yield the best results I find. > > As to the Prefix S4 during his ASC service. Yes that is part of his > number and should be used at first when doing open searches, if you > find nothing then by all means search without the S4 prefix, but I > suggest it should be used in the first case. For interest the S4 > prefix means he was a New Army Supply and his number falls within the > number block 232111 - 264000 with either a prefix T, S, R or RX 4. > > The ASC is noted for its complicated system of letter prefixes to the > numbering system but [in general] these indicated what 'the Trade or > Employment' of the man and the ASC was split into four branches. > Remount; procured and issued horses for the army. Supply; dealt with > supplies within the ASC [as opposed to the AOC]. Transport; provided > all the armies transport requirements except: Mechanical Transport; > the motorised branch of the Transport section. > > For Alan. > > It is my understanding that a man, volunteer of conscript, had at > first a medical and was required to meet at least the [very] basic > needs of that prior to formal enlistment. > > The entrance medical requirements did reduce over time. I don't think > it was a case of a man enlisting then being discharged due to not > being able to meet the medical requirements for service. > > A man would either attend a pre enlistment medical [often at the same > place and time as recruitment] and fail so not be enlisted or pass and > be enlisted and at some later time due perhaps to service or injuries > then be discharged due to being no longer required for service. > > As to records, yes if a man had passed the initial medical then was > enlisted and at some time later [months or years] was deemed no longer > fit for service due to illness or injury then there should be medical > assessments with his service papers if they survived. If a man attends > an initial medical and fails and so is not enlisted then again there > should have been records maintained at the time if only to prove that > a man attended for a medical and failed. However I doubt very much if > these individual pre enlistment medical records survive. > > Regards > Peter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of ww1-uk-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: 24 March 2013 07:01 > To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com > Subject: WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Not conscripted / failed medicals (Alan Middlemass) > 2. Medal card for Alexander Grant (Marjorie Morrison) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 09:54:19 +0000 > From: Alan Middlemass <alananne@middlemass.org.uk> > Subject: [WW1-UK] Not conscripted / failed medicals > To: WW1-UK@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <514D7BCB.4060906@middlemass.org.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > My grandfather had two younger brothers who do not appear to be in > searches of military records although apparently of age. > > It seems possible that health may have been reason for one brother > being rejected as he died of Pulmonary Tuberculosis in 1920. > > I have seen records of recruits who have been discharged on grounds of > ill-health. If either brother was rejected on health grounds I would > have thought a personal record would need to be created as proof that > they had gone through an initial stage of recruitment. > Can anyone clarify whether there were rejections on more obvious > physical/mental grounds that did not reach preliminary stages of > recruitment or are these more likely to be lost records? > > -- > Alan Middlemass > Bearpark, Durham, UK > > I have not made any attachments to this mail > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 15:00:59 -0400 (EDT) > From: Marjorie Morrison <mporteousmorriso@aol.com> > Subject: [WW1-UK] Medal card for Alexander Grant > To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <8CFF60FE3AA946C-2090-5A973@webmail-m267.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > > > Hi, Nivard, > > Yes, that is my grandfather, thank you! I am wondering which serial > number to use in order to look him up as he has a few, or do I look up > all the numbers? His serial number for the RASC is S4/237308 - is the > S4 part included in a search? . I now know from relatives that he > fought in the Somme, but not in the actual big battle and was gassed > at Passchendael (sp?) for which he received a life-long pension. > > Best wishes, > Marjorie Morrison > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 > ************************************* > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 13:54:35 +0000 > From: Nivard Ovington <ovington.one@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [WW1-UK] Medal card for Alexander Grant > To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <514F059B.1060303@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi Marjorie > > My advice is to try each and every number you have with and without > first name and or initial > > Whether any records survive for him is another matter, as I said > previously his may be among the approximately two thirds of records > that were destroyed in WW2 > > If you can get a military researcher to check the medal rolls at Kew > there may be a few more snippets on his specific service unit noted > there > > The line of service he is in is one of the hardest to research as > unlike an infantry battalion for example where you can check the war > diary, his service may not be noted in a specific area or place > > If you can work out the specific unit, you can then check the Division > and where that division was but it may be difficult even then > > I have had a look through the Alexander GRANTs in the so called > pension papers on Ancestry but not found a mention of him, it may be > worth your while to spend some time going through them again though > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 23/03/2013 19:00, Marjorie Morrison wrote: >> >> >> Hi, Nivard, >> >> Yes, that is my grandfather, thank you! I am wondering which serial >> number to use in order to look him up as he has a few, or do I look >> up all the numbers? His serial number for the RASC is S4/237308 - is >> the >> S4 part included in a search? . I now know from relatives that he >> fought in the Somme, but not in the actual big battle and was gassed >> at Passchendael (sp?) for which he received a life-long pension. >> >> Best wishes, >> Marjorie Morrison > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 16 > ************************************* > ------------------------------ End of WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 17 *************************************

Hi William This may help on that subject <http://1914-1918.net/research/index.php/find-your-soldier/soldier-faq/how-can-i-find-my-soldiers-number/letter-prefixes-to-british-army-numbers-in-ww1/> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 26/03/2013 04:39, William Thorne wrote: > Peter > > Could you please give us a little more information on the ASCsoldiers > number prefixes ? You mention below the "S" of Marjorie's relation, but > what were the other prefixes ? > > I have a text book "The Royal Army Service Corps" by Graeme Crew but > have not been able to find a mention there. You obviously have some > very rare knowledge. > > How did you know he was in Kitchener's Army, if tht is what you meant by > New Army ? Where can one find such information ? > > Thanks > > William Thorne > (far away in Brisbane Australia)

Hi Marjorie My advice is to try each and every number you have with and without first name and or initial Whether any records survive for him is another matter, as I said previously his may be among the approximately two thirds of records that were destroyed in WW2 If you can get a military researcher to check the medal rolls at Kew there may be a few more snippets on his specific service unit noted there The line of service he is in is one of the hardest to research as unlike an infantry battalion for example where you can check the war diary, his service may not be noted in a specific area or place If you can work out the specific unit, you can then check the Division and where that division was but it may be difficult even then I have had a look through the Alexander GRANTs in the so called pension papers on Ancestry but not found a mention of him, it may be worth your while to spend some time going through them again though Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 23/03/2013 19:00, Marjorie Morrison wrote: > > > > Hi, Nivard, > > Yes, that is my grandfather, thank you! I am wondering which serial > number to use in order to look him up as he has a few, or do I look up > all the numbers? His serial number for the RASC is S4/237308 - is the > S4 part included in a search? . I now know from relatives that he > fought in the Somme, but not in the actual big battle and was gassed at > Passchendael (sp?) for which he received a life-long pension. > > Best wishes, > Marjorie Morrison

