I was unaware that some men were assigned to ASTP. I was also unaware that Language was taught. Did you wear the ASTP shoulder patch? Did you have civilian or military instructors or both? Ellis Hosbach Bethel Park, PA

Just a few words concerning my experience with the ASTP system during WW2,which hopefully will not offend anyone,but rather will help people understand the very broad scope of the program. My path to the program began with my enlisting in the Army in November of 1942. I was assigned as a draftsman (I had two years of Engineering college as well as two years gainful employment as a draftsman) at the Brooklyn Army Base. In February,1943 I was transferred to the ASTP unit at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. I did not apply for this posting-I was ordered to report there,so I went! They put me in a Civil Engineering course. There was also a very large contingent studying foreign languages-such as Arabic,Rumanian,and the one I mentioned in an earlier post--Greek with a Bulgarian accent! Truly a great time to be alive and young! This all came to an end in early February,1944 when ASTP was basically terminated. Yes,quite a number of men were reassigned to jnfantry training, but some 54 of us wound up in the Manhattan Project and were sent to Los Alamos,New Mexico for the duration. We were all ranks-I even saw one guy with First Sergeant's stripes.Since I had come to know most of these guys during our stay at the UofP and since I wondered how the Army had picked us for this particular assignment, I made it a point to "chat them up" and found that there indeed was a common thread! This is not to say that none of the guys sent to the infantry would have otherwise qualified,but every one of us sent to the Manhattan Project had been gainfully employed before the war-draftsman,truck driver,electrician,carpenter,etc. In case you didn't know,or forgot--we helped produce the atom bomb that ended the war.

I am a WWII veteran and still working at age 84 1/2 and I work at an Art and Framing store--SO--please use acid free materials any original papers. unique-antique is really uni-Q anti-Q -----Original Message----- From: David Dixon Sent: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:44:28 -0700 To: WORLDWAR2-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Original Service Records Hello to all, I have just replied to a query posted to the AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com mail group, posted by someone holding their great uncles RAAF service log book. The question was whether it was worth copying. I repeat part of my reply : "The answer to your great uncle's log book is YES. Scan it page by page & store extra copies on several CD's. Once lost, the original can never be replaced. I would suggest that anyone holding original service records should do the same. I have just scanned my old pay book, AB83, & Demob. book & passed on CDs carrying the images to my family. The AWM can provide service dossiers through their excellent service, but they do not hold the same information as the pay book etc." I do not know what records are retained by servicemen on demobilisation in countries other than mine - but I am sure they must be of a similar nature - and just as valuable. Regards, Dave ______________________________

Hi ALL, This comes from the [japanese-pow@west-point.org] list. Please reply to Annette Morgan / Roy 'Gabby' Hays [fukuoka_gabby@yahoo.com] Thank you, Sue + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + - + Sunday, May 07, 2006 Subject: japanese-pow: Need information re: stalags Hi All, I have a friend whose uncle was a tailgunner on a B14 and got shot down over Italy and was in stalag 13. He wants to know more about the uncle's service and experiences and I offered to ask you all to see if the German POW's have resources like the Japanese POW listserve, websites of their camps with photos, first hand accounts. Do you know if they have a listserve like this one? He would especially like to be able to talk to (or email) anyone who knew his uncle during that time. If you can give me any info, you can email me on japanese-pow@west-point.org list (if you join the list) or at fukuoka_gabby@yahoo.com Thank you, Annette Morgan

David, I was in e-mail contact recently with a young man researching his grandfather's WW II Record. He told me that he found his Honorable Discharge in a framed picture/painting between the back of the picture and the paper backing on the frame. That reminded me that my mother also hid important papers in a like manner. This is a tip for other researchers. Ellis Hosbach Bethel Park, PA

