I am trying to research my Great Great Grandfather - Evan Griffith. I can't find his marriage or birth certificate. Evan Griffith is the name on his death certificate (8 May 1921, aged 69, in Bethel, Caernarvonshire), and in the 1891 and 1901 census, as well as the birth certificate of one of his sons, Evan Hugh Griffith on 18 May 1891. The census all say he was born in 1852 in Llanrug. But I've been on 1837online and can't a birth in that region - one in Caernarvon but not Llanrug. But with the patronymic system it seems he may not be on his own marriage or birth certificate as Evan Griffith, but as some other name? How do people know, if names have been changed, that you have the right person??? I don't know his parents names, and have hit a brickwall with this branch of my family. Can anyone give me some advice about how to break through this? Thanks, Jonathan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Jones" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:20 PM Subject: Patronymic confusion > The Welsh patronymic system > > If a man's name was Rhys and his father's name was Owen then he would > be known as "Rhys fab Owen" [Rhys son (of) Owen]. (The 'of' is > implied as Welsh has no case endings and the normal genitive > construction requires no preposition, corresponding to 'of'.) The > Welsh for son is 'mab' but such a noun in apposition to a personal > name undergoes lenition (mutation) to 'fab'. The Welsh 'f' sound > corresponds to the soft English 'v' sound and over time it was lost > to give "Rhys ab Owen". > > A medieval Welshman would know his male lineage, i.e. the names of > his male ancestors for perhaps six or seven generations, e.g. Rhys ab > Owen ap Llywelyn ap Gryffydd ap Dafydd ap Cadwaladr etc. ('Mab' in > old medieval Welsh was written 'map', cognate of the Gaelic 'mac', so > that 'ap' as well as 'ab' may be seen in lineages, usually 'ap' > before a consonant and 'ab' before a vowel.) > > Thus the original Celtic patronymic system was quite a simple, > straightforward chain of names. Patronymic naming systems were quite > general in Europe and Asia in the past and they still operate in > Iceland to this day. > > However in later centuries the 'ab' (or 'ap') was either dropped or > sometimes assimilated into the following name. So a Dafydd ab Owen at > some point in time would become either Dafydd Owen, or possibly > Dafydd Bowen. Other examples of assimilation are 'Bevan' from 'ab > Evan', 'Probert' from 'ap Robert' and 'Powell' from 'ap Howell'. > Later Owen might have become Owens (genitive s). Similarly David > tended to become Davies and John to become Jones (the latter > originated as an English surname). > > All the confusion and inconsistency which bedevils anyone researching > their Welsh ancestors has its roots during the period when the Welsh > were changing to the fixed English-style surname system. During this > transition period a Welsh person's last name may appear to be a fixed > surname but he/she may still have been named in a patronymic manner. > Often it seems that the owner of the name wasn't too sure himself. > (See examples below.) > > The transition period depended on geography and status, i.e. how > close the area was to English influence and on the social status of > the family. The higher up the social scale, the earlier the change > was likely to take place. A middle-class Welsh family in an > English-influenced area would be likely to have changed to a fixed > surname as much as 150 years before a tenant farmer in a remote part > of Caernarvonshire or Anglesey (where it occurred as late as 1870). > > The four extracts below gives some indication of the inconsistency > and uncertainty which prevailed during the transition period. > > -- 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Caernarfonshire 18th - 19th century > > Three examples from just south-west of Pwllheli, Caernarfonshire > given in 'Welsh Family History' ed. J Rowlands. The last names > WILLIAMS and ROBERTS appear to be fixed surnames yet the owners seem > to be hovering between using a fixed surname system and the old > patronymic system. > > 1) The children of Robert WILLIAMS of Llanbedrog bore the final name > of ROBERTS in the 1841 census but WILLIAMS in the 1851 census. > > 2) In the 1851 census, Ellis WILLIAMS of Llanfihangel Bachellaeth had > five children with the final name of ELLIS. > > 3) In 1862 the marriage took place in Llangian of Ellen ROBERTS, > daughter of Robert JONES. > > Remote areas of Anglesey and Caernarfonshire persisted with the > patronymic system up to 1870. > > NB A monospaced font such as 'Monaco' or 'Courier' needed for > displaying lineages correctly. > > From the upper Conway valley we have the following example. > > Lewis EVANS = Elizabeth CADWALLADR May 1742 > | > Gwen LEWIS = William JONES Sep 1779 > | > Elizabeth WILLIAMS = Hugh PRICE May 1806 > | > Lewis PRICE = Ellen JONES 1849 > > The individuals appear to have regular surnames but in fact the > offspring's second name is formed from the given name of the father, > i.e. patronymically. This appears to cease at Hugh PRICE, however his > son Lewis PRICE is recorded on his marriage certificate as Lewis > HUGHES! > > -- 2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pembrokeshire 18th century > > The populous (in local terms) parish of St David's had distinctive > surnames in the eighteenth century, among them Amblott, Grinish, > Oakley, Pardoe, Stork, Tegan, etc, as well as the commoner Welsh > names. > > The marriage registers show few clear patronymic names: in 1737 (i) > John Evan Morris married Margaret Symmon and (ii) Thomas Hugh Emont > married Margaret Moses. The following baptisms show the different > ways in which the clergy might deal with the next stage of parish > register entries : > > 1738 David son of John Evan and Margaret Morrice; > 1745 Thomas son of John and Margaret Evan Morrice. > > 1738 Dorathy daughter of Thomas and Margaret Hugh Emont; > 1740 Jane daughter of Thomas and Margaret Hugh alias Emont. > > In 1747 Thomas Hugh alias Emont of St David's was buried at the age > of 66. A later sighting of this family occurs in 1764, when Elizabeth > Hugh (according to the clerk's entry) married Edmond Hulme, signing > as Elizabeth Hugh Edmund - the final name has, of course, nothing to > do with the groom's forename. > > In Cilrhedyn in 1760 the marriage took place of Evan Rees and Elinor > John, widow. The groom signed as Evan Prothero. The marriage bond > names the couple as Evan Prytherch and Elinor George, widow. Here the > bride has an alternative name. Presumably one was her maiden name. > (Prothero is one English variant of the Welsh Prytherch.) > > -- 3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Merionethshire 18th - 19th century > > Thomas ap Robert of Derwen (died 1738) married Gwen Cadwalader, the > daughter of Cadwalader ap Hugh of Llandderfel (died 1716) - the > latter's full patronymic name was Cadwalader ap Hugh ap leuan ap Rhys > Goch. The son of Thomas and Gwen was known as Cadwalader Thomas > (1719-93), and his son as Thomas Cadwalader (1746-1836). The next > descendant, born 1791, was known as Thomas ap Thomas Cadwalader, but > was buried in 1843 at Betws Gwerful Goch as Thomas Cadwalader. The > latter's son (born 1835) married in 1866 as Edward Thomas, naming his > father as Thomas Thomas (blacksmith, deceased). The descendants of > Edward Thomas carry the surname Thomas to the present day. > > Cadwalader ap Hugh > | > Thomas ap Robert = Gwen Cadwalader > | > Cadwalader Thomas (1719-93) > | > Thomas Cadwalader (1746-1836) > | > Thomas ap Thomas Cadwalader (1791-1843) > | > Edward Thomas (1835- ) > > Inconsistency reigns in the following example. Hugh Humphrey > (1729-1823) of Maentwrog was married twice. By his first wife he had > children known by the following names: Robert Hugh ; Edmund Humphrey > ; Margaret Hugh. By his second wife he had: Humphrey Pugh (i.e. ap + > Hugh); Elizabeth Hugh or Hughes; Ellis Humphrey or Humphreys; Richard > Humphreys. This example illustrates how children could take both the > father's and grandfather's forenames; how ap might be attached to > such names; and how the genitive 's' became increasingly acceptable > with passing time. > > There is evidence of the continued use of the mother's maiden name in > nineteenth century Meirionethshire. A frequent pattern for baptisms > in parish registers is: 1810, Margaret daughter of John Hugh, yeoman, > and Jane Williams his wife; 1811, Margaret daughter of William > Richard, yeoman, and Catherine Owen his wife. > > -- 4 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Monmouthshire 17th century > > Complete confusion here! In the will of Harry David Powell of 1604, > reference is made to 'Elizabeth Harry, my daughter; John Harry, my > son; Samuel Powell, my son; Cecil Harry, my daughter'. The same John > Harry is referred to in a pedigree as John ap Howell, so that he and > his brother Samuel used their great-grandfather's name. It seems the > name Harry David Powell may have stood for Harry ap David ap Howell. > > -- 5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From research carried out by Rob Adams 'The Surnames of Llanafan > Fawr' published in Cronical Powys, December 2002, the patronymical > system (in the rural and remote parish of Llanafan Fawr, Breconshire) > was in full operation until the early years of the seventeenth > century across all sections of society. During the mid to latter part > of that century the terms 'ap' and 