I can check on this when I return home to California, if no one has given you the information before this time. I have it written in my book I carry to Wales. I can tell you there were many chapels in the area. I'm not sure how many churches, there was one on Gray Street, and then on Ogwen Terrace (high street), there is Glanogwen, I believe the main and largest church. Arlene Berta > Just wondering if anyone can help at all with a certain brick wall of > mine? > > Robert Thomas (a joiner) was marrried to Catherine Roberts on 15th May > 1840. > Robert was a widow and resident of Dwygyfylchi. He gives his father as > being > Thomas Williams, a joiner. (i believe this to be my first encounter with > patrynomics) On subsequent census returns he gives his birthplace as > llanllechid. > Robert was married three times in total. I do not know the name of his > first > wife but his third was Margaret ? of llansantffriad, Denbighshire. (he > outlived > her too!) > > i have looked at the baptisms register for llanllechid during arecent > visit > to Caernarfon R.O without success. Could the llnallechid reference > indicate the > llanllechid parish and if so, how many possible settlements would i be > looking at needing to examine registers for? > > If anyone can help here, or better still point my Robert out to me I would > be > enternally grateful. > > Yours hopefully......... > Glyn > > > ==== WLS-CAERNARFONSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru The National Library of Wales. Aberystwyth. > www.llgc.org.uk/ > [email protected] > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > >

The National Library of Wales might have them, as they have all records. You might also try the PRO which is online. Unfortunately, I am presently away from home and don't have access to the website address. Arlene Berta > Hi List, > I have just been to Wales:-)). > I spent five hours looking at documents in the Caernarfon records office. > The Llandudno Electoral Rolls seem to be missing for the years that I > want. > Has any body any idea where I will find them please.I am looking for 1919 > LLandudno E.R. > > Kind regards > Kathy ROBERTS,WILLIAMS Llandudno > > > ==== WLS-CAERNARFONSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Cewch ddanfon negeseuon Cymraeg neu Saesneg i'r rhestr hon > This list covers a bilingual area, in which messages in both Welsh and > English are welcome > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > >

Facinating- Thanks for the post, Keith! Does anyone else find the testimony of the Coroner a little strange? He can't recall if he went alone or with someone to the scene and is in possession of the weapon without knowing how he ended up with it?