Good morning all, For Majorie. I might advise to use all numbers when doing a search even though you now know that he was issued different numbers at different time of his service and when changing Regiments or Corps, in general terms as wide a search parameter as possible may yield the best results I find. As to the Prefix S4 during his ASC service. Yes that is part of his number and should be used at first when doing open searches, if you find nothing then by all means search without the S4 prefix, but I suggest it should be used in the first case. For interest the S4 prefix means he was a New Army Supply and his number falls within the number block 232111 - 264000 with either a prefix T, S, R or RX 4. The ASC is noted for its complicated system of letter prefixes to the numbering system but [in general] these indicated what 'the Trade or Employment' of the man and the ASC was split into four branches. Remount; procured and issued horses for the army. Supply; dealt with supplies within the ASC [as opposed to the AOC]. Transport; provided all the armies transport requirements except: Mechanical Transport; the motorised branch of the Transport section. For Alan. It is my understanding that a man, volunteer of conscript, had at first a medical and was required to meet at least the [very] basic needs of that prior to formal enlistment. The entrance medical requirements did reduce over time. I don't think it was a case of a man enlisting then being discharged due to not being able to meet the medical requirements for service. A man would either attend a pre enlistment medical [often at the same place and time as recruitment] and fail so not be enlisted or pass and be enlisted and at some later time due perhaps to service or injuries then be discharged due to being no longer required for service. As to records, yes if a man had passed the initial medical then was enlisted and at some time later [months or years] was deemed no longer fit for service due to illness or injury then there should be medical assessments with his service papers if they survived. If a man attends an initial medical and fails and so is not enlisted then again there should have been records maintained at the time if only to prove that a man attended for a medical and failed. However I doubt very much if these individual pre enlistment medical records survive. Regards Peter -----Original Message----- From: ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ww1-uk-request@rootsweb.com Sent: 24 March 2013 07:01 To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 Today's Topics: 1. Not conscripted / failed medicals (Alan Middlemass) 2. Medal card for Alexander Grant (Marjorie Morrison) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 09:54:19 +0000 From: Alan Middlemass <alananne@middlemass.org.uk> Subject: [WW1-UK] Not conscripted / failed medicals To: WW1-UK@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <514D7BCB.4060906@middlemass.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed My grandfather had two younger brothers who do not appear to be in searches of military records although apparently of age. It seems possible that health may have been reason for one brother being rejected as he died of Pulmonary Tuberculosis in 1920. I have seen records of recruits who have been discharged on grounds of ill-health. If either brother was rejected on health grounds I would have thought a personal record would need to be created as proof that they had gone through an initial stage of recruitment. Can anyone clarify whether there were rejections on more obvious physical/mental grounds that did not reach preliminary stages of recruitment or are these more likely to be lost records? -- Alan Middlemass Bearpark, Durham, UK I have not made any attachments to this mail ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 15:00:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Marjorie Morrison <mporteousmorriso@aol.com> Subject: [WW1-UK] Medal card for Alexander Grant To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <8CFF60FE3AA946C-2090-5A973@webmail-m267.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi, Nivard, Yes, that is my grandfather, thank you! I am wondering which serial number to use in order to look him up as he has a few, or do I look up all the numbers? His serial number for the RASC is S4/237308 - is the S4 part included in a search? . I now know from relatives that he fought in the Somme, but not in the actual big battle and was gassed at Passchendael (sp?) for which he received a life-long pension. Best wishes, Marjorie Morrison ------------------------------ End of WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 15 *************************************

Hi, Nivard, Yes, that is my grandfather, thank you! I am wondering which serial number to use in order to look him up as he has a few, or do I look up all the numbers? His serial number for the RASC is S4/237308 - is the S4 part included in a search? . I now know from relatives that he fought in the Somme, but not in the actual big battle and was gassed at Passchendael (sp?) for which he received a life-long pension. Best wishes, Marjorie Morrison

My grandfather had two younger brothers who do not appear to be in searches of military records although apparently of age. It seems possible that health may have been reason for one brother being rejected as he died of Pulmonary Tuberculosis in 1920. I have seen records of recruits who have been discharged on grounds of ill-health. If either brother was rejected on health grounds I would have thought a personal record would need to be created as proof that they had gone through an initial stage of recruitment. Can anyone clarify whether there were rejections on more obvious physical/mental grounds that did not reach preliminary stages of recruitment or are these more likely to be lost records? -- Alan Middlemass Bearpark, Durham, UK I have not made any attachments to this mail

Hi Marjorie Could this be your man? GRANT, ALEXANDER, s. of John G. ; b. Aberdeen, 22 Dec. 1895. Com., 191 9 — . Pte., 4th Gordon Hrs. (T.), 1913. Mobilized, Aug. 1914. Commd., R.G.A. (S.R.), 14 Nov. 191 7. Served — Home, 1914-15, 1917-18, 1918-19; France, May 1915-June 1917, Jan.-Mar. 1918. Final rank. Lieutenant. From <http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/university-of-aberdeen/roll-of-service-in-the-great-war-1914-1919-hci/page-26-roll-of-service-in-the-great-war-1914-1919-hci.shtml> Re the medal card What parts were you not understanding? He was first in the Territorials before the War in the 4th Gordon Highlanders Mobilized August 1914 (ie called up for full time service) Then with the Army Service Corps as acting Squadron? Quartermaster Sergeant He was Commissioned in the Royal Garrison Artillery 24th November 1917 More on the ASC later the Royal Army Service Corps http://www.1914-1918.net/asc.htm The Gordon Highlanders http://www.1914-1918.net/gordon.htm RGA or Royal Garrison Artillery http://www.1914-1918.net/siege-battery-index.htm He appears to have served in supply mainly The small crosses against the name or number on the medal card denote the name/number used on the medal rim when issued Like so many others his service record may have been destroyed in WW2 when approx two thirds of WW1 service records were lost You may need to employ a researcher at Kew to get more on him Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 21/03/2013 23:12, Marjorie Morrison wrote: > My grandfather, Alexander Grant, was a private in the 4th Gordon > Highlanders (T), 1913, mobilized, Aug 1914. However, I am finding his > medal card hard to understand and I don't have a clue as to where I > should go to find out more about his war service. The information on > the medal card is > > CORPS Gordon High, Corporal, Regt No - 820 is scored out and 154 > written in above > > CORPS ASC, rank of a/SQMS, Regt No S4/237308 > > CORPS RGA, rank of 2/Lieut > > Underneath is written R+F roll Rasc/101B174/17800 > > Comm RGA > Commissioned 24.11.17 > > > > Victory Medal(x),RGA roll OFF/139 , page 187,remark IV/4966/W of > 12/9/21 > > British Medal, roll and page as above, remark EF/2/647315 > > Star Medal, roll Rasc/1C7, page 1095 > > Remark (x) for Victory Medal, Rgtl No amended ????? Authy EF/2/6473 > > THEATRE OF WAR FIRST SERVED IN > (1) France > > Date of Entry therein 1-5-15 > Remark Rgt No amended auth 63A RASC/2B > > EF/2/6473 > > Any help gratefully appreciated, Marjorie >