'verch' disappear from written > records and some inhabitants start adopting hereditary surnames. > For the upper classes this process was complete for the children of > the generation dying around 1740. For the rest patronymics was > abandoned during the remainder of that century and appears to be > complete by the early 1800s. (The new parish registers introduced in > January 1813 probably helped the process.) Running parallel to the > process was the adoption of the possessive style surname which > occurred during the eighteenth century, especially the latter part. > > In Cardiganshire the change from a second name of JOHN to JONES and > DAVID to DAVIES took place gradually during the 18th century. > (Between 1770 and 1779 the incidence of JOHN and JONES (and DAVID and > DAVIES) were about the same.) Just because a second name was JONES or > DAVIES during the transitional period does not necessarily mean that > it was used as a fixed English-style surname. > > Secondly, the surname taken did not have to be the father's given > name. Consider the person, "Gwilym ap Sion ap Thomas". If he chose to > be named after his father a scribe might render his name as 'William > Jones or Shone' or 'William Thomas' if after his grandfather. The > latter especially if his grandfather were long-lived or was better > off than his father (or if William had "expectations" with regard to > his grandfather's will). > > From the above examples it appears that often during the transitional > period the patronymic system still operated covertly by the addition > of a genitive 's' as shown below. > > Evan HUGHES > | > Robert EVANS > | > Hugh ROBERTS > | > John HUGHES > > So it is important to bear in mind how fluid, inconsistent and > interchangeable the naming systems were during the transition period > and to be on guard when examining old parish registers etc. > > -- 7 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is a complication if you happen to use the IGI for Wales on > microfiche, which presumably still exists in the on-line version. > > From 1 January 1813 the established church started to use a standard > printed baptism register with a column for the parents' surname. > > When the IGI was started in 1968, the LDS decided that all baptisms > in Wales before 1 January 1813 would be entered with the father's > given name as the child's 'surname' in the surname index. > > For the early period covered by the IGI most Welsh people had not > adopted fixed English-style surnames and were following the naming > pattern in which the son of David Evan would be known as Thomas David. > > However the above cut-off date was applied to IGI entries irrespective of > whether the parents were actually following the Welsh patronymic system or had > adopted fixed English-style surnames. > > N.B. There is a 'Surname Index' and a 'Given Name Index' for each Welsh county. > > Suppose, William, the son of John and Mary Thomas was baptised in > 1812 (or earlier), then he would appear thus: > > In the Given Name Index (indexed under William) > William (son of) John Thomas / Mary > > In the Surname Index (indexed under John - his father's given name) > John, William (son of) John Thomas / Mary > > However, if baptised in 1813 (or later) he would appear thus: > > In the Given Name Index (indexed under William) > William (son of) John Thomas / Mary > > In the Surname Index (indexed under Thomas - his father's surname) > Thomas, William (son of) John Thomas / Mary > > In one instance we have Elizabeth, the daughter of Lewis BRIGSTOCK > (originally an immigrant from England), who was baptised in 1716 and > appears in the Welsh IGI Surname Index as Elizabeth LEWIS when the > family clearly had a fixed English surname! > > The LDS indexers blindly followed the rule in the vast majority of > cases but there are instances where some pre-1813 baptisms have been > indexed under the 'correct' surname! > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------- > > There is also a briefer explanation of patronymics on the web-page below:- > http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~wyside01/helps/patronym.htm#example > > Other sources on Welsh surnames: > > 'The Surnames of Wales' by John & Sheila Rowlands > Federation of Family History Societies (Publications) Ltd 1996 > ISBN 1-86006-025-0 > > 'Welsh Surnames' by T. J. Morgan and Prys Morgan > University of Wales Press 1985 > ISBN 0-7083-0936-4 > > -- > Regards > Dick Jones Leigh-on-Sea Essex UK > [email protected] > > ______________________________