Hi, Hopefully Alwyn will not mind me posting this, lengthy as it is? It is an account of a murder trial at Carnarvon, in August 1823. I have deliberately omitted the final paragraph which contains the verdict. Read the account, and lets have your own verdicts. Guilty, or Not Guilty? I will post the verdict tomorrow night.:-) Regards, Keith. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From The Times, 25th. August, 1823 CARNARVON GREAT SESSIONS MURDER - THE KING v. ELIZABETH MANNING Mr. COCKRELL having opened the indictment, Mr. WYATT, the Attorney-General, in a very feeling and impressive manner opened the case. Thomas Thomas, of Bangor-ferry, examined by Mr. COCKRELL. - I am a chaise-driver; I live near Bangor-ferry; I live in the cottage next door to the deceased Mr. Manning's house. I saw the deceased about half-past eight on Monday evening, 4th of August instant, before his death; Mrs. Manning was arm-in-arm with him; he had her pattens in his hand. The two houses are separated by a stone-wall, I think. It was difficult in the night when one is between sleep and awake to hear what passed in the other house. I think we could hear if we applied our ears to hear. I awoke in the morning of the 5th about two o'clock, and heard a noise in the deceased's house; it appeared to be moaning proceeding from deceased's house; it lasted ten minutes or less; I went to sleep directly after. I got up five minutes before six next morning to go to my work; I heard the door of the next house shut, and saw Mrs. Manning; she was going out of the house, and was proceeding towards Penychwyntan, on the ! road to Carnarvon. I did not see her come out; I could not. I then went to work. Emma Thomas - I am the wife of the last witness. I know Mr. Manning, he lived under the same roof with us, not in the same house, the two houses are divided by a partition. I do not know what the partition is, whether of stone or not. We lived in one, and they lived in the other. I was awoke on Tuesday morning, the 5th instant, my husband awoke me between two and three in the morning. I slept a little, and then awoke again, and I then heard the clock strike three; when my husband awoke me I heard a noise. The noise proceeded from the adjoining house, where Mr. and Mrs. Manning lived: the noise was like moaning and crying like a woman in distress; I thought she was in distress, I thought he had struck her; it lasted about ten minutes; we then slept. Examined by CHIEF JUSTICE - When I heard the crying, I believed it was Mrs. Manning's voice. When I heard the crying it was between two and three in the morning. I knew the deceased for about three months before his death. I always considered him out of his mind. I slept very sound after three o'clock. R. A. Poole, Esq. - I am son to the prisoner. I recollect her coming to me on Tuesday morning, the 5th inst., to my lodgings at Carnarvon. It was before I got up, I think about eight o'clock. She came straight to my bed-room, in much distress, and much agitated; by saying "she came straight," I mean she came hastily, without knocking; she had come several times before, but knocked, or sent up my servant first. I think the first thing she said was "I do not know on earth what to do, Manning is dead, he has cut his throat." I think before I got up she showed me her hand, which was cut on the fore-finger. I got up immediately. I saw my clerk go by, and sent him immediately for the coroner, and desired him to call at Gorphwysfa, that he might know where this had happened. I got a chaise, and took my mother to Gorphwysfa; I met my sisters at the door, and told them what had happened. I called for the gardener, who was the only man-servant about the house, to go with me to the hou! se of the deceased: he was not in the way. I then asked a maid-servant to go with me to Mr. Manning's house. We went there. I asked my mother on the road from Carnarvon to Gorphwysfa, for the key of the house; she felt her pocket, and gave it me. With the key I opened the door, and went into the house. I went upstairs, the servant followed. I saw the body of Mr. Manning, upon the bed, with his head towards the entrance from the stairs. The head of the bed was the other way. There was a sheet upon the body, up to his breast. I did not touch the body, or any thing in the room. There was a great deal of blood on the floor, and some of it was partly wiped. I should think it was wiped with a mop or wet cloth. The great mass of blood was only wiped. A number of spots of blood were untouched. I saw a razor shut, upon the drawers. The window was open. I touched nothing, and desired the servant not to touch any thing, and she did not. Robert Roberts, wheelwright - I knew Mr. Manning, and had often seen him. On Tuesday, the 5th of August inst., I went through the window into the room, where I heard that he had destroyed himself; it was about two o'clock in the afternoon. I went in first, and called another man, H. Hughes, blacksmith, to follow me. I saw the body in the room, on the bed, with the head towards the feet of the bed. When I went in, the bed was on my right hand. I called Hugh Hughes, and when he came we looked upon the body. It was covered with a sheet. We touched nothing, and went down stairs. I opened the door, and let several persons, who were by the door, in, and we all went up stairs, when we saw a razor upon the table, upon a cloth, upon the chest. The floor appeared bloody, and partly wiped or mopped; we continued about a minute, and left every thing as we found it. It was about two o'clock in the afternoon when we went there. Mr. Poole again examined by the CHIEF JUSTICE - I went there about ten o'clock in the morning. Robert Roberts in continuation - We remained in the house about two minutes, merely looked at the body, and left every thing as they were. I was at the house when the coroner was there the next day (Wednesday the 6th.); I saw the constable open a bundle. It was in the room where the deceased lay, near the top of the stairs, upon a stool, and not in the least concealed. Edward Carreg, Esq. - I am a coroner for Carnarvonshire. I was brought up a surgeon, but don't now practice. On Wednesday, the 5th of August, I went to the late Mr. Manning's house, about 12 o'clock. I think I went alone, or with another person, before the jury assembled. I saw the body upon the bed; and there was a sheet thrown over it. I did not examine the wounds, but desired the surgeons to do it. (Produces a razor.) I found this upon a table in the room. I do not know whether I took it, or the constable gave it me. By JUDGE KENRICK - I did not examine the body minutely, but looked cursorily over it. I do not know whether there was a pillow upon the bed or not. John Jonathan - I am constable of Bangor; I met Mrs. Manning on the road on Tuesday morning, the 5th instant, about six o'clock in the morning; she was walking towards Carnarvon; I met her near Tros Carrol, about half a mile from Bangor; she asked me if the mail has passed me? I said no, and she went on. I went to Mr. Manning's house on Wednesday, the next day, about 10 o'clock: I had summoned the Jury; I went to the bedroom of the deceased, and saw the body; the coroner desired me to search the room; I found a bundle of clothes upon a stool, at the top of the stairs; it was not at all concealed, and any body who went in might see it; it was covered with a blanket; had in it two sheets, two pillow-cases, a pillow, a chemise, a shirt, a man's and a woman's night cap, and a pair of white stockings; some of them were a good deal blooded; they were wet, some with blood, and some with water; I saw a razor in Dr. Carreg's hand; there I saw it first. I have got the clothes with me;! they are now in the same state as I found them, except being dried; there is a small cut upon the pillow-case (produces it and the pillow); the pillow-case is very thin, and it may be a tear; the pillow is not cut, but the shirt is; I am not certain whether it is a cut or a tear (produces it). Chief Justice RAINE - It evidently is torn. Mr. Thomas Roberts - I am a surgeon at Bangor, and attended to examine the body of Mr. Manning, about two or three o'clock on the 6th inst. I found three wounds, two on the throat, and one from the right ear along the lower jaw to the chin; the wounds appeared to be made with a sharp instrument. The larger wound was enough to cause death, it being from near the right ear to about three inches beyond the left; from my observations I think that the large one was not cut first - that it was likely to produce immediate death. Neither of the wounds intersected each other, but were three distinct wounds. It occurred to me at the time that the large wound began from the right to the left, because I could hardly think a man committing suicide would begin so far back as three inches behind the ear. If it was so cut, it must have been done with the left hand. If it was done by any other person, it might begin at the right. Cross-examined by MR. BLACKBURN - The larger wound in my opinion, produced death in about half a minute. It was impossible a man could moan for ten minutes after receiving such a wound. The two small wounds appeared to be done first. If the larger wound was done by any body else, I do not think the deceased could in the least struggle after it was done. I should think the deceased, if alarmed with the two first small wounds, would have been able to struggle and resist. I can't say whether his arm was particularly muscular. He was a man not likely to be vanquished by the prisoner, after receiving the first two wounds. By the CHIEF JUSTICE - Supposing a man desperately bent upon self-destruction, with a razor or any sharp instrument, could he make the dreadful wound; and might he do it with the left hand assisted with the right? - I am clearly of the opinion that he might do it with the left hand alone; there were three small wounds on the left hand, two on the back, and one on the little finger. Mr. Hugh Jones, and another surgeon who examined the body, gave evidence similar. The last witness said he had known the deceased for some time past, and always considered him as a person of insane mind. Mr. ATTORNEY-GENERAL - I have closed the case for the Crown. Mr. PALMER, for the prisoner - Does your Lordship think that there has been sufficient evidence to put the prisoner upon her defence? CHIEF JUSTICE - What do you say, Mr. Attorney? ATTORNEY-GENERAL - My Lord, I am in this case only public prosecutor, performing a painful duty, and I can have no other wish than that justice may be done; I must therefore leave the case in your Lordship's hands. Mr. PALMER - My Lord, I, on the part of the prisoner, have no desire whatever to stop this case short, and on her part I court the closest investigation. CHIEF JUSTICE to the Attorney-General - From your opening, Mr. Attorney, which does you infinite honour (and which, if I shall have occasion to address the jury, I shall endeavour to repeat word for word), I expected the case would end as it has. Mr. PALMER (addressing himself to the jury.) - Gentlemen, are you or are you not fully satisfied of the prisoner's innocence, or do you wish to hear evidence on her behalf? If you are not satisfied, I, on the part of the prisoner, am prepared to enter into the fullest defence. (....................................Verdict to be announced....................................)

