Graham William <robert.williams438@ntlworld.co.uk> wrote: Little do these [Welsh nationalist] wallahs know that weve been speaking english in Cardiff for at least 350 years.(all of the Cardiff St;Johns Registers are written in English,and they go back to 1631) These same Welsh nationalist Wallah,s have invented their own language,on what they call themselves.Ive seen some of them called "derric instead of derek. or ffrancis. also some have gone for the ap version. ================= Dear Graham, Surely there is false logic in your argument? Some old parish register entries were written in ecclesiastical Latin, but we do not draw from this the conclusion that Latin was the language of the local people. Similarly, the fact that entries in the old registers for St John's parish Cardiff may have been written in English is not evidence that the local population spoke English. The registers were written in English because that was the language of the clergy and their bishops. Parish registers throughout Wales were written in English (or Latin), even in remote regions of Wales where few people spoke or understood English. You would need other evidence to support your claim that English has been the language of Cardiff for 350 years. As for using Welsh spellings of personal names, that is surely a matter of personal choice. Most languages have examples of the modification of the spellings of foreign words and names when they become incorporated into the language. For example, the Germanic name Willhelm became William after being introduced into England by the Normans. Source: "The Oxford Names Companion" by Patrick Hanks, Flavia Hodges, A. D. Mills, and Adrian Room, published in 2002 by Oxford University Press; ISBN 0-19-860561-7. Kind regards, John ---------------------------- John Ball, Ystalyfera, South Wales, UK E-mail: wfha@clara.co.uk Homepage: http://home.clara.net/wfha/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 09/10/2003

In support of what John has written, and having extracted Welsh clergy records from 1540 - 1835, I can confirm that down to 1730 the registers of Cardiff St John were written in Latin, not English. Another unfortunate example to take was "ffrancis". The upper case 'F' was invariably written 'ff' both in England and Wales. On the more general point (and I speak as an English immigrant), I see no reason at all why a nation should not be proud of its language and heritage. I spent 18 years in Oman and took it for granted that I should make some effort to learn Arabic and the same applies to Welsh. However, as Graham implies, it is ironic that Cardiff, the most English town in Wales, should have been chosen as the capital. Size is not everything and, in my view, Aberystwyth would be a far better choice. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ball" <wfha@clara.co.uk> To: <WLS-CARDIGANSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 8:08 AM Subject: [WLS-CGN] English or Welsh in Cardiff? (formerly "addition to last message") > Graham William <robert.williams438@ntlworld.co.uk> wrote: > Little do these [Welsh nationalist] wallahs know that weve been speaking > english in Cardiff for at least 350 years.(all of the Cardiff St;Johns > Registers are written in English,and they go back to 1631) > These same Welsh nationalist Wallah,s have invented their own > language,on what they call themselves.Ive seen some of them called > "derric instead of derek. or ffrancis. also some have gone for the ap > version. > ================= > > Dear Graham, > > Surely there is false logic in your argument? > Some old parish register entries were written in ecclesiastical Latin, > but we do not draw from this the conclusion that Latin was the language > of the local people. > Similarly, the fact that entries in the old registers for St John's > parish Cardiff may have been written in English is not evidence that the > local population spoke English. The registers were written in English > because that was the language of the clergy and their bishops. Parish > registers throughout Wales were written in English (or Latin), even in > remote regions of Wales where few people spoke or understood English. > > You would need other evidence to support your claim that English has > been the language of Cardiff for 350 years. > > As for using Welsh spellings of personal names, that is surely a matter > of personal choice. Most languages have examples of the modification of > the spellings of foreign words and names when they become incorporated > into the language. For example, the Germanic name Willhelm became > William after being introduced into England by the Normans. > > Source: "The Oxford Names Companion" by Patrick Hanks, Flavia Hodges, A. > D. Mills, and Adrian Room, published in 2002 by Oxford University Press; > ISBN 0-19-860561-7. > > Kind regards, > > John > ---------------------------- > John Ball, Ystalyfera, South Wales, UK > E-mail: wfha@clara.co.uk > Homepage: http://home.clara.net/wfha/ > Welsh Family History Archive: http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/ > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 09/10/2003 > > > ==== WLS-CARDIGANSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Welsh Family History Archive http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ball" <wfha@clara.co.uk> To: <WLS-CARDIGANSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 8:08 AM Subject: [WLS-CGN] English or Welsh in Cardiff? (formerly "addition to last message") > Graham William <robert.williams438@ntlworld.co.uk> wrote: > Little do these [Welsh nationalist] wallahs know that weve been speaking > english in Cardiff for at least 350 years.(all of the Cardiff St;Johns > Registers are written in English,and they go back to 1631) > These same Welsh nationalist Wallah,s have invented their own > language,on what they call themselves.Ive seen some of them called > "derric instead of derek. or ffrancis. also some have gone for the ap > version. > ================= > > Dear Graham, > > Surely there is false logic in your argument? > Some old parish register entries were written in ecclesiastical Latin, > but we do not draw from this the conclusion that Latin was the language > of the local people. > Similarly, the fact that entries in the old registers for St John's > parish Cardiff may have been written in English is not evidence that the > local population spoke English. The registers were written in English > because that was the language of the clergy and their bishops. Parish > registers throughout Wales were written in English (or Latin), even in > remote regions of Wales where few people spoke or understood English. > > You would need other evidence to support your claim that English has > been the language of Cardiff for 350 years. > > As for using Welsh spellings of personal names, that is surely a matter > of personal choice. Most languages have examples of the modification of > the spellings of foreign words and names when they become incorporated > into the language. For example, the Germanic name Willhelm became > William after being introduced into England by the Normans. > > Source: "The Oxford Names Companion" by Patrick Hanks, Flavia Hodges, A. > D. Mills, and Adrian Room, published in 2002 by Oxford University Press; > ISBN 0-19-860561-7. > > Kind regards, > > John > ---------------------------- > John Ball, Ystalyfera, South Wales, UK > E-mail: wfha@clara.co.uk > Homepage: http://home.clara.net/wfha/ > Welsh Family History Archive: http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/ > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 09/10/2003 > > > ==== WLS-CARDIGANSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Welsh Family History Archive http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/index.htm > >