Unless you know the name of the father it might be impossible to find what Evan Griffith's patronymic name was (assuming here that Evan was not the son of Griffith XXXX). One clue that may be of help is the name of the son, obviously Evan after his father, possibly given his father's "full name" so Evan senior might be Evan the son of Hugh the son of Griffith. This might prove to be wrong but it might also be worth keeping in mind whilst searching the records. You will not find a birth in Llanrug on the 1837 on-line documents. The place name in the index copies on 1837 is the name of the registration office and not the place of birth. As Llanrug births would have been registered in Caernarfon registrar's office the name that you found in Caernarfon may be the one that you want. All the best Alwyn -----Original Message----- From: D J P Morris [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 24 October 2004 16:31 To: [email protected] Subject: [CAE] Re: Patronymic confusion - EVAN GRIFFITH ? I am trying to research my Great Great Grandfather - Evan Griffith. I can't find his marriage or birth certificate. Evan Griffith is the name on his death certificate (8 May 1921, aged 69, in Bethel, Caernarvonshire), and in the 1891 and 1901 census, as well as the birth certificate of one of his sons, Evan Hugh Griffith on 18 May 1891. The census all say he was born in 1852 in Llanrug. But I've been on 1837online and can't a birth in that region - one in Caernarvon but not Llanrug. But with the patronymic system it seems he may not be on his own marriage or birth certificate as Evan Griffith, but as some other name? How do people know, if names have been changed, that you have the right person??? I don't know his parents names, and have hit a brickwall with this branch of my family. Can anyone give me some advice about how to break through this? Thanks, Jonathan --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 22/10/2004

Jonathan, Just to clarify, there is no Llanrug registration district, it will come under Carnarvon. I would imagine that the Evan Griffith registered in 1852 would be the son of Griffith & Jane. As to the patronymic question, I would take it that he would appear on all certificates as "Evan Griffith(s)" seeing that he was recorded in the censuses in this way (normal usage). As you are aware, it is vitally important that you find his marriage if you are to link him to Griffith & Jane Griffiths.You have his wife Jane's maiden name so it should be relatively simple (theoretically) to find the marriage. As Jane was born in Anglesey bear in mind that the marriage could well have taken place here and the registers are held at the Llangefni Register Office. Also Bangor Registration District covered a part of the island at one point too, so it is vital to check here as well. The eldest child, Sarah, does not appear on the 1881 as far as I can see, even though she is 10 years old on the 1891 census, so it could be possible that she was born before the marriage and was enumerated under her mother's maiden name, which could indicate that the marriage was later than anticipated, so you need to check a few years after the birth. Regards, Keith. ----- Original Message ----- From: "D J P Morris" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:31 PM Subject: [CAE] Re: Patronymic confusion - EVAN GRIFFITH ? > I am trying to research my Great Great Grandfather - Evan Griffith. I can't > find his marriage or birth certificate. Evan Griffith is the name on his > death certificate (8 May 1921, aged 69, in Bethel, Caernarvonshire), and in > the 1891 and 1901 census, as well as the birth certificate of one of his > sons, Evan Hugh Griffith on 18 May 1891. The census all say he was born in > 1852 in Llanrug. But I've been on 1837online and can't a birth in that > region - one in Caernarvon but not Llanrug. > > But with the patronymic system it seems he may not be on his own marriage or > birth certificate as Evan Griffith, but as some other name? How do people > know, if names have been changed, that you have the right person??? > > I don't know his parents names, and have hit a brickwall with this branch of > my family. Can anyone give me some advice about how to break through this? > > Thanks, > Jonathan

Have a look at the one in Cae, See what you can find out with the parents name and address given. The birth would have been registered in Bangor, CAE for Llanrug. Worth spending some time checking out. Good luck, Arlene On Oct 24, 2004, at 8:31 AM, D J P Morris wrote: > I am trying to research my Great Great Grandfather - Evan Griffith. I > can't > find his marriage or birth certificate. Evan Griffith is the name on > his > death certificate (8 May 1921, aged 69, in Bethel, Caernarvonshire), > and in > the 1891 and 1901 census, as well as the birth certificate of one of > his > sons, Evan Hugh Griffith on 18 May 1891. The census all say he was > born in > 1852 in Llanrug. But I've been on 1837online and can't a birth in that > region - one in Caernarvon but not Llanrug. > > But with the patronymic system it seems he may not be on his own > marriage or > birth certificate as Evan Griffith, but as some other name? How do > people > know, if names have been changed, that you have the right person??? > > I don't know his parents names, and have hit a brickwall with this > branch of > my family. Can anyone give me some advice about how to break through > this? > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Jones" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:20 PM > Subject: Patronymic confusion > > >> The Welsh patronymic system >> >> If a man's name was Rhys and his father's name was Owen then he would >> be known as "Rhys fab Owen" [Rhys son (of) Owen]. (The 'of' is >> implied as Welsh has no case endings and the normal genitive >> construction requires no preposition, corresponding to 'of'.) The >> Welsh for son is 'mab' but such a noun in apposition to a personal >> name undergoes lenition (mutation) to 'fab'. The Welsh 'f' sound >> corresponds to the soft English 'v' sound and over time it was lost >> to give "Rhys ab Owen". >> >> A medieval Welshman would know his male lineage, i.e. the names of >> his male ancestors for perhaps six or seven generations, e.g. Rhys ab >> Owen ap Llywelyn ap Gryffydd ap Dafydd ap Cadwaladr etc. ('Mab' in >> old medieval Welsh was written 'map', cognate of the Gaelic 'mac', so >> that 'ap' as well as 'ab' may be seen in lineages, usually 'ap' >> before a consonant and 'ab' before a vowel.) >> >> Thus the original Celtic patronymic system was quite a simple, >> straightforward chain of names. Patronymic naming systems were quite >> general in Europe and Asia in the past and they still operate in >> Iceland to this day. >> >> However in later centuries the 'ab' (or 'ap') was either dropped or >> sometimes assimilated into the following name. So a Dafydd ab Owen at >> some point in time would become either Dafydd Owen, or possibly >> Dafydd Bowen. Other examples of assimilation are 'Bevan' from 'ab >> Evan', 'Probert' from 'ap Robert' and 'Powell' from 'ap Howell'. >> Later Owen might have become Owens (genitive s). Similarly David >> tended to become Davies and John to become Jones (the latter >> originated as an English surname). >> >> All the confusion and inconsistency which bedevils anyone researching >> their Welsh ancestors has its roots during the period when the Welsh >> were changing to the fixed English-style surname system. During this >> transition period a Welsh person's last name may appear to be a fixed >> surname but he/she may still have been named in a patronymic manner. >> Often it seems that the owner of the name wasn't too sure himself. >> (See examples below.) >> >> The transition period depended on geography and status, i.e. how >> close the area was to English influence and on the social status of >> the family. The higher up the social scale, the earlier the change >> was likely to take place. A middle-class Welsh family in an >> English-influenced area would be likely to have changed to a fixed >> surname as much as 150 years before a tenant farmer in a remote part >> of Caernarvonshire or Anglesey (where it occurred as late as 1870). >> >> The four extracts below gives some indication of the inconsistency >> and uncertainty which prevailed during the transition period. >> >> -- > 1 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> Caernarfonshire 18th - 19th century >> >> Three examples from just south-west of Pwllheli, Caernarfonshire >> given in 'Welsh Family History' ed. J Rowlands. The last names >> WILLIAMS and ROBERTS appear to be fixed surnames yet the owners seem >> to be hovering between using a fixed surname system and the old >> patronymic system. >> >> 1) The children of Robert WILLIAMS of Llanbedrog bore the final name >> of ROBERTS in the 1841 census but WILLIAMS in the 1851 census. >> >> 2) In the 1851 census, Ellis WILLIAMS of Llanfihangel Bachellaeth had >> five children with the final name of ELLIS. >> >> 3) In 1862 the marriage took place in Llangian of Ellen ROBERTS, >> daughter of Robert JONES. >> >> Remote areas of Anglesey and Caernarfonshire persisted with the >> patronymic system up to 1870. >> >> NB A monospaced font such as 'Monaco' or 'Courier' needed for >> displaying lineages correctly. >> >> From the upper Conway valley we have the following example. >> >> Lewis EVANS = Elizabeth CADWALLADR May 1742 >> | >> Gwen LEWIS = William JONES Sep 1779 >> | >> Elizabeth WILLIAMS = Hugh PRICE May 1806 >> | >> Lewis PRICE = Ellen JONES 1849 >> >> The individuals appear to have regular surnames but in fact the >> offspring's second name is formed from the given name of the father, >> i.e. patronymically. This appears to cease at Hugh PRICE, however his >> son Lewis PRICE is recorded on his marriage certificate as Lewis >> HUGHES! >> >> -- > 2 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> Pembrokeshire 18th century >> >> The populous (in local terms) parish of St David's had distinctive >> surnames in the eighteenth century, among them Amblott, Grinish, >> Oakley, Pardoe, Stork, Tegan, etc, as well as the commoner Welsh >> names. >> >> The marriage registers show few clear patronymic names: in 1737 (i) >> John Evan Morris married Margaret Symmon and (ii) Thomas Hugh Emont >> married Margaret Moses. The following baptisms show the different >> ways in which the clergy might deal with the next stage of parish >> register entries : >> >> 1738 David son of John Evan and Margaret Morrice; >> 1745 Thomas son of John and Margaret Evan Morrice. >> >> 1738 Dorathy daughter of Thomas and Margaret Hugh Emont; >> 1740 Jane daughter of Thomas and Margaret Hugh alias Emont. >> >> In 1747 Thomas Hugh alias Emont of St David's was buried at the age >> of 66. A later sighting of this family occurs in 1764, when Elizabeth >> Hugh (according to the clerk's entry) married Edmond Hulme, signing >> as Elizabeth Hugh Edmund - the final name has, of course, nothing to >> do with the groom's forename. >> >> In Cilrhedyn in 1760 the marriage took place of Evan Rees and Elinor >> John, widow. The groom signed as Evan Prothero. The marriage bond >> names the couple as Evan Prytherch and Elinor George, widow. Here the >> bride has an alternative name. Presumably one was her maiden name. >> (Prothero is one English variant of the Welsh Prytherch.) >> >> -- > 3 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> Merionethshire 18th - 19th century >> >> Thomas ap Robert of Derwen (died 1738) married Gwen Cadwalader, the >> daughter of Cadwalader ap Hugh of Llandderfel (died 1716) - the >> latter's full patronymic name was Cadwalader ap Hugh ap leuan ap Rhys >> Goch. The son of Thomas and Gwen was known as Cadwalader Thomas >> (1719-93), and his son as Thomas Cadwalader (1746-1836). The next >> descendant, born 1791, was known as Thomas ap Thomas Cadwalader, but >> was buried in 1843 at Betws Gwerful Goch as Thomas Cadwalader. The >> latter's son (born 1835) married in 1866 as Edward Thomas, naming his >> father as Thomas Thomas (blacksmith, deceased). The descendants of >> Edward Thomas carry the surname Thomas to the present day. >> >> >> Cadwalader ap > Hugh >> | >> Thomas ap Robert = Gwen Cadwalader >> | >> Cadwalader Thomas (1719-93) >> | >> Thomas Cadwalader (1746-1836) >> | >> Thomas ap Thomas Cadwalader (1791-1843) >> | >> Edward Thomas (1835- ) >> >> Inconsistency reigns in the following example. Hugh Humphrey >> (1729-1823) of Maentwrog was married twice. By his first wife he had >> children known by the following names: Robert Hugh ; Edmund Humphrey >> ; Margaret Hugh. By his second wife he had: Humphrey Pugh (i.e. ap + >> Hugh); Elizabeth Hugh or Hughes; Ellis Humphrey or Humphreys; Richard >> Humphreys. This example illustrates how children could take both the >> father's and grandfather's forenames; how ap might be attached to >> such names; and how the genitive 's' became increasingly acceptable >> with passing time. >> >> There is evidence of the continued use of the mother's maiden name in >> nineteenth century Meirionethshire. A frequent pattern for baptisms >> in parish registers is: 1810, Margaret daughter of John Hugh, yeoman, >> and Jane Williams his wife; 1811, Margaret daughter of William >> Richard, yeoman, and Catherine Owen his wife. >> >> -- > 4 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> Monmouthshire 17th century >> >> Complete confusion here! In the will of Harry David Powell of 1604, >> reference is made to 'Elizabeth Harry, my daughter; John Harry, my >> son; Samuel Powell, my son; Cecil Harry, my daughter'. The same John >> Harry is referred to in a pedigree as John ap Howell, so that he and >> his brother Samuel used their great-grandfather's name. It seems the >> name Harry David Powell may have stood for Harry ap David ap Howell. >> >> -- > 5 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> From research carried out by Rob Adams 'The Surnames of Llanafan >> Fawr' published in Cronical Powys, December 2002, the patronymical >> system (in the rural and remote parish of Llanafan Fawr, Breconshire) >> was in full operation until the early years of the seventeenth >> century across all sections of society. During the mid to latter part >> of that century the terms 'ap' and 'verch' disappear from written >> records and some inhabitants start adopting hereditary surnames. >> For the upper classes this process was complete for the children of >> the generation dying around 1740. For the rest patronymics was >> abandoned during the remainder of that century and appears to be >> complete by the early 1800s. (The new parish registers introduced in >> January 1813 probably helped the process.) Running parallel to the >> process was the adoption of the possessive style surname which >> occurred during the eighteenth century, especially the latter part. >> >> In Cardiganshire the change from a second name of JOHN to JONES and >> DAVID to DAVIES took place gradually during the 18th century. >> (Between 1770 and 1779 the incidence of JOHN and JONES (and DAVID and >> DAVIES) were about the same.) Just because a second name was JONES or >> DAVIES during the transitional period does not necessarily mean that >> it was used as a fixed English-style surname. >> >> Secondly, the surname taken did not have to be the father's given >> name. Consider the person, "Gwilym ap Sion ap Thomas". If he chose to >> be named after his father a scribe might render his name as 'William >> Jones or Shone' or 'William Thomas' if after his grandfather. The >> latter especially if his grandfather were long-lived or was better >> off than his father (or if William had "expectations" with regard to >> his grandfather's will). >> >> From the above examples it appears that often during the transitional >> period the patronymic system still operated covertly by the addition >> of a genitive 's' as shown below. >> >> Evan HUGHES >> | >> Robert EVANS >> | >> Hugh ROBERTS >> | >> John HUGHES >> >> So it is important to bear in mind how fluid, inconsistent and >> interchangeable the naming systems were during the transition period >> and to be on guard when examining old parish registers etc. >> >> -- > 7 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> There is a complication if you happen to use the IGI for Wales on >> microfiche, which presumably still exists in the on-line version. >> >> From 1 January 1813 the established church started to use a standard >> printed baptism register with a column for the parents' surname. >> >> When the IGI was started in 1968, the LDS decided that all baptisms >> in Wales before 1 January 1813 would be entered with the father's >> given name as the child's 'surname' in the surname index. >> >> For the early period covered by the IGI most Welsh people had not >> adopted fixed English-style surnames and were following the naming >> pattern in which the son of David Evan would be known as Thomas David. >> >> However the above cut-off date was applied to IGI entries >> irrespective of >> whether the parents were actually following the Welsh patronymic >> system or > had >> adopted fixed English-style surnames. >> >> N.B. There is a 'Surname Index' and a 'Given Name Index' for each >> Welsh > county. >> >> Suppose, William, the son of John and Mary Thomas was baptised in >> 1812 (or earlier), then he would appear thus: >> >> In the Given Name Index (indexed under William) >> William (son of) John Thomas / Mary >> >> In the Surname Index (indexed under John - his father's given name) >> John, William (son of) John Thomas / Mary >> >> However, if baptised in 1813 (or later) he would appear thus: >> >> In the Given Name Index (indexed under William) >> William (son of) John Thomas / Mary >> >> In the Surname Index (indexed under Thomas - his father's surname) >> Thomas, William (son of) John Thomas / Mary >> >> In one instance we have Elizabeth, the daughter of Lewis BRIGSTOCK >> (originally an immigrant from England), who was baptised in 1716 and >> appears in the Welsh IGI Surname Index as Elizabeth LEWIS when the >> family clearly had a fixed English surname! >> >> The LDS indexers blindly followed the rule in the vast majority of >> cases but there are instances where some pre-1813 baptisms have been >> indexed under the 'correct' surname! >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- > ----------------------- >> >> There is also a briefer explanation of patronymics on the web-page >> below:- >> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~wyside01/helps/patronym.htm#example >> >> Other sources on Welsh surnames: >> >> 'The Surnames of Wales' by John & Sheila Rowlands >> Federation of Family History Societies (Publications) Ltd 1996 >> ISBN 1-86006-025-0 >> >> 'Welsh Surnames' by T. J. Morgan and Prys Morgan >> University of Wales Press 1985 >> ISBN 0-7083-0936-4 >> >> -- >> Regards >> Dick Jones Leigh-on-Sea Essex UK >> [email protected] >> >> ______________________________ > > > ==== WLS-CAERNARFONSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Cewch ddanfon negeseuon Cymraeg neu Saesneg i'r rhestr hon > This list covers a bilingual area, in which messages in both Welsh and > English are welcome > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >