Hi Bettye I believe that the word 'Nwncl' was sometimes used by village people when they respectfully referred to one of the older men, or senior citizens in today's parlance. It is used at least twice in this way, once re my own gg grandfather, in the book 'Old Characters of Gellinudd' (near Pontardawe in Gla), book written in 1911. Can be quite confusing ! The correct Welsh word for uncle is 'ewythr' Gareth List administrator for DYFED, CGN & PEM Genuki Wales http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/ Lookup Exchange http://home.clara.net/tirbach/lookup.html Help Page http://home.clara.net/tirbach/hicks.html . ----- Original Message ----- From: "BJ & LC Kirkwood" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 10:15 PM Subject: [Dyfed] Explanations > Dear List, > > Whilst we are on definitions and explanations, can somebody please tell me what exactly is meant by a "Welsh uncle". > > Bettye Kirkwood, Australia. > > > ==== DYFED Mailing List ==== > Rootsweb THREADED Archive Search for Dyfed-L > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/DYFED-L/ > >

Bettye Kirkwood <[email protected]> wrote: Whilst we are on definitions and explanations, can somebody please tell me what exactly is meant by a "Welsh uncle". ================ Dear Betty, The OED defines Welsh uncle as "a parent's male first cousin". Source: "The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary" edited by Lesley Brown, published 1993 by Clarendon Press, Oxford. ISBN 0-19-861134-X Kind regards, John ---------------------------- John Ball, Ystalyfera, South Wales, UK E-mail: [email protected] Homepage: http://home.clara.net/wfha/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.557 / Virus Database: 349 - Release Date: 30/12/2003

Dear Kerry, That's interesting. I've seen the name used as a female first name in early Pembrokeshire records. Bettye Kirkwood. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerry Frater" <[email protected]> To: "BJ & LC Kirkwood" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 8:53 PM Subject: RE: [WLS-PEM] Steynton Marriage - 20 April 1812 > I just want to say that the name Abra is possible. I have a few Abra's in my > family database but they were from Norfolk and emigrated to NSW somewhere in > the 1840's. > > Kerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: BJ & LC Kirkwood [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 03 January 2004 23:17 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [WLS-PEM] Steynton Marriage - 20 April 1812 > > > Dear Craig, > > In the index to marriages, this particular union is shown in 1812 as between > John Abra? and Eliner Allen... the vicar appears to have had trouble with > the names, or perhaps the signatures were written in this manner. You could > purchase a copy of the actual parish register entry from Haverfordwest > (Pembrokeshire Records Office) to find out for sure. > > I did note that there was a further Steynton entry for the name of Abram, > but it looks like you have first hand knowledge that the surname was Aubrey > or Obray. > A great many of us would have Allens in Pembrokeshire weaving in and out of > our pedigrees, so do you have more information on Eleanor? > > Bettye Kirkwood, Australia. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 12:01 AM > Subject: [WLS-PEM] Steynton Marriage - 20 April 1812 > > > > Was wondering if some lister might have access to the marriage records of > > Steynton Parish. Am trying to verify the marriage of John B. Aubrey > (Obray) and > > Eleanor Allen which reportedly took place in Steynton on 20 April 1812. > > > > Craig in Houston, Texas > > > > > > ==== WLS-PEMBROKESHIRE Mailing List ==== > > Dyfed FHS > > http://www.dyfedfhs.org.uk/ > > > > > > ==== WLS-PEMBROKESHIRE Mailing List ==== > Pembrokeshire Archives > email [email protected] > >