My Father served in the Army Aircorp in WWII he was born 9-11-1922, so about the same age as you. He passed away in 1992. What branch of the military did you serve in and where did you serve??? Barbara Phillips > [Original Message] > From: Audrey Smith <unique-antique@webtv.net> > To: <WORLDWAR2-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: 5/7/2006 6:05:49 PM > Subject: [WORLD WAR II] Re: Original Service Records > > I am a WWII veteran and still working at age 84 1/2 and I work at an Art and Framing store--SO--please use acid free materials any original papers. > > unique-antique is really uni-Q anti-Q > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dixon > Sent: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:44:28 -0700 > To: WORLDWAR2-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Original Service Records > > Hello to all, > I have just replied to a query posted to the AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com > mail group, posted by someone holding their great uncles > RAAF service log book. The question was whether it was worth copying. > I repeat part of my reply : > > "The answer to your great uncle's log book is YES. Scan it page by page > & store extra copies on several CD's. Once lost, the original can never > be replaced. I would suggest that anyone holding original service > records should do the same. I have just scanned my old pay book, AB83, & > Demob. book & passed on CDs carrying the images to my family. The AWM > can provide service dossiers through their excellent service, but they > do not hold the same information as the pay book etc." > > I do not know what records are retained by servicemen on demobilisation > in countries other than mine - but I am sure they must be of a similar > nature - and just as valuable. > > Regards, > Dave > > ______________________________ > > > > ==== WORLDWAR2 Mailing List ==== > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Military:_20th_Century/WORLDWAR2.html > This is the link to our archives. You may search or browse. Also, subscribe or unsubscribe and contact admin. We are an international list. Please remember to tell us what country your ancestor was from and what country you are in now if different. This helps us help you. If you give dates please help us understand the date you are referring to. For example: 4 Nov 1944 or Nov 4, 1944. > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx

Hello to all, I have just replied to a query posted to the AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com mail group, posted by someone holding their great uncles RAAF service log book. The question was whether it was worth copying. I repeat part of my reply : "The answer to your great uncle's log book is YES. Scan it page by page & store extra copies on several CD's. Once lost, the original can never be replaced. I would suggest that anyone holding original service records should do the same. I have just scanned my old pay book, AB83, & Demob. book & passed on CDs carrying the images to my family. The AWM can provide service dossiers through their excellent service, but they do not hold the same information as the pay book etc." I do not know what records are retained by servicemen on demobilisation in countries other than mine - but I am sure they must be of a similar nature - and just as valuable. Regards, Dave

Hello to all, I have just replied to a query posted to the AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com mail group, posted by someone holding their great uncles RAAF service log book. The question was whether it was worth copying. I repeat part of my reply : "The answer to your great uncle's log book is YES. Scan it page by page & store extra copies on several CD's. Once lost, the original can never be replaced. I would suggest that anyone holding original service records should do the same. I have just scanned my old pay book, AB83, & Demob. book & passed on CDs carrying the images to my family. The AWM can provide service dossiers through their excellent service, but they do not hold the same information as the pay book etc." Regards, Dave

This is very good advise. Because even the military in some cases no longer has records. My Uncles ship went down during the war and due to a fire, the military has no records. All my Uncles records were with his sister. They went up in a ball of flame when their propane tank exploded. Very little left about my uncle. Make copies and keep them in different places. Barbara Phillips > [Original Message] > From: David Dixon <dixond2@bigpond.net.au> > To: <WORLDWAR2-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: 5/6/2006 11:31:48 PM > Subject: [WORLD WAR II] Original Service Records > > Hello to all, > I have just replied to a query posted to the AUS-MILITARY-L@rootsweb.com > mail group, posted by someone holding their great uncles > RAAF service log book. The question was whether it was worth copying. > I repeat part of my reply : > > "The answer to your great uncle's log book is YES. Scan it page by page > & store extra copies on several CD's. Once lost, the original can never > be replaced. I would suggest that anyone holding original service > records should do the same. I have just scanned my old pay book, AB83, & > Demob. book & passed on CDs carrying the images to my family. The AWM > can provide service dossiers through their excellent service, but they > do not hold the same information as the pay book etc." > > Regards, > Dave > > > > ==== WORLDWAR2 Mailing List ==== > We welcome tributes of your World War II ancestors. We are an international list. Please remember to tell us what country your ancestor was from and what country you are in now if different. This helps us help you. If you give dates please help us understand the date you are referring to. For example: 4 Nov 1944 or Nov 4, 1944. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Ellis: Thank you for the phone numbers and address. I'll call them. It's always preferable, at least to me, to speak with a live person. Thank you for the Lone Sentry site. You're quite right it's good with lots of information. If I have any good news from Carnegie I'll post it. Hope your day is as pretty as mine. Adrienne in Illinois

Adrienne, if you do a Google Search you will find a number of sites covering the 95th. I looked at several and found the third one, Lone Sentry, to be very good. Unfortunately, my posting its URL will not get you to the site. Do the Google and then click the third one on the list. If you contact Carnegie Mellon, get the Registrars Office, (412) 268-8186. If they cannot help, perhaps they can transfer you to College of Engineering. That number, if you want to call direct, is (412) 268-2481. Mailing address: 5000 Forbes Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15213. The main telephone is (412) 268-2000 Ellis Hosbach Bethel Park, PA (suburban Pittsburgh)