Hi Marjorie Could this be your man? GRANT, ALEXANDER, s. of John G. ; b. Aberdeen, 22 Dec. 1895. Com., 191 9 — . Pte., 4th Gordon Hrs. (T.), 1913. Mobilized, Aug. 1914. Commd., R.G.A. (S.R.), 14 Nov. 191 7. Served — Home, 1914-15, 1917-18, 1918-19; France, May 1915-June 1917, Jan.-Mar. 1918. Final rank. Lieutenant. From <http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/university-of-aberdeen/roll-of-service-in-the-great-war-1914-1919-hci/page-26-roll-of-service-in-the-great-war-1914-1919-hci.shtml> Re the medal card What parts were you not understanding? He was first in the Territorials before the War in the 4th Gordon Highlanders Mobilized August 1914 (ie called up for full time service) Then with the Army Service Corps as acting Squadron? Quartermaster Sergeant He was Commissioned in the Royal Garrison Artillery 24th November 1917 More on the ASC later the Royal Army Service Corps http://www.1914-1918.net/asc.htm The Gordon Highlanders http://www.1914-1918.net/gordon.htm RGA or Royal Garrison Artillery http://www.1914-1918.net/siege-battery-index.htm He appears to have served in supply mainly The small crosses against the name or number on the medal card denote the name/number used on the medal rim when issued Like so many others his service record may have been destroyed in WW2 when approx two thirds of WW1 service records were lost You may need to employ a researcher at Kew to get more on him Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 21/03/2013 23:12, Marjorie Morrison wrote: > My grandfather, Alexander Grant, was a private in the 4th Gordon > Highlanders (T), 1913, mobilized, Aug 1914. However, I am finding his > medal card hard to understand and I don't have a clue as to where I > should go to find out more about his war service. The information on > the medal card is > > CORPS Gordon High, Corporal, Regt No - 820 is scored out and 154 > written in above > > CORPS ASC, rank of a/SQMS, Regt No S4/237308 > > CORPS RGA, rank of 2/Lieut > > Underneath is written R+F roll Rasc/101B174/17800 > > Comm RGA > Commissioned 24.11.17 > > > > Victory Medal(x),RGA roll OFF/139 , page 187,remark IV/4966/W of > 12/9/21 > > British Medal, roll and page as above, remark EF/2/647315 > > Star Medal, roll Rasc/1C7, page 1095 > > Remark (x) for Victory Medal, Rgtl No amended ????? Authy EF/2/6473 > > THEATRE OF WAR FIRST SERVED IN > (1) France > > Date of Entry therein 1-5-15 > Remark Rgt No amended auth 63A RASC/2B > > EF/2/6473 > > Any help gratefully appreciated, Marjorie >

My grandfather, Alexander Grant, was a private in the 4th Gordon Highlanders (T), 1913, mobilized, Aug 1914. However, I am finding his medal card hard to understand and I don't have a clue as to where I should go to find out more about his war service. The information on the medal card is CORPS Gordon High, Corporal, Regt No - 820 is scored out and 154 written in above CORPS ASC, rank of a/SQMS, Regt No S4/237308 CORPS RGA, rank of 2/Lieut Underneath is written R+F roll Rasc/101B174/17800 Comm RGA Commissioned 24.11.17 Victory Medal(x),RGA roll OFF/139 , page 187,remark IV/4966/W of 12/9/21 British Medal, roll and page as above, remark EF/2/647315 Star Medal, roll Rasc/1C7, page 1095 Remark (x) for Victory Medal, Rgtl No amended ????? Authy EF/2/6473 THEATRE OF WAR FIRST SERVED IN (1) France Date of Entry therein 1-5-15 Remark Rgt No amended auth 63A RASC/2B EF/2/6473 Any help gratefully appreciated, Marjorie