Slightly off-topic whether Lettice is an alternative for Elizabeth, I just thought I'd warn those people who haven't yet discovered "alternative names" what they might need to look out for. One Monmouthshire LEWIS ancestor of mine has - to date - been found with 6 different first names. Originally I assumed she'd died and her widower remarried, but soon realised that unless he was an extremely busy Bluebeard or bigamist, this was unlikely. I'm as certain as anyone can be that they're all the same person (partly as an 1861 name reappears after 3 or 4 other names in 1901! Also the ages all tie in well). The following names have (so far) appeared in a variety of census returns (all originals checked except for the usual 1881 transcription), marriage certificate and birth certificate (of her second child) (some more than once): Ann Amelia Amy Emma Emily Mary It's now got the stage that I look forward to a new discovery and to see which name she's now sporting! She was illiterate but even allowing for that and incompetent enumerators etc, it's still quite interesting that such a number of different names are used. Of course, someone else out there may have an ancestor who has far more alternatives.... Or a logical explanation for the change of name (she could have just been reinventing herself on a regular basis and just fancied a change of name to suit her mood?).... any ideas? Cate Date sent: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:28:13 +1100 From: "BJ & LC Kirkwood" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [WLS-PEM] RE: William Henry Davies > Dear Pat and Libby, > > At least my popping in my two-pennyworth has brought forth the lawyer/sawyer > discussion and may lead to > clarification. Thanks, Pat. > > As to the name Elizabeth, at least you are Libby and I am Bettye with an "e" > which my mother assured me was to identify the fact that I was NOT an > Elizabeth. My mother's second name was Letitia and someone once told me > that the Welsh version, Lettice, could also be an alternative for Elizabeth. > As the List is quiet, has anyone any thoughts on this? It would be rather > ironic if my mother, unknowingly, carried a version of Elizabeth herself. > > Bettye Kirkwood >

Hello Cate, Just catching up on my emails and noticed your mention of the COLE name. I have an Elizabeth Cole born 1787 Reynoldston who married William Phillips in Ludchurch in 1811. They then moved to Begelly/Wooden area. . Best to all listers for 2004. Sue Martin

Hello Craig CJ stands for Carmarthen Journal. Cheers Pat In message <[email protected]>, [email protected] writes >Many thanks for your clues from the Marriage Index. I'll contact >Haverfordwest because I think they might have married after first obtaining a >license. > >The surname is definitely Aubrey or Obray, sometimes even Awbrey. John >Barnett Aubrey served an apprenticeship as a Shipwright Boy in Milford. In >1812, >he became a full Shipwright and married that same year. > >Eleanor Allen, born 1789, was the daughter of John Allen, a shipwright who >lived at London Road in Pembroke Dock. > >Interestingly enough, John Barnett Aubrey, died on 12 December 1845. The day >before, he had fallen off one of the stages round a vessel in to one of the >building slips. There is this notation from a history of Pembroke: "On 19 >December 1845, the CJ reported his death." Do you have any idea what CJ might >stand for? Could it be a newspaper or an abbreviation related to a coroner's >report of some kind? > >Craig in Texas > >______________________________ -- Pat Powell

Dear Craig, In the index to marriages, this particular union is shown in 1812 as between John Abra? and Eliner Allen... the vicar appears to have had trouble with the names, or perhaps the signatures were written in this manner. You could purchase a copy of the actual parish register entry from Haverfordwest (Pembrokeshire Records Office) to find out for sure. I did note that there was a further Steynton entry for the name of Abram, but it looks like you have first hand knowledge that the surname was Aubrey or Obray. A great many of us would have Allens in Pembrokeshire weaving in and out of our pedigrees, so do you have more information on Eleanor? Bettye Kirkwood, Australia. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 12:01 AM Subject: [WLS-PEM] Steynton Marriage - 20 April 1812 > Was wondering if some lister might have access to the marriage records of > Steynton Parish. Am trying to verify the marriage of John B. Aubrey (Obray) and > Eleanor Allen which reportedly took place in Steynton on 20 April 1812. > > Craig in Houston, Texas > > > ==== WLS-PEMBROKESHIRE Mailing List ==== > Dyfed FHS > http://www.dyfedfhs.org.uk/ >

