WOW, Where do I begin. First, I hope the webmaster does not mind my reply to Don to everyone as I think I deserve equal time. This will be my only reply to the group and if anyone wants to have a civilized talk about this outside the room, I am always glad to talk and learn from others. I was under the impression there was a West Virginia Civil War rootsweb site for discussions like this, but now that the can has been opened, lets chat. The only reason I posted on this site is because there are 321 West Virginia soldiers on record as being held here of which 157 of these lie in marked graves. I am a part time historian at Andersonville and have been doing this for 9 years. My website is dedicated to ALL pows ( Union and Confederate ) as well as those guards on both sides that suffered and died in at the call of duty. You will find my website is not favored in defense of the prisoners here at Andersonville , and unlike any other stockade site on the internet I have seen, I! include a few pages dedicated to those thousands of guards who were here ( 4808 on record ) and the more than 200 guards who died here. If you will notice, my posting said I would do FREE research at Andersonville. This includes research not only of the 41000 Union on record, but the more than 4000 Confederates on record. Andersonville National Historic Site is unlike any other Civil War POW site in the North or South in that it is the National POW site dedicated to ALL American POWS from our revolution to the present day war in Iraq. None of the other sites who have museums can say they focus on the complete POW experience. Don, I also have ancestors not only in the 11th and 211th Pennsylvania, but also in the 10th Virginia CSA.( also held POW ) I believe its arrogant to declare one stockade was worse than another as I was not there. I can only post documented information , details, numbers, and statistics and let the readers decide for themselves. I'm not sure where to begin in replying to some of your misconceptions, but I will try to do it one at a time. "In the interest of representing both sides on this issue (not to fight the war again), there were two POW camps in the north that were as bad if not worse than Andersonville for the Confederate POW's. How were they worse? The numbers of deaths and prisoners are comparable, but in the north, food, shelter and clothing were withheld not because they were unavailable as in the south, but because they could be. " There were more than two stockades in the North that had deplorable conditions. We cannot forget Elmira New York, Camp Chase Ohio, Fort Delaware, Camp Douglas Illinois, Johnson's Island Ohio, Camp Morton Indiana, and Rock Island Illinois. The numbers were NOT comparable but percentages were close at Elmira. In the two you mentioned, here are the numbers compared to Andersonville. Elmira was on 30 acres. Open just 14 months, it held a total 12,123 with 2963 dead . That's 24% death rate. Prisoners had buildings / Barracks for protection from the elements. Camp Douglas was open more than 2 years and upwards of 30,000 over this time. 3759 are recorded as dead in graves and some sources such as the History channel say 8000 dead. That's about 22 percent dead if we go with that number. Prisoners had buildings / Barracks for the protection from the elements. Andersonville held an estimated 45000 over its 14 months of operation. 12920 dead and in marked graves. 29% ( 460 identified unknown ) No shelter was provided from the elements. Which place was worse? You decide. In August of 1864 there were more than 100 dead each day being brought to the cemetery. You can see the death numbers at http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Wirz/deathlog.htm The numbers held POW on both sides were not that different nor were the dead.The difference in numbers between the sites above are not worth argument, but chew on this. During the entire 4 years of war, some 30,000 Union prisoners died as POW. 12920 died here at Andersonville . That's a whopping 42% of all Union POWS deaths happened here at Anderson in just 14 months. I have read dozens of books, and hundreds of letters and diaries, and many mention men living near the latrines so that they could " Retrieve undigested kernels of corn for their own reuse.". I have never found such words in any other diaries of Union or Confederate POWS at any other sites. The argument on the not being able to feed the prisoners when the Confederate soldiers didn't have enough does not fly for several reasons. Starvation ( although a contributing factor ) was NOT the cause of death in any recorded death. Diarrhea was the number one killer because of the polluted water supply. In August 1864 , there were more than 33.000 prisoners within in the 27` 1/2 acre pen. At this time, if the stockade at Andersonville had been established a city,, it would have been the 5th largest city in the Confederacy. Another note is that its recorded that in Montezuma Georgia,, just 7 miles by railroad, there were THOUSANDS of bushels of corn being ground into cornmeal and being stockpiled until the price rose to where the local farmers would then sell to the Confederacy. This was still the breadbasket of the south. The Union Army never got to less than 50 miles from this place. The withholding of food as punishment was not uncommon in any POW site North or South. "To make matters worse, in the winter months the temperatures at the northern POW camps were much lower than they were in Alabama." I cant help but wonder how credible your facts are when according to what you wrote above, you think Andersonville is in Alabama. This shows how much you have researched this topic when its obvious you have not done even the basic research to see where the site is located. . "The following links can get you started on your research (or your enlightenment) of those Confederates who were confined at Elmira (aka Hellmira) prison." I suggest all Darris, and all readers to go to google.com and search for any of those stockades that Don and I have mentioned and read as many as you can. Some have a Union tilt,, Some have a Confederate Tilt,, but in all history books you have to read and decide for yourselves with as much research as you can find. "The other notorious POW camp was named after Stephen A. Douglas and was located very near Chicago - Camp Douglas. The following links can enlighten you on this subject. At Camp Douglas the number of deaths was so staggering they stopped keeping records. Many of the dead were simply thrown into Lake Michigan rather than buried - only to wash up on the shore at a later time." They did not stop keeping records. There are so many conspiracies on others in the North as well as the South because so many records were lost or destroyed. ( again,, North and South ) I think the above information, numbers, and suggestion to do a bit more research might enlighten you that as I mentioned at the beginning of this.... they were all hell on earth. ""The only monument at Camp Douglas reads "TO THE MEMORY OF THE SIX THOUSAND SOUTHERN SOLDIERS HERE BURIED ... WHO DIED IN CAMP DOUGLAS PRISON ... 1862-65" "" As I mentioned above,, The History channel put the death toll at 8000. Your quote of 6000 makes the death rate at Douglas less than 20% " Again, this isn't to start a debate, but to promote education. I'm sure you've heard the story about the three blind men who were told to describe an elephant when each was placed at a different point around the elephant and was able to touch that part of the elephant - there were, of course, three completely different descriptions." Its obvious that you wanted to begin a debate as you would not have started this in a Basic genealogical posting site in which I only mentioned FREE research. I mentioned nothing of conditions here or any other site. ""With history, it is important to see all sides of the issue before you decide who was right and who was wrong. As with all things, the American Civil War was not literally a black and white issue - there were many shades of gray. Neither side was 100% wrong and neither side was 100% right and the fact that this is still being debated today is proof of that. It is also proof that the winners write the history books because during my education in public schools and on through receiving my B.S. (not in history) I had not ever heard of either of these two POW camps."" FINALLY,,, Something we can agree on 100%. I too never heard of what I call as " The other side of War" except during the early 70`s when the Vietnam POWS came home. This is where my interest in the POW experience began. Conditions were Gray on many cases and in all stockades, the conditions all depended on what time period, as well as location inside the stockade a prisoner was held. Some in Camp Douglas at the beginnings easily escaped and went to town,, and enjoyed the pleasures of any city... then there were those times where it was indeed hell. Here at Andersonville in the first couple months, before the summer heat and over population set in,, was welcomed by many who were transferred from Belle Island in Richmond, but as the population increased, clean water disappeared, and disease prevailed, death was often a welcome visitor. " As I mentioned at the beginning, I am always open to civilized discussion on this topic , but I will NOT post again here. I will be very happy to exchange views and ideas one on one. I believe we have stirred up enough dust for now. I have several request for ancestor records to tend to. Kevin Frye Andersonville Historian / NPS Volunteer www.angelfire.com/ga2/Andersonvilleprison/index.html