Hello James, Firstly he is wearing the 'Standard' 1908 Jacket; breast pockets have a box pleat and each shoulder has the 'rifle patch'. The Chevron I have seen before in pictures in the following works; British Battle Insignia [1] 1914-18 by Mike Chappell. Colour illustration D 10 shows a Company Quartermaster Sergeant, 2nd Battalion Tyneside Scottish 34 Division 1916 wearing the same pattern chevrons. In the same book. Colour illustration A 1 shows a Corporal [Bomber] C Company 8th Battalion Kings Royal Rifle Corps 14th Division September 1915 wearing the same pattern chevrons. However [same book] Illustration C 1 shows a Bombardier Royal Field Artillery 15th Division 1918 wearing on his lower left sleeve two Good Conduct Badges [Chevrons] indicating more than five years service and these 'Chevrons' are the same pattern shown on your photo. Though sadly the author in his captions omits to mention any of these chevrons as an item. In Uniforms and Equipment of the British Army in World War 1 by Stephen J Chambers. On page 304 is a black and white photo showing a group of six men side on, this is a posed studio photo with the arm of the man behind resting on the shoulder of the man in front. The caption mentions that these six men are Welsh Regiment NCOs and draws attention to the 38th [Welsh] Division sign each wears top of the left arm just below the shoulder. However the second man in the line is a Lance Corporal [one chevron] and the fifth man in the line is a Sergeant [three chevrons] and the chevrons both these men wear are the same as in your photo. The other men in the photo [except the first man who is a Warrant Officer] all wear 'the standard' chevrons; a sergeant a Corporal and Colour Sergeant. Again sadly the author makes no mention of the difference of chevron types between these men. Now there might be case to put that perhaps due to local shortages at times during the war that some men on promotion wore the Good Conduct Badge [Chevron]as the badge of rank. It is only an idea nothing more. Back to your photo, I have tried to enlarge it as much as I can before it becomes a blur of pixels and though I am unable to read the name of the Regiment I might have a guess that the item above is a letter T with a number below it, perhaps the number 1, however that does not help too much as many Regiments carried such an insignia with a Letter/ Number combination. Regards Peter -----Original Message----- From: ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ww1-uk-request@rootsweb.com Sent: 16 March 2013 07:01 To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 11 Today's Topics: 1. Identification (James Bunker) 2. Re: Identification (Nivard Ovington) 3. Re: Identification (James Bunker) 4. Re: Identification (Nivard Ovington) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:06:38 +0000 From: James Bunker <james@jamesbunker.com> Subject: [WW1-UK] Identification To: WW1-UK@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CALhAKoyctYOozx4+2Fds_6QL1R1U=W4YUB89kyu1g1akAox69Q@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello, I was wondering if anyone could help identify the regiment of the man in this picture. I can see he's a Lance Corporal but I don't know if the pattern on the chevrons hold any clues? http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesbunker/8545498312/in/photostream/ Cheers James ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 17:05:14 +0000 From: Nivard Ovington <ovington1@sky.com> Subject: Re: [WW1-UK] Identification To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <514354CA.9010300@sky.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi James I haven't seen stripes quite like it although a search for others did find a similar one Whether it was a locally manufactured one I don't know Not sure if its more specific to a unit but don't think so The only other identifier I can see in the photo is the shoulder badge With the angle of the stance its hard to be sure but a few possible spring to mind The Shropshire Yeomanry The Nottinghamshire Hussars Durham Light Infantry Shropshire Light Infantry Ox & Bucks Light Infantry The horn on the last four are actually opposite to the way it seems to appear in the photo but its hard to tell for sure Do you not have a name Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 15/03/2013 15:06, James Bunker wrote: > Hello, > > I was wondering if anyone could help identify the regiment of the man > in this picture. > > I can see he's a Lance Corporal but I don't know if the pattern on the > chevrons hold any clues? > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesbunker/8545498312/in/photostream/ > > Cheers > > James ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 19:27:03 +0000 From: James Bunker <james@jamesbunker.com> Subject: Re: [WW1-UK] Identification To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <8B2D2150-4B73-4034-89DD-87DEDCAC3D45@jamesbunker.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Nivard, Thanks for your help - I will look into those a little deeper. Unfortunately, I don't have a name (or rather, I have several as this photo is from a family collection) so I'm having to work in reverse here. Whilst on the subject of shoulder badges, can anyone also explain the 'TR' shoulder badge (presumably for Training Reserve) and whether this was used over several regiments or specific ones? All the best, James On 15 Mar 2013, at 17:05, Nivard Ovington <ovington1@sky.com> wrote: > Hi James > > I haven't seen stripes quite like it although a search for others did > find a similar one > > Whether it was a locally manufactured one I don't know > > Not sure if its more specific to a unit but don't think so > > The only other identifier I can see in the photo is the shoulder badge > > With the angle of the stance its hard to be sure but a few possible > spring to mind > > The Shropshire Yeomanry > > The Nottinghamshire Hussars > > Durham Light Infantry > > Shropshire Light Infantry > > Ox & Bucks Light Infantry > > The horn on the last four are actually opposite to the way it seems to > appear in the photo but its hard to tell for sure > > Do you not have a name > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 15/03/2013 15:06, James Bunker wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I was wondering if anyone could help identify the regiment of the man >> in this picture. >> >> I can see he's a Lance Corporal but I don't know if the pattern on >> the chevrons hold any clues? >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesbunker/8545498312/in/photostream/ >> >> Cheers >> >> James > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WW1-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 19:55:42 +0000 From: Nivard Ovington <ovington1@sky.com> Subject: Re: [WW1-UK] Identification To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <51437CBE.5030806@sky.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi again Where are you seeing the TR badge ? Training Reserve is certainly the most likely For more on the Training Reserve see http://www.1914-1918.net/training_reserve.htm Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 15/03/2013 19:27, James Bunker wrote: > Hi Nivard, > > Thanks for your help - I will look into those a little deeper. > > Unfortunately, I don't have a name (or rather, I have several as this photo is from a family collection) so I'm having to work in reverse here. > > Whilst on the subject of shoulder badges, can anyone also explain the 'TR' shoulder badge (presumably for Training Reserve) and whether this was used over several regiments or specific ones? > > All the best, > > James ------------------------------ End of WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 11 *************************************

Hi again Where are you seeing the TR badge ? Training Reserve is certainly the most likely For more on the Training Reserve see http://www.1914-1918.net/training_reserve.htm Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 15/03/2013 19:27, James Bunker wrote: > Hi Nivard, > > Thanks for your help - I will look into those a little deeper. > > Unfortunately, I don't have a name (or rather, I have several as this photo is from a family collection) so I'm having to work in reverse here. > > Whilst on the subject of shoulder badges, can anyone also explain the 'TR' shoulder badge (presumably for Training Reserve) and whether this was used over several regiments or specific ones? > > All the best, > > James

Hi Nivard, Thanks for your help - I will look into those a little deeper. Unfortunately, I don't have a name (or rather, I have several as this photo is from a family collection) so I'm having to work in reverse here. Whilst on the subject of shoulder badges, can anyone also explain the 'TR' shoulder badge (presumably for Training Reserve) and whether this was used over several regiments or specific ones? All the best, James On 15 Mar 2013, at 17:05, Nivard Ovington <ovington1@sky.com> wrote: > Hi James > > I haven't seen stripes quite like it although a search for others did > find a similar one > > Whether it was a locally manufactured one I don't know > > Not sure if its more specific to a unit but don't think so > > The only other identifier I can see in the photo is the shoulder badge > > With the angle of the stance its hard to be sure but a few possible > spring to mind > > The Shropshire Yeomanry > > The Nottinghamshire Hussars > > Durham Light Infantry > > Shropshire Light Infantry > > Ox & Bucks Light Infantry > > The horn on the last four are actually opposite to the way it seems to > appear in the photo but its hard to tell for sure > > Do you not have a name > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 15/03/2013 15:06, James Bunker wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I was wondering if anyone could help identify the regiment of the man in >> this picture. >> >> I can see he's a Lance Corporal but I don't know if the pattern on the >> chevrons hold any clues? >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesbunker/8545498312/in/photostream/ >> >> Cheers >> >> James > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WW1-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi James I haven't seen stripes quite like it although a search for others did find a similar one Whether it was a locally manufactured one I don't know Not sure if its more specific to a unit but don't think so The only other identifier I can see in the photo is the shoulder badge With the angle of the stance its hard to be sure but a few possible spring to mind The Shropshire Yeomanry The Nottinghamshire Hussars Durham Light Infantry Shropshire Light Infantry Ox & Bucks Light Infantry The horn on the last four are actually opposite to the way it seems to appear in the photo but its hard to tell for sure Do you not have a name Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 15/03/2013 15:06, James Bunker wrote: > Hello, > > I was wondering if anyone could help identify the regiment of the man in > this picture. > > I can see he's a Lance Corporal but I don't know if the pattern on the > chevrons hold any clues? > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesbunker/8545498312/in/photostream/ > > Cheers > > James

Hello, I was wondering if anyone could help identify the regiment of the man in this picture. I can see he's a Lance Corporal but I don't know if the pattern on the chevrons hold any clues? http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesbunker/8545498312/in/photostream/ Cheers James