Joy <[email protected]> wrote: CJ is The Carmarthen Journal. Swansea Reference Library hold copies of this as well as a partial index for it. There may be a fuller report in it and I suggest that you contact them as they are most helpful. [email protected] ================ Dear Joy, Are you certain that Swansea Library holds a partial index to the Carmarthen Journal? I wonder if you are confusing the Carmarthen Journal with "The Cambrian" newspaper, first published in 1804. Swansea Library certainly has a fine collection of The Cambrian, and has an on-going project to index its contents. I quote from the Swansea Library website at http://www.swansea.gov.uk/culture/libraries/libraryintro.htm "The Cambrian is in the process of being computer indexed. To date indexing has covered 1804-1870. There is a small charge for accessing this service." I have used the Cambrian Index myself, but it would be tremendous news if the library also has an indexed collection of the Carmarthen Journal. Kind regards, John ---------------------------- John Ball, Ystalyfera, Swansea, South Wales, UK E-mail: [email protected] Homepage: http://home.clara.net/wfha/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.557 / Virus Database: 349 - Release Date: 30/12/2003

Dear Fellow Listers I have just had it pointed out to me that I have confused two newspapers both held by Swansea Reference Library The Carmarthen Journal and The Cambrian. It is the latter which has been partially indexed. My apologies for misleading everyone and raising hopes that they might have started indexing The Carmarthen Journal but this is not the case. However they do hold copies for 1844-1875 and 1885-1894 but there are significant gaps in their holdings. The following also hold issues as follows National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth 1817-1920+ Carmarthen Library 1810-1920+ I have been in touch direct with Craig who made the enquiry. As he knows the date of the accident he will not be troubled by the lack of an index My only excuse is that I was working on my PC at 5am this morning due to a sleep imbalance and did not check my thoughts with my reference books on newspaper holdings. Apologies to everyone once again Joy

Hi Craig >On 19 December 1845, the CJ reported his death." Do you have any idea what CJ might stand for?< Do you have the details from Pembroke People by Richard Rose? CJ is The Carmarthen Journal. Swansea Reference Library hold copies of this as well as a partial index for it. There may be a fuller report in it and I suggest that you contact them as they are most helpful. [email protected] You are unlikely to find a coroner's report as it was permitted for these to be thrown away after a set period of time. There is Coroners' Book held by the Pembrokeshire Record Office which just lists inquests held, and where, cause and place of death but little else. This is an example from my own family Pembrokeshire CRO Ref. T/CR/1 Coroner's Book 7 January 1896 Henry White, Malster & Brewer, Pembroke Dock, 67 years, Inquest held at Hean Castle Hotel, Saundersfoot on 10 January 1896, Cost £1. 15s., Committed suicide during a fit of temporary insanity. Inquest held by H.E.J. Price, Deputy Coroner From my experience I found that the newspaper reports contained more information but for the time of John Allen's death few papers were published in Wales. Do have a look at the British Library Newspaper Library catalogue. http://www.bl.uk/collections/newspaper/newscat.html However early Welsh newspapers contained mostly national and international news extracted from London newspapers. If an enquiry was held by the Admiralty there could be a report in Admiralty papers at the National Archives - Kew. However life was cheap in those days and a local inquest was probably considered 'adequate'. Incidentally Mrs. Peters in her book 'The History of Pembroke Dock' published 1905 mentions on Page 159 Mr. J. Obray, of Gwyther Street (eighty-eight) as being one of the oldest men who was a native of the town. His name also appears in the Acknowledgments to those who have provided valuable suggestions and help to the author. In the 1861 Census there is a John Obray aged 10 living with his grandparents, Joshua and Mary Harris, in Front Street, Pembroke Dock Bye for now Joy

Many thanks for your clues from the Marriage Index. I'll contact Haverfordwest because I think they might have married after first obtaining a license. The surname is definitely Aubrey or Obray, sometimes even Awbrey. John Barnett Aubrey served an apprenticeship as a Shipwright Boy in Milford. In 1812, he became a full Shipwright and married that same year. Eleanor Allen, born 1789, was the daughter of John Allen, a shipwright who lived at London Road in Pembroke Dock. Interestingly enough, John Barnett Aubrey, died on 12 December 1845. The day before, he had fallen off one of the stages round a vessel in to one of the building slips. There is this notation from a history of Pembroke: "On 19 December 1845, the CJ reported his death." Do you have any idea what CJ might stand for? Could it be a newspaper or an abbreviation related to a coroner's report of some kind? Craig in Texas

Was wondering if some lister might have access to the marriage records of Steynton Parish. Am trying to verify the marriage of John B. Aubrey (Obray) and Eleanor Allen which reportedly took place in Steynton on 20 April 1812. Craig in Houston, Texas

on 27/12/03 6:14 pm, rita woodcock at [email protected] wrote: > > Hello Pembroke, > > New member signing on in hopes someone can help me with an ANN YOUNG born > circa 1823 at a place called FREYSTROP in Pembrokeshire. > > I believe she married a JAMES LITTLE ( my Gt Gt Gt Grandfather) born circa > 1821 in Hungerford in Wilts. > > On the 1861 British Census, if I am correct with Ann's maiden name, the family > were living in Union Street, Pontlottyn, Glamorganshire and had three children > William Little aged 13 yrs, Thomas Little aged 9 yrs and Elizabeth Little aged > 2 yrs. > > Anyone with information on ANN YOUNG would be most welcomed. > > Best Regards and a Happy New Year to you all. > > Rita Hello Rita I checked the 1841 index for the Freystrop area, but unfortunately she is not there. An Ann Young was baptized in Freystrop in 1824, so your next move must be to get a sight of the register (which is at the Pembrokeshire Record Office) to find out the names of her parents. (Or get someone to check it for you.) Her marriage certificate will show her father's name and profession. Freystrop is a parish south of Haverfordwest and about 2 miles by 2 miles in size. Part of its boundary is the Western Cleddau river. No big villages - Freystrop Cross seems to be the only place which has more than a few houses. In 1891 there were 314 people living in Freystrop. Gerry Lewis

on 30/12/03 3:35 am, Jenny Dempster at [email protected] wrote: > Hello all, Happy New Year to everyone. > I have two birth certificates which give place of birth as Mount Hermon, > Parish of Saint Thomas, Haverfordwest However I have just noticed that the > alphabetical listing of parishes on genuki, do not list a Saint Thomas. Can > anyone shed any light on this. thanks > Jenny Dempster, Australia > Hello Jenny In the 1891 census of Haverfordwest St.Thomas there were 6 habitations which had the name Mount Hermon. It's not shown on the up-to-date street map I have of Haverfordwest, but it was between Goat Street and Church Lane in the enumerator's census return, so it might have been in what is now known as Market Street. The heads of households had the following professions/trades: Army Pensioner Charwoman None given (unmarried woman living with her 2 artisan brothers) Signalman, GWRailway Retired Cabinetmaker Agricultural Labourer Gerry Lewis

Hi Libby Is this the same Martha who married Walter John Hoad in 1887? I've been looking back at notes from our earlier converstions around June of last year trying to sort out your info while checking on all the John & Elizabeth Davies - I'll get back to you on those later. You said John Brinn was buried on Ferbruary 13th - which Year? My gues is around 1924-ish???? I am hoping to go to the local ref library next week sometime - so can look around the date to see if anything fits in the BMD index. I know you said you looked on the online site - but having to pay for each view limits the range of checking. Let me know what the year was. I have had several examples in my family searches of misleading dates. One had a burial date and a death date on her gravestone that was the right day and month but one year out according to the death certificate. Another was buried quite some time after his death as it was in an accident and presumably needed investigation. Last but not least my great grandfather was shown as buried several years after he was registered as dead!!! It turned out the burial date was the date of a re-burial presumably as part of the graveyard wwhere is was first buried is now under a main road- several of the family were eventually found to be moved to another graveyard. Looking at your previous questions - one was about William Norman George Davies - who died on Friday July 26 aged 52 but you didn't know the year. You also asked about an obituary for him. I have seen on the FreeBMD site that a birth of William Norman G Davies was registed in Haverfordwest district in the Sept quarter of 1905 (ref 11a/1358) Is this him? If so death could be about 1957. I have checked a calendar program and in 1957 July 26th was a Friday. If you contact Haverfordwest library or the Record Office - they keep copies of the WEstern Telegrah (there are some years in the lib and others in the RO) There are still obituaries in this paper that are often packed with information so maybe they will be able to find one for Norman. - If you haven't already sorted this problem out as it was some time ago when you asked. All for now Pat In message <[email protected]>, Libby <[email protected]> writes >Happy New Year to everyone. I'm finally making some progress on the above >John Brinn. I finally found his 2nd marriage to Martha Brinn on December >25, 1905 in Headington, Oxford. (Don't think that date would be available >these days!!) Then through correspondence with St. Michael's Cemetery in >Pembroke, Wales I have found that he was buried on February 13th at the age >of 75 which jives with the other dates I have so far. I believe I have >found a possible birth for him in the GRO index in the 2nd quarter of 1862, >but have not sent for that one yet. However, and here is my problem, after >doing a search of the 1st Quarter of the 1837 online site for a death of a >John Brinn, I can find no entry. Does this mean the date I received from >the Cemetery records is wrong, it got missed??? Should I apply for the >certificate anyway? If anyone has encountered a similar problem I would be >interested in hearing from you. >Thanks for any and all advice. > >Libby Clarke >Bracebridge, ON >Canada >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/2003 > -- Pat Powell

Hi Pat, Yes indeed it is the same Martha who married Walter John Hoad. I must apologize for not putting the date of John Brinn's death in the email (must learn to proof read!). According to the information I received from the cemetery it was 1937, grave No. F63. As I say, I did check both the last Qtr of 1936 and the 1st and 2nd Qtr of 1937 on the page where the Brinn's should be, but no John's. The information you sent regarding William Norman George Davies would seem to be a good fit. He is the son of William Henry Davies the "Sawyer" in the 1901 Census. So it is conceivable that he was married and had a child by 1905. According to the information I have, William "Norman" George Davies died in South Africa. Would I have to contact there to find his death record? I do not know if his body was returned to Wales, but assume so. I don't have much to go on with regard to where he was.....except that he was prinicipal of Buntingville Methodist Mission school. I've done a google search and have not been able to come up with anything regarding this school. I certainly appreciate all the work you are doing for me. I will contact the library to see what, if any information they might have with regard to an obituary. Take care and I look forward to any further information you might uncover. Libby Clarke Bracebridge, ON -----Original Message----- From: Pat Powell [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: January 2, 2004 7:57 AM To: Libby Cc: [email protected] Subject: [WLS-PEM] RE: John Brinn Hi Libby Is this the same Martha who married Walter John Hoad in 1887? I've been looking back at notes from our earlier converstions around June of last year trying to sort out your info while checking on all the John & Elizabeth Davies - I'll get back to you on those later. You said John Brinn was buried on Ferbruary 13th - which Year? My gues is around 1924-ish???? I am hoping to go to the local ref library next week sometime - so can look around the date to see if anything fits in the BMD index. I know you said you looked on the online site - but having to pay for each view limits the range of checking. Let me know what the year was. I have had several examples in my family searches of misleading dates. One had a burial date and a death date on her gravestone that was the right day and month but one year out according to the death certificate. Another was buried quite some time after his death as it was in an accident and presumably needed investigation. Last but not least my great grandfather was shown as buried several years after he was registered as dead!!! It turned out the burial date was the date of a re-burial presumably as part of the graveyard wwhere is was first buried is now under a main road- several of the family were eventually found to be moved to another graveyard. Looking at your previous questions - one was about William Norman George Davies - who died on Friday July 26 aged 52 but you didn't know the year. You also asked about an obituary for him. I have seen on the FreeBMD site that a birth of William Norman G Davies was registed in Haverfordwest district in the Sept quarter of 1905 (ref 11a/1358) Is this him? If so death could be about 1957. I have checked a calendar program and in 1957 July 26th was a Friday. If you contact Haverfordwest library or the Record Office - they keep copies of the WEstern Telegrah (there are some years in the lib and others in the RO) There are still obituaries in this paper that are often packed with information so maybe they will be able to find one for Norman. - If you haven't already sorted this problem out as it was some time ago when you asked. All for now Pat In message <[email protected]>, Libby <[email protected]> writes >Happy New Year to everyone. I'm finally making some progress on the above >John Brinn. I finally found his 2nd marriage to Martha Brinn on December >25, 1905 in Headington, Oxford. (Don't think that date would be available >these days!!) Then through correspondence with St. Michael's Cemetery in >Pembroke, Wales I have found that he was buried on February 13th at the age >of 75 which jives with the other dates I have so far. I believe I have >found a possible birth for him in the GRO index in the 2nd quarter of 1862, >but have not sent for that one yet. However, and here is my problem, after >doing a search of the 1st Quarter of the 1837 online site for a death of a >John Brinn, I can find no entry. Does this mean the date I received from >the Cemetery records is wrong, it got missed??? Should I apply for the >certificate anyway? If anyone has encountered a similar problem I would be >interested in hearing from you. >Thanks for any and all advice. > >Libby Clarke >Bracebridge, ON >Canada >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/2003 > -- Pat Powell --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/2003

Happy New Year to everyone. I'm finally making some progress on the above John Brinn. I finally found his 2nd marriage to Martha Brinn on December 25, 1905 in Headington, Oxford. (Don't think that date would be available these days!!) Then through correspondence with St. Michael's Cemetery in Pembroke, Wales I have found that he was buried on February 13th at the age of 75 which jives with the other dates I have so far. I believe I have found a possible birth for him in the GRO index in the 2nd quarter of 1862, but have not sent for that one yet. However, and here is my problem, after doing a search of the 1st Quarter of the 1837 online site for a death of a John Brinn, I can find no entry. Does this mean the date I received from the Cemetery records is wrong, it got missed??? Should I apply for the certificate anyway? If anyone has encountered a similar problem I would be interested in hearing from you. Thanks for any and all advice. Libby Clarke Bracebridge, ON Canada --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/2003

Dear Pat and Libby, At least my popping in my two-pennyworth has brought forth the lawyer/sawyer discussion and may lead to clarification. Thanks, Pat. As to the name Elizabeth, at least you are Libby and I am Bettye with an "e" which my mother assured me was to identify the fact that I was NOT an Elizabeth. My mother's second name was Letitia and someone once told me that the Welsh version, Lettice, could also be an alternative for Elizabeth. As the List is quiet, has anyone any thoughts on this? It would be rather ironic if my mother, unknowingly, carried a version of Elizabeth herself. Bettye Kirkwood

Dear All, Just to get the ball rolling for 2004 I thought I would begin by reposting my interests in Pembrokeshire. They are: FEILD FERRIOR ELLIOT ROWE DAVIES - Talbenny/St. Ishmaels CORNOCK HOWELL - Hubberston ADAM ANDREW THOMAS of Llanstadwell/Walton West I also have a website dedicated to my Pembrokeshire ancestors and their many connections. You can find it at http://www.genealogy.com/users/s/t/l/Rosemary-St-legermay/ Happy New Year to Everyone Rose

I'd like to wish all listers a very happy and successful 2004; may a few more of those brick walls come tumbling down Thank you all for supporting the lists over the last 12 months Gareth List administrator for DYFED, CGN & PEM Genuki Wales http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/ Lookup Exchange http://home.clara.net/tirbach/lookup.html Help Page http://home.clara.net/tirbach/hicks.html .