Pat & Bettye, I can't thank you enough for all your help. To date, I have not actually seen the 1881 census documents but hope to do so in the new year. I have a printed copy of the 1891 page and I do have a downloaded version of the 1901 page and upon closer look at that image I must admit that Pat you just might be correct. The first letter of the word does look more like the "S" in son than the "L" in Labourer. This would make much more sense as you say. As to the question of Martha, I'm still trying to find out who she was. The Census info you sent below for 1881, does seem to be a good match, however, the birthplaces for the parents don't seem to match the 1891 Census although they are close. One other puzzling fact is that on Martha Davies marriage certificate to Walter John Hoad in 1887, John Davies is listed as Gameskeeper, which does not seem to fit either of these two families. I believe that the younger John Davies in the 1901 Census and Martha Davies the one in the 1881 Census are brother and sister, thus giving credence to the niece, Phyllis in the 1901 Census. I would just like to find them all together in one place!!! I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who is confused by all these John and Elizabeth's....and to make matters worse, my full name is Elizabeth and I have a brother John!!! Happy New Year to all and thanks again for all your help throughout the year. Libby Clarke Bracebridge, ON Canada -----Original Message----- From: Pat Powell [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: December 31, 2003 5:12 AM To: BJ & LC Kirkwood Cc: [email protected]; Libby Subject: Re: [WLS-PEM] RE: William Henry Davies Hello Bettye and Libby - and any others following this thread. To answer some of your points. 1. Yes we have gone down this road before. Some time ago following a query from Libby for a Martha Davies I found in 1881 the following who I think is a better match for the parents of John Davies. Maybe Libby you can tell us if this is part of the same family - and if you have confirmed that this is your Martha? Dwelling: East End Census Place: Pembroke St Michael, Pembroke, Wales Source: FHL Film 1342303 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 5410 Folio 67 Page 13 Marr Age Sex Birthplace John DAVIES M 58 M Penelly, Pembroke, Wales Rel: Head Occ: General Labourer Elizabeth DAVIES M 48 F St Marys, Pembroke, Wales Rel: Wife Occ: Wife Martha DAVIES U 22 F St Marys, Pembroke, Wales Rel: Daur Occ: Cook (Dom) 2. Secondly with regard to the "lawyer" question. First I don't think William Henry Davies of Spring gardens comes into this family (My Mum lived in Spring Gardens when she was 3years old!!! - not that that has any relevance!) I have followedup that W H Davies for someone else a long time ago - so I woulds have to look back at my notes. However maybe Libby could answer this one- I see in the on-line 1901 index that William Henry Davies is shown as a "Sawyer" not a "Lawyer". Certainly these often look similar in the writing of the time - so have you just taken the "lawer" from the print of the census page, Libby - or has it been substantiated by other docs? Certainly Sawyer would fit in more with the family where brother Samuel George is shown as a carpenter. 3. I have also been looking back in the 1851 census and found a possible for John Davies the grandfather of William Henry Davies but I'm not sure yet so I will come back to you both later. The coincidence of the wives seems to be a bit too much!! Williams parents were John and Elizabeth. John's parents were John and Elizabeth and now the second John (aged 27 in 1851) has parents John and Elizabeth!!! He also has a sister Martha. Anyway - between us all we may get to the bottom of this. Happy new year to you all - chat to you again soon. Pat In message <[email protected]>, BJ & LC Kirkwood <[email protected]> writes >Dear Pat, > >Following your correspondence with Libby, I've had a look at a few things, >and I offer the following for your thoughts. > >Because the 48 years old John Davies was a Tanner, it seems likely that his >father was the John Davies, Tanner, aged 60 in the 1881 census living at >Thomas St. O Gardens, Pembroke St. Mary with his widowed daughter Ann >Greirson aged 31 and her sons John H. Greirson 7 and David H. aged 2. > >This gives John Davies (senior) a birth date of 1821, so I looked in the >marriage index and there are a couple of Joseph Davies likely candidates for >his father, but there is also a John Davies, servant, who married Martha >Morris on 12th. December, 1820 at St. Mary's Haverfordwest. (I've found the >term "servant" awfully misleading, sometimes these folks had means and >weren't my interpretation of servant at all). > >The John Davies with wife Elizabeth and 3 year old William Henry lived at 9 >Mansel St. O Gardens, Pembroke St. Mary. > >Libby has told us that William Henry became a lawyer (I think the "worker" >is just a red herring and the folks who were employed at that time are >designated as such on this entry, whilst the wives and children are not). > >This led me to 'A History of Haverfordwest' edited by Mr. Dillwyn >Miles......and from there back to the 1881 census >where 59 years old William Davies, Solicitor and MP for the County of >Pembroke is shown residing with his family at Spring Gardens, Haverfordwest >St. Martin. > >There may be no connection whatsoever, as the Davies name is so >common......but I wondered if perhaps there is some remote family tie >between the MP/Solicitor and the young lawyer. > >Davies, a solicitor, had contested the county as a Liberal in a by-election >in 1876 .....his former partner was a William Rees. He would be 79 if still >alive in 1901...so the names and occupations are probably just coincidental, >but I wondered why the son and grandson of a Tanner aspired to a legal >career...maybe he was just clever. > >Warm regards. > >Bettye Kirkwood, Australia. > >PS. This all seems familiar, have we gone down this road previously? >----- Original Message ----- -- Pat Powell --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/2003