Gareth Are you aware that there is a photo of Samuel Sankey and his wife Emily. I think it is your Samuel as it says in an explanation "Samuel Sankey outside his railway caravan with his wife, Emily Price. The van was bought after his return from the Gold Coast." Coming from Australia I thought of our Gold Coast, then I recalled that The *"Gold Coast"* was a British <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom> colony <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony> on the Gulf of Guinea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Guinea> in west Africa that became the independent nation of Ghana <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana> in 1957. (ex Wikipedia). I think this Samuel was boarding in Essex in 1901 and in Merthyr in 1911. Does that tie in with your research? William Thorne On 9/03/2013 6:01 PM, ww1-uk-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Samuel Sankey, Royal Engineers (Gareth Jenkins) > 2. Re: Samuel Sankey, Royal Engineers (Nivard Ovington) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:27:04 +0000 > From: Gareth Jenkins <gareth_j@hotmail.com> > Subject: [WW1-UK] Samuel Sankey, Royal Engineers > To: "WW1-UK@rootsweb.com" <ww1-uk@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <DUB002-W61BCF4FFB4A77F2B9062DF7E60@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I have found online a Medal Index Card relating to my great grandfather Samuel Latham Sankey but I can?t understand all of what it tells me. According to the occupation listed on his son?s Marriage Certificate (May 1915) he was a Sergeant in the Royal Engineers. Can anyone please help me interpret it? Starting at the top the card shows:D.I.V. 3A 13.1.86 - Samuel would have been about 16 at that date (born 1869). What is D.I.V. 3A?Attd Nigeria R - Regiment?T/Sgt - Is this Temporary Sergeant?Resumed Civil Duties - but it doesn?t say when.EF/4/6079 - this appears on the card three times, was it his service number? I can?t find a service record anywhere, just this MIC. IVX2992d/20.7.22 EF/4/6079 - not a clue what this might be!!Theatre of War 4.C. - I believe this is Cameroun/Kamerun, West Africa.22/5/22 - to what might this date refer? > I?ve also found Samuel?s name on passenger lists to and fro West Africa (mostly Nigeria) several times, the earliest being 1906 and the latest 1918. Sometimes he is Mr S L Sankey, sometimes Sgt S L Sankey but on one of the passenger lists (October 1916, ship the Apapa, Liverpool to Iddo) his occupation is shown as "Col Govt Service". Other passengers are "Soldier", "Engine Driver" "Platelayer" "Fitter" etc very few are described as Col Govt Service. I suppose they must have been going to build, repair or run a railway but I haven?t yet found out which.I hope someone can help me to unravel all this! Is there any way to find his service record to fill in some missing bits? I believe he may have fought in the Boer War too, but can?t trace his record there either. I know he died in Birmingham in 1931 so he survived both conflicts. > Gareth Jenkins > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 15:14:08 +0000 > From: Nivard Ovington <ovington1@sky.com> > Subject: Re: [WW1-UK] Samuel Sankey, Royal Engineers > To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <513A0040.8030308@sky.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi Gareth > > Both passenger lists and marriage certs are known to be notoriously > inaccurate, fathers occupations on marriage certs are often embellished > > Passenger lists were a very quickly drawn up document, often with little > care and columns are often overlapped, ages fudged and generally > although useful records are not to be entirely relied upon > > In all the to'ing and fro'ing on the passenger lists what appears to be > your man is mostly a plate layer, or a labourer and on only one occasion > a Sergeant - soldier (Sept 1915) on one the birth year is 1879, either > could be a mix up by the clerk writing the passenger list up (details > were taken from other forms and records) > > Or were there two S L SANKEYs ? > > From the details I have found I presume your man is the one born > Birmingham in 1869? registered Aston) > > He is in the various census except 1901 which might hint at a stint in > the Boer War however he does not appear in either the Chelsea pension > records or Boer War medal rolls , his wife is there in 1901 but Samuel > could as easily be working away and either missed in the census or > mistranscribed > > His service record for WW1 was probably lost in WW2 as so many more were > > From what I have seen so far and from his age he joined the the Army in > 1914 but due to his age and experience of railways he was possibly put > under the RE or ASC in a labour company (although why its not stated on > his medal card is a mystery) > > He was then attached to the Nigerian Railway probably as a supervisor or > foreman given his knowledge > > For more on the labour companies see > <http://www.1914-1918.net/re_rlwy_cos.htm> > > My interpretation of his medal card > > DIV 3A 13-1-86 > (I do not think this is a date but rather an internal reference) > > SANKEY Samuel Leatham on 15 star roll Col/5/40 (page) 12 > > Corps = Attached Nigeria Railway > Rank = Temporary Sergeant > > Was eligible for = > Victory medal Col/162B page 15 > British War Medal Col/162B page 15 > 1915 Star Col/5/40 page 12 > > Remarks > Resumed Civil Duties > > IVX2992d/20.7.22 EF/4/6079 > (or IXX?) > > (I would say the EF/4/6079 is an internal reference by the medal records > department) > > Christian name amended w/lin? 1 EF4/6079 > > Theatre of War first served in = 4c (= Cameroon) > Date of entry therein 19th Sep 1914 > > It may take a military researcher at Kew to get more on this man, there > may be other records there which are not available online > > I presume you are aware that there are some pictures in an Ancestry tree > of this man? > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 08/03/2013 08:27, Gareth Jenkins wrote: >> I have found online a Medal Index Card relating to my great >> grandfather Samuel Latham Sankey but I can?t understand all of what >> it tells me. According to the occupation listed on his son?s Marriage >> Certificate (May 1915) he was a Sergeant in the Royal Engineers. Can >> anyone please help me interpret it? Starting at the top the card >> shows:D.I.V. 3A 13.1.86 - Samuel would have been about 16 at that >> date (born 1869). What is D.I.V. 3A?Attd Nigeria R - >> Regiment?T/Sgt - Is this Temporary Sergeant?Resumed >> Civil Duties - but it doesn?t say when.EF/4/6079 - this >> appears on the card three times, was it his service number? I can?t >> find a service record anywhere, just this MIC. IVX2992d/20.7.22 >> EF/4/6079 - not a clue what this might be!!Theatre of War 4.C. - I >> believe this is Cameroun/Kamerun, West Africa.22/5/22 - >> to what might this date refer? I?ve also found Samuel?s name on >> passenger lists to and fro West Africa (mostly Nigeria) several >> times, the earliest being 1906 and the latest 1918. Sometimes he is >> Mr S L Sankey, sometimes Sgt S L Sankey but on one of the passenger >> lists (October 1916, ship the Apapa, Liverpool to Iddo) his >> occupation is shown as "Col Govt Service". Other passengers are >> "Soldier", "Engine Driver" "Platelayer" "Fitter" etc very few are >> described as Col Govt Service. I suppose they must have been going to >> build, repair or run a railway but I haven?t yet found out which.I >> hope someone can help me to unravel all this! Is there any way to >> find his service record to fill in some missing bits? I believe he >> may have fought in the Boer War too, but can?t trace his record there >> either. I know he died in Birmingham in 1931 so he survived both >> conflicts. Gareth Jenkins > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 9 > ************************************ >

Hi Gareth Both passenger lists and marriage certs are known to be notoriously inaccurate, fathers occupations on marriage certs are often embellished Passenger lists were a very quickly drawn up document, often with little care and columns are often overlapped, ages fudged and generally although useful records are not to be entirely relied upon In all the to'ing and fro'ing on the passenger lists what appears to be your man is mostly a plate layer, or a labourer and on only one occasion a Sergeant - soldier (Sept 1915) on one the birth year is 1879, either could be a mix up by the clerk writing the passenger list up (details were taken from other forms and records) Or were there two S L SANKEYs ? From the details I have found I presume your man is the one born Birmingham in 1869? registered Aston) He is in the various census except 1901 which might hint at a stint in the Boer War however he does not appear in either the Chelsea pension records or Boer War medal rolls , his wife is there in 1901 but Samuel could as easily be working away and either missed in the census or mistranscribed His service record for WW1 was probably lost in WW2 as so many more were From what I have seen so far and from his age he joined the the Army in 1914 but due to his age and experience of railways he was possibly put under the RE or ASC in a labour company (although why its not stated on his medal card is a mystery) He was then attached to the Nigerian Railway probably as a supervisor or foreman given his knowledge For more on the labour companies see <http://www.1914-1918.net/re_rlwy_cos.htm> My interpretation of his medal card DIV 3A 13-1-86 (I do not think this is a date but rather an internal reference) SANKEY Samuel Leatham on 15 star roll Col/5/40 (page) 12 Corps = Attached Nigeria Railway Rank = Temporary Sergeant Was eligible for = Victory medal Col/162B page 15 British War Medal Col/162B page 15 1915 Star Col/5/40 page 12 Remarks Resumed Civil Duties IVX2992d/20.7.22 EF/4/6079 (or IXX?) (I would say the EF/4/6079 is an internal reference by the medal records department) Christian name amended w/lin? 1 EF4/6079 Theatre of War first served in = 4c (= Cameroon) Date of entry therein 19th Sep 1914 It may take a military researcher at Kew to get more on this man, there may be other records there which are not available online I presume you are aware that there are some pictures in an Ancestry tree of this man? Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 08/03/2013 08:27, Gareth Jenkins wrote: > I have found online a Medal Index Card relating to my great > grandfather Samuel Latham Sankey but I can´t understand all of what > it tells me. According to the occupation listed on his son´s Marriage > Certificate (May 1915) he was a Sergeant in the Royal Engineers. Can > anyone please help me interpret it? Starting at the top the card > shows:D.I.V. 3A 13.1.86 - Samuel would have been about 16 at that > date (born 1869). What is D.I.V. 3A?Attd Nigeria R - > Regiment?T/Sgt - Is this Temporary Sergeant?Resumed > Civil Duties - but it doesn´t say when.EF/4/6079 - this > appears on the card three times, was it his service number? I can´t > find a service record anywhere, just this MIC. IVX2992d/20.7.22 > EF/4/6079 - not a clue what this might be!!Theatre of War 4.C. - I > believe this is Cameroun/Kamerun, West Africa.22/5/22 - > to what might this date refer? I´ve also found Samuel´s name on > passenger lists to and fro West Africa (mostly Nigeria) several > times, the earliest being 1906 and the latest 1918. Sometimes he is > Mr S L Sankey, sometimes Sgt S L Sankey but on one of the passenger > lists (October 1916, ship the Apapa, Liverpool to Iddo) his > occupation is shown as "Col Govt Service". Other passengers are > "Soldier", "Engine Driver" "Platelayer" "Fitter" etc very few are > described as Col Govt Service. I suppose they must have been going to > build, repair or run a railway but I haven´t yet found out which.I > hope someone can help me to unravel all this! Is there any way to > find his service record to fill in some missing bits? I believe he > may have fought in the Boer War too, but can´t trace his record there > either. I know he died in Birmingham in 1931 so he survived both > conflicts. Gareth Jenkins

I have found online a Medal Index Card relating to my great grandfather Samuel Latham Sankey but I can´t understand all of what it tells me. According to the occupation listed on his son´s Marriage Certificate (May 1915) he was a Sergeant in the Royal Engineers. Can anyone please help me interpret it? Starting at the top the card shows:D.I.V. 3A 13.1.86 - Samuel would have been about 16 at that date (born 1869). What is D.I.V. 3A?Attd Nigeria R - Regiment?T/Sgt - Is this Temporary Sergeant?Resumed Civil Duties - but it doesn´t say when.EF/4/6079 - this appears on the card three times, was it his service number? I can´t find a service record anywhere, just this MIC. IVX2992d/20.7.22 EF/4/6079 - not a clue what this might be!!Theatre of War 4.C. - I believe this is Cameroun/Kamerun, West Africa.22/5/22 - to what might this date refer? I´ve also found Samuel´s name on passenger lists to and fro West Africa (mostly Nigeria) several times, the earliest being 1906 and the latest 1918. Sometimes he is Mr S L Sankey, sometimes Sgt S L Sankey but on one of the passenger lists (October 1916, ship the Apapa, Liverpool to Iddo) his occupation is shown as "Col Govt Service". Other passengers are "Soldier", "Engine Driver" "Platelayer" "Fitter" etc very few are described as Col Govt Service. I suppose they must have been going to build, repair or run a railway but I haven´t yet found out which.I hope someone can help me to unravel all this! Is there any way to find his service record to fill in some missing bits? I believe he may have fought in the Boer War too, but can´t trace his record there either. I know he died in Birmingham in 1931 so he survived both conflicts. Gareth Jenkins

Hi Peter, Many thanks for that information.I thought that was 7 roses but now you have pointed it out I can see that it is "&" Sorry about the confusion but I feel a bit that way too when it comes to his record:-) I do have his MGC ( What is an MGC?) Record card where it says he was surplus to military requirements due to his having suffered impairments since entry to the service. So you are quite right. He also has Chevrons one -red and two -blue. What would they be for? I did ask the army records way back in 1978 about the Military medal that he was supposed to have. I have seen the medals and it certainly looks like a Military medal but the army says they have no record of it Unfortunately I have only seen a photo but not seen what it has on the rim. I did try scrolling through the London Gazettes around the time he has supposedly been awarded the Military Medal but can't find it 8th July 1918 is the date. I can send you privately a photo if you like He did apply for a pension in 1922 because of his bronchitis but was refused . The result of the Pension Claim was that it was rejected on the ground that the disability is not attributable to service ( b) that it is not aggravated by service. The disability GSW(gun shot wound) Rt Arm has already been accepted by the Ministry as due to service Regional Number 11. M. 124065 . Heading is Pensions Appeal Tribunal (Entitlement) I have been able to find him under the Pension records on Ancestry so don't know whether this allowance comes under Pension or not I have ordered a book online Captain J.C. Dunn Title: The War The Infantry Knew: 1914-1919: A Chronicle about the 2RWF so hopefully that will tell me as much as the museum many thanks for your help and advice. Cheers Marilyn from Western Australia At 08:12 PM 18/02/2013, you wrote: >Hi Marilyn, > >Your post is a little confusing, however a few points in no particular >order. > >You are correct; his details are: James Bernard Bishop, he served firstly >with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers as 10983 Private Bishop. Later he transferred >to the Machine Gun Corps and became 138513 Pte Bishop. >Royal Welsh Fusiliers Museum. They are fobbing you off with a story that >their curator has retired and that they are unable to help. It may well be >that the last curator has retired and that they may or may not have employed >someone else. It is a museum and they hold an extensive archive of photos, >documents and a complete collection of the War Diaries. Now to be fair to >the museum, they do say viewing by appointment and I do take the point that >you are in Australia, but if you did wish to study a particular period of >the RWF during the time James Bishop served with them, even if it is only to >extract information from the War Diaries then you could employ or engage >someone here to visit on your behalf; before any listers here think I might >be touting for business I assure all I do not do this. > >Museum details: Queens Towers, Caernarfon Castle, Caernarfan, Gwynedd. LL55 >2AY Phone: 01286 673362. > >Medals. You have mis-read his MIC slightly [an easy mistake I know]. > >He was awarded the 1914 Star with effect his deployment to France as a >member of the RWF on the 13th August 1914. The 1914 Star was authorized in >1917. > >At some point in time [not 25th October 1917 as you mention] he was wounded >and discharged and as a result became eligible and was awarded the Silver >War Badge. The SWB was authorized in September 1916 and each badge was >individually numbered on the back. The badge was worn by discharged >servicemen in civilian clothes to show that they had served their country >and had been discharged due to sickness or wounds. > >Later and at the end of hostilities he was awarded the British War Medal and >the Victory Medal. Both these medals were authorized in 1919. > >You mention he was awarded a Clasp and 7 Roses to the 1914 Star. This is >where you have mis-read the MIC. It states he [as everyone who qualified >did] was awarded a Clasp and Rosette to the 1914 Star. The Clasp bearing the >inscription: 5 August and 22 November 1914 was attached to the medal ribbon >when wearing the medal. A small silver rosette was attached to the medal >ribbon when not wearing medal but just the ribbon bar itself. The Clasp and >Rosette was authorized in 1919. > >You say he was discharged as being Surplus to Military Requirements. >Equipment and Material are disposed of as being Surplus to Requirements not >Men. If you have his service papers somewhere it will state the authority >for discharge; it will say something like: > > Para 392 [xvia] Kings Regulation 1912. > >Which relates to soldiers who having suffered an impairment since entering >military service [a] during war service or [b] during demobilization being >surplus for the time being to the requirements of men in certain medical >categories and is found suffering from any impairment since entry into >military service but whom the medical board consider as fit for a medical >category will be discharged or transferred under Class xvia. Well he did >suffer impairment during service; he was wounded, awarded the SWB and >discharged. As a wounded man he would have been placed into a medical >category, it was all those hundreds [or thousands] of other men in the same >medical category that he was surplus to and therefore discharged. > > Military Medal. > >Not sure where you have information re his award of the MM, he may have I >don't know. The National Archives have the MM Index Cards on the Documents >Online where you can search by Name, Number Unit. Not sure if you have to >pay for access or not. The MM Index is held under WO372/23. > >You could also try searching the London Gazette. There is a nominal index of >MM awards again by name, number or unit but knowing the working of the >London Gazette I would search by Name if you fancy a go and have a few days >to spare. >Neither the London Gazette or the NA will tell you what the award was for, >there will be no citation it will only confirm or not if he was awarded the >MM. > >Hope some of this helps. > >Regards > >Peter > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On >Behalf Of ww1-uk-request@rootsweb.com >Sent: 17 February 2013 08:01 >To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com >Subject: WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 7 > > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. JAMES BERNARD BISHOP 2 RWF WW1 (Watson Family) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 12:48:35 +0800 >From: Watson Family <watsonb@iinet.com.au> >Subject: [WW1-UK] JAMES BERNARD BISHOP 2 RWF WW1 >To: WW1-UK@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20130217124043.01c68110@mail.iinet.net.au> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Hi , >I have accessed all the records that are available at National Archives >regarding JAMES BERNARD BISHOP and tried the Royal Welch Fusiliers to get >more information regarding their campaigns during the WW1 but their museum >Curator has retired and they are unable to help. >I thought someone may have gone to the RWF previously and may be able to >help me or advise me These are all the facts that I have > > > >James Bernard Bishop >Date of First Attestation was 28 Nov 1911.This would have been when he >enrolled and swore the oath of allegiance to the Queen. He enlisted in the >army at Wrexham 28th March 1912. >He was in the Royal Welsh Fuseliers 10983 then the Machine Gun Corps 138513. >His discharge was 24 Feb 1919 Demob. He was awarded the 1914 Star, British >War medal and The Victory Medal.He was discharged as being surplus to >Military requirements, Having suffered impairments since entry to the >service. After serving six years 333 days with colours and nil years 264 >days in the Army Reserve. Date of discharge 14th November 1919. signed by >MGC records Alexandra Palace. He has his date of birth 1892 (was 1893) Marks >or scars Tatoo marks:Cross + Pierced heart back of left forearm.His height >is 5' 7" Complexion fresh eyes brown and hair fair. >His service during the war was 4 years and 7 months in the MGC 5.3.1914 to >24.2.1919. Pre War 2 years and 7 months 29 Mar 1912 to4 Mar 1914. He >supposedly was awarded a Military Medal 3.7.1918 but no evidence of this can >be found. The army has no record of him receiving this. He has the 1914 Star >and was awarded a clasp of 7 roses to the Star issued 25 October 1917. >This was when he was wounded in the arm and went to England to recover at >Hawarden Castle Flintshire, the Hospital for the regiment.He went to France >13.August 1914. He also received the British War Medal and the Victory Medal >He was in the Territorial Force 28 Nov 1911 to 23 March 1912 before the war >British Expeditory Force 12.9 .12 to 18.2.14 > 4mths 11.1.13 to 20.3 15 > 4 months 6.6.16 to 14.10 17 > 8 months 25.5 18 to 25.1.19 > >Any help or suggestions would be welcome. >Cheers Marilyn from Western Australia > > > >------------------------------ > > > >End of WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 7 >************************************ > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >WW1-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Marilyn, Your post is a little confusing, however a few points in no particular order. You are correct; his details are: James Bernard Bishop, he served firstly with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers as 10983 Private Bishop. Later he transferred to the Machine Gun Corps and became 138513 Pte Bishop. Royal Welsh Fusiliers Museum. They are fobbing you off with a story that their curator has retired and that they are unable to help. It may well be that the last curator has retired and that they may or may not have employed someone else. It is a museum and they hold an extensive archive of photos, documents and a complete collection of the War Diaries. Now to be fair to the museum, they do say viewing by appointment and I do take the point that you are in Australia, but if you did wish to study a particular period of the RWF during the time James Bishop served with them, even if it is only to extract information from the War Diaries then you could employ or engage someone here to visit on your behalf; before any listers here think I might be touting for business I assure all I do not do this. Museum details: Queens Towers, Caernarfon Castle, Caernarfan, Gwynedd. LL55 2AY Phone: 01286 673362. Medals. You have mis-read his MIC slightly [an easy mistake I know]. He was awarded the 1914 Star with effect his deployment to France as a member of the RWF on the 13th August 1914. The 1914 Star was authorized in 1917. At some point in time [not 25th October 1917 as you mention] he was wounded and discharged and as a result became eligible and was awarded the Silver War Badge. The SWB was authorized in September 1916 and each badge was individually numbered on the back. The badge was worn by discharged servicemen in civilian clothes to show that they had served their country and had been discharged due to sickness or wounds. Later and at the end of hostilities he was awarded the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. Both these medals were authorized in 1919. You mention he was awarded a Clasp and 7 Roses to the 1914 Star. This is where you have mis-read the MIC. It states he [as everyone who qualified did] was awarded a Clasp and Rosette to the 1914 Star. The Clasp bearing the inscription: 5 August and 22 November 1914 was attached to the medal ribbon when wearing the medal. A small silver rosette was attached to the medal ribbon when not wearing medal but just the ribbon bar itself. The Clasp and Rosette was authorized in 1919. You say he was discharged as being Surplus to Military Requirements. Equipment and Material are disposed of as being Surplus to Requirements not Men. If you have his service papers somewhere it will state the authority for discharge; it will say something like: Para 392 [xvia] Kings Regulation 1912. Which relates to soldiers who having suffered an impairment since entering military service [a] during war service or [b] during demobilization being surplus for the time being to the requirements of men in certain medical categories and is found suffering from any impairment since entry into military service but whom the medical board consider as fit for a medical category will be discharged or transferred under Class xvia. Well he did suffer impairment during service; he was wounded, awarded the SWB and discharged. As a wounded man he would have been placed into a medical category, it was all those hundreds [or thousands] of other men in the same medical category that he was surplus to and therefore discharged. Military Medal. Not sure where you have information re his award of the MM, he may have I don't know. The National Archives have the MM Index Cards on the Documents Online where you can search by Name, Number Unit. Not sure if you have to pay for access or not. The MM Index is held under WO372/23. You could also try searching the London Gazette. There is a nominal index of MM awards again by name, number or unit but knowing the working of the London Gazette I would search by Name if you fancy a go and have a few days to spare. Neither the London Gazette or the NA will tell you what the award was for, there will be no citation it will only confirm or not if he was awarded the MM. Hope some of this helps. Regards Peter -----Original Message----- From: ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:ww1-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of ww1-uk-request@rootsweb.com Sent: 17 February 2013 08:01 To: ww1-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 7 Today's Topics: 1. JAMES BERNARD BISHOP 2 RWF WW1 (Watson Family) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 12:48:35 +0800 From: Watson Family <watsonb@iinet.com.au> Subject: [WW1-UK] JAMES BERNARD BISHOP 2 RWF WW1 To: WW1-UK@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20130217124043.01c68110@mail.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi , I have accessed all the records that are available at National Archives regarding JAMES BERNARD BISHOP and tried the Royal Welch Fusiliers to get more information regarding their campaigns during the WW1 but their museum Curator has retired and they are unable to help. I thought someone may have gone to the RWF previously and may be able to help me or advise me These are all the facts that I have James Bernard Bishop Date of First Attestation was 28 Nov 1911.This would have been when he enrolled and swore the oath of allegiance to the Queen. He enlisted in the army at Wrexham 28th March 1912. He was in the Royal Welsh Fuseliers 10983 then the Machine Gun Corps 138513. His discharge was 24 Feb 1919 Demob. He was awarded the 1914 Star, British War medal and The Victory Medal.He was discharged as being surplus to Military requirements, Having suffered impairments since entry to the service. After serving six years 333 days with colours and nil years 264 days in the Army Reserve. Date of discharge 14th November 1919. signed by MGC records Alexandra Palace. He has his date of birth 1892 (was 1893) Marks or scars Tatoo marks:Cross + Pierced heart back of left forearm.His height is 5' 7" Complexion fresh eyes brown and hair fair. His service during the war was 4 years and 7 months in the MGC 5.3.1914 to 24.2.1919. Pre War 2 years and 7 months 29 Mar 1912 to4 Mar 1914. He supposedly was awarded a Military Medal 3.7.1918 but no evidence of this can be found. The army has no record of him receiving this. He has the 1914 Star and was awarded a clasp of 7 roses to the Star issued 25 October 1917. This was when he was wounded in the arm and went to England to recover at Hawarden Castle Flintshire, the Hospital for the regiment.He went to France 13.August 1914. He also received the British War Medal and the Victory Medal He was in the Territorial Force 28 Nov 1911 to 23 March 1912 before the war British Expeditory Force 12.9 .12 to 18.2.14 4mths 11.1.13 to 20.3 15 4 months 6.6.16 to 14.10 17 8 months 25.5 18 to 25.1.19 Any help or suggestions would be welcome. Cheers Marilyn from Western Australia ------------------------------ End of WW1-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 7 ************************************

Hi , I have accessed all the records that are available at National Archives regarding JAMES BERNARD BISHOP and tried the Royal Welch Fusiliers to get more information regarding their campaigns during the WW1 but their museum Curator has retired and they are unable to help. I thought someone may have gone to the RWF previously and may be able to help me or advise me These are all the facts that I have James Bernard Bishop Date of First Attestation was 28 Nov 1911.This would have been when he enrolled and swore the oath of allegiance to the Queen. He enlisted in the army at Wrexham 28th March 1912. He was in the Royal Welsh Fuseliers 10983 then the Machine Gun Corps 138513. His discharge was 24 Feb 1919 Demob. He was awarded the 1914 Star, British War medal and The Victory Medal.He was discharged as being surplus to Military requirements, Having suffered impairments since entry to the service. After serving six years 333 days with colours and nil years 264 days in the Army Reserve. Date of discharge 14th November 1919. signed by MGC records Alexandra Palace. He has his date of birth 1892 (was 1893) Marks or scars Tatoo marks:Cross + Pierced heart back of left forearm.His height is 5' 7" Complexion fresh eyes brown and hair fair. His service during the war was 4 years and 7 months in the MGC 5.3.1914 to 24.2.1919. Pre War 2 years and 7 months 29 Mar 1912 to4 Mar 1914. He supposedly was awarded a Military Medal 3.7.1918 but no evidence of this can be found. The army has no record of him receiving this. He has the 1914 Star and was awarded a clasp of 7 roses to the Star issued 25 October 1917. This was when he was wounded in the arm and went to England to recover at Hawarden Castle Flintshire, the Hospital for the regiment.He went to France 13.August 1914. He also received the British War Medal and the Victory Medal He was in the Territorial Force 28 Nov 1911 to 23 March 1912 before the war British Expeditory Force 12.9 .12 to 18.2.14 4mths 11.1.13 to 20.3 15 4 months 6.6.16 to 14.10 17 8 months 25.5 18 to 25.1.19 Any help or suggestions would be welcome. Cheers Marilyn from Western Australia