Llanddaniel Fab is between Gaerwen and Brynsiencyn, and is therefore not very far from Beaumaris. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gaye Dunn" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [CAE] 1841 census Bangor > Hi Elvery > > Is Llanddaniel Fab anywhere near Beaumaris, Anglesey? > I have Roberts in Beaumaris, a Thomas Roberts son of Goodman Roberts born > 1824, he had a brother Edward born 1821 as well and others. > I have looked on a map and can't see Llanddaniel? > > Cheers > Gaye > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Elvery Chambers" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:57 AM > Subject: [CAE] 1841 census Bangor > > > > If anyone has access to the above census please could you check for a > Robert ROBERTS born about 1825 at Llanddaniel Fab, Anglesey or any ROBERTS > born in the same place. > > Thanks > > Elvery Chambers > > Perth, Western Australia > > > > > > ==== WLS-CAERNARFONSHIRE Mailing List ==== > > Cewch ddanfon negeseuon Cymraeg neu Saesneg i'r rhestr hon > > This list covers a bilingual area, in which messages in both Welsh and > English are welcome > > > > ============================== > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > ==== WLS-CAERNARFONSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Cewch ddanfon negeseuon Cymraeg neu Saesneg i'r rhestr hon > This list covers a bilingual area, in which messages in both Welsh and English are welcome > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