Hi all, I thought this might help someone or might be good for the archives for looking later. In the Milwaukee Journal dated May 6, 2006 is an article on the The "Submarine ship called USS Lagarto" which sank in World War II. Family did not receive a lot of information on how they died or what happen. Families said the government was very secretive about the submarines at that time patrolling the Pacific ocean. The submarine ship was found after 60 years. It was found in the South China sea under about 200 feet of water. The submarine was also made in Wisconsin. There is also a photo of the ship. The Newspaper can be found on line. _www.JSonline.com_ (http://www.JSonline.com) Dee

Ellis Thank you for the very clear description of the ASTP program. I guess Pete must have applied. All he said was that he had three months of basic training, was sent to college after taking a number of tests, and after then to an infantry division for about six months of training. I guess I assumed from what he said that after the testing whoever went over the tests pulled out people with high scores. When Pete was drafted he was a freshman in college. I believe I will still contact Carnegie Institute since some of his credits were transferred from that institution. The worst that can happen is they don't have them or won't share them. I've looked through a number of sites but have yet to find a current reunion for the 95th Infantry Division or even the 320th Engineer Combat Battalion. Doesn't mean there hasn't been one I just haven't been able to find it as yet. Thanks so much for answering my questions. I appreciate your help and patience :) Have a great weekend. Adrienne

While as an Australian it is not my place to comment on the US army, as en ex infantryman, I can't help but to agree with Ellis. In any army you went where you were sent. You were sent where you were needed. As far as the casualty rate is concerned - where on earth does the 99% come from. I doubt if even the Russians sustained that figure (& they really copped it). Regards, Dave Delilah wrote: > ASTP (The Army Specialized Training Program) was for the relatively high > IQ's of the U.S. Army, all of whom were college age (18 to 24). All or > almost all of the ASTP students were sent into the infantry when the war got > rough in 1944. They sent the highest IQ's into the Infantry where combat > would kill or wound at least 99 percent of them (yes, 99 percent!). > > > >

Adrienne, I just posted a detailed explanation of the ASTP Program. In answer to your specific question, the four digit number was for Unit Identification purpose only and had nothing to do with any subject matter. An individual wishing to participate in the Program made application, through his immediate Commander. If accepted, he was then sent to a unit called STAR Unit (also had 4 digits for identification purposes) for further evaluation and attachment to an ASTP Unit for education. Pete may have been sent to a college, but I suspect that he may not have been part of an ASTP Unit, unless he had gotten in at the tail end of the Program and it folded 3 months or so later. At that point he would have gone to an Infantry Unit. To my knowledge, no one was sent to ASTP with having applied. Ellis Hosbach Bethel Park, PA

I have previously tried, to the best of my ability, to explain The Army Specialized Training Program of WWII. As one who participated in the Program, I feel better qualified than one who has read about it in a book or viewed a Web Page prepared by someone who most likely also read about it in a book. Most successful applicants had been enrolled in college prior to entering the Service. I do not recall if this was a prerequisite. It may have been. I was in my second semester at University of Pittsburgh when drafted. It was a program designed to educated personnel in the fields of Medicine, Engineering and Psychology. It was not an Officers Training Program. That training was done at various Officer Candidate Schools (OCS) located on Army Bases such as Fort Benning, GA and Fort Sill, OK. It did not teach people how to defuse land mines, set charges or build bridges. All participants were Privates and attended classes at a University, sometimes with civilian students, and were taught mostly by civilian instructors. It was hardly looked upon as a "dangerous assignment". Rather, it was looked upon as a very cushy assignment. He who says otherwise does not have actual experience. I left XV Corps Headquarters, Desert Training Center, Indio, CA and was attached to STAR Unit 3906, Pasadena Junior College, Pasadena, CA from 1 September 1943 until 7 October 1943. I was then attached to (ASTU) Army Specialized Training Unit 3925, University of San Francisco, effective 8 October 1943. Eight barracks had been built on the Golden Gate Avenue side of the Campus as quarters for the men of the Unit. Military formations were conducted on the Company Street in front of the Barracks. I remained there until 5 January 1944 when I voluntarily resigned from the Program rather than repeat classes in Physics and Chemistry which I had failed. I was given this option because my grades in other subjects were high enough to raise my average to an acceptable level. (As an aside, we were permitted to do civilian work on weekends to earn a few extra dollars. Some lucky ones were hired as Longshoremen and earned a lot of money. I, along with a friend, worked as a stock boy at City of Paris Department Store in downtown San Francisco. Hardly a "dangerous assignment".) After a 15 day delay en route to visit my parents in Linhart, PA., I reported to Headquarters 96th Infantry Division, Camp White, OR on 20 January 1944. I served with the Division in various capacities during the Leyte and Okinawan Campaigns and returned with it to Camp Anza, CA where it was deactivated on 3 February 1946. As for Delilah, who appears to have more "guts" than necessary, I wrote to the list because I did not want anyone to be mislead by her remarks. I quote from "The Camp White Grenade" issue of Thursday, April 13, 1944. Headline: "ASTP Students Swell Ranks of 96th; Most Come From Midwestern Schools". " The new 96th men traded in their books for bayonets as part of the ASTP curtailment whereby 110,000 men fit for combat duty, where transferred to Army ground or service units slated for overseas action. All the new doughboys have had some basic training, and a number of them have years of service behind them. Some held ratings before exchanging rifles for textbooks. Virtually all the branches of service are represented. Average age is about 20." I do not have any casualty figures to reflect how many of the killed and injured were ASTP Men. I doubt that a figure, any where near actual, exists. However, I am sure that someone with a "cause" to advance has assigned a number. The 96th had 1598 killed or missing and 5614 wounded or injured. Since they were all good men, none of us gave a damn whether or not they had been in the ASTP Program. The 96th Infantry Division Association has held an annual reunion every year since 1958. The 2006 will be held in Denver, CO July 25-30 and I'm sure there will be a number of former ASTP Men in attendance. Ellis Hosbach Bethel Park, PA

#1, the below was not written by me, it was taken from a site that dealt with training of an ASTP unit -the only reason I posted it was to show it was a dangerous assignment and that they only accepted those highly qualified - #2 How dare "Ellis Hosbach" question my belief in the US troops and my belief in America? If this is going to be a 'thread' on this list, then you don't need a list. I answered him off-list which is something he did not have the "guts" to take up with me personally, he needed an audience. When the first post was made, the person explained that "He mentioned that he had was sent to "college" for training in order to learn how to defuse land mines, set charges, build bridges, etc." This is a dangerous assignment and the post below backs up that fact. There were more colleges/universities that were also chosen for the military to send people to for this training, not just Carnegie. Now if you got something to say to me, write me at my personal e-mail, and if there is any accusations about non-American thoughts, and being ciritical concerning the United States military, be careful who you say it to. delilah evans, Capt (ret) Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death." -Gen. Omar Bradley ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dixon" <dixond2@bigpond.net.au> To: <WORLDWAR2-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 2:23 AM Subject: Re: [WORLD WAR II] U.S. Army - Training for Engineers -Carnegie Institute of ... | While as an Australian it is not my place to comment on the US army, as | en ex infantryman, I can't help but to agree with Ellis. In any army you | went where you were sent. You were sent where you were needed. As far as | the casualty rate is concerned - where on earth does the 99% come from. | I doubt if even the Russians sustained that figure (& they really copped | it). | Regards, | Dave | | Delilah wrote: | > ASTP (The Army Specialized Training Program) was for the relatively high | > IQ's of the U.S. Army, all of whom were college age (18 to 24). All or | > almost all of the ASTP students were sent into the infantry when the war got | > rough in 1944. They sent the highest IQ's into the Infantry where combat | > would kill or wound at least 99 percent of them (yes, 99 percent!). | > | > | > | > | | | ==== WORLDWAR2 Mailing List ==== | We welcome tributes of your World War II ancestors. We are an international list. Please remember to tell us what country your ancestor was from and what country you are in now if different. This helps us help you. If you give dates please help us understand the date you are referring to. For example: 4 Nov 1944 or Nov 4, 1944. | | ============================== | Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the | areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. | Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx |

Ellis: You mentioned a four digit number that identified each unit. Did that number refer to the type of training you received as part of ASTP? Do I have this right....once someone went through the usual basic training after being drafted or enlisted and the regular testing, if his scores were high enough, he was then sent to a STAR unit for further testing and if he qualified was then sent to a college that participated in ASTP? Pete told me that he had three months of basic training, then was sent to college, and then assigned to an infantry division for another six months of training. Does that sound about right? I apologize for so many questions. Thank you for your patience. Adrienne

Hello Ellis: Yes, it did seem that way. I honestly don't know what my friend was told when he was chosen for this program. He was drafted right out of college. He was probably 18-19 years old. He never mentioned that he was being trained to become an officer, just that due to the fact that he scored high on tests and was an engineering student he was given special training. However, from what I've read thus far it does seem that many of these young men expected to be officers. And when the program came to an abrupt end, they ended up as privates. I had no idea that their survival rate was so low. Pete was extremely fortunate. Adrienne

Delilah, don't you dare try to create the impression that the Army did a bad thing by sending ASTP Students to Infantry Units when the Program was discontinued. Most of us came from Infantry Units. What was the Army supposed to do? There was a need and this was the logical solution. Ellis Hosbach Bethel Park, PA