Hi List, I have just been to Wales:-)). I spent five hours looking at documents in the Caernarfon records office. The Llandudno Electoral Rolls seem to be missing for the years that I want. Has any body any idea where I will find them please.I am looking for 1919 LLandudno E.R. Kind regards Kathy ROBERTS,WILLIAMS Llandudno

Just wondering if anyone can help at all with a certain brick wall of mine? Robert Thomas (a joiner) was marrried to Catherine Roberts on 15th May 1840. Robert was a widow and resident of Dwygyfylchi. He gives his father as being Thomas Williams, a joiner. (i believe this to be my first encounter with patrynomics) On subsequent census returns he gives his birthplace as llanllechid. Robert was married three times in total. I do not know the name of his first wife but his third was Margaret ? of llansantffriad, Denbighshire. (he outlived her too!) i have looked at the baptisms register for llanllechid during arecent visit to Caernarfon R.O without success. Could the llnallechid reference indicate the llanllechid parish and if so, how many possible settlements would i be looking at needing to examine registers for? If anyone can help here, or better still point my Robert out to me I would be enternally grateful. Yours hopefully......... Glyn

Hi, I came across this earlier and thought that it might be of interest to someone. From The Times, 21st. May, 1878 CHARGE OF MURDER - At Carnarvon, on Saturday, Catherine Jones, the wife of a farmer living at Llwynycoed, Penygroes, was charged before the county bench with the murder of her daughter Sarah, a child 18 months old. Since the birth of the child the prisoner has suffered from puerperal mania and on more than one occasion has attempted the child's life. On Thursday, the 9th. inst., the father left the two together in the kitchen, and on his return in a few minutes he found the child dead and bleeding from the nostrils and ears. The mother at first accounted for death by saying that the child had fallen from a chair; but she subsequently told one of the servants that she had suffocated it by holding her hand over its mouth, and asked her whether she was likely to be hanged for what she had done. She was committed for trial at the assizes. The coroner's jury had found that she committed the act while temporarily insane. Regards, Keith.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say not guilty. Several testified he was "insane." The medical expert hinted that it would be difficult for a man to kill himself in such a manner, but didn't say it was impossible. Also, the testimony that it would be difficult to successfully overcome such a strong man was fairly convincing, particularly with the accused being a woman. But, if I were on the jury, I'd want to hear Mrs. Manning testify. I certainly couldn't make a decision given what was presented. Anyway....thanks for sharing. It was interesting. Looking forward to hearing the verdict. Tammy Keith Morris <[email protected]> wrote: Hi, Hopefully Alwyn will not mind me posting this, lengthy as it is? It is an account of a murder trial at Carnarvon, in August 1823. I have deliberately omitted the final paragraph which contains the verdict. Read the account, and lets have your own verdicts. Guilty, or Not Guilty? I will post the verdict tomorrow night.:-) Regards, Keith. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From The Times, 25th. August, 1823 CARNARVON GREAT SESSIONS MURDER - THE KING v. ELIZABETH MANNING Mr. COCKRELL having opened the indictment, Mr. WYATT, the Attorney-General, in a very feeling and impressive manner opened the case. Thomas Thomas, of Bangor-ferry, examined by Mr. COCKRELL. - I am a chaise-driver; I live near Bangor-ferry; I live in the cottage next door to the deceased Mr. Manning's house. I saw the deceased about half-past eight on Monday evening, 4th of August instant, before his death; Mrs. Manning was arm-in-arm with him; he had her pattens in his hand. The two houses are separated by a stone-wall, I think. It was difficult in the night when one is between sleep and awake to hear what passed in the other house. I think we could hear if we applied our ears to hear. I awoke in the morning of the 5th about two o'clock, and heard a noise in the deceased's house; it appeared to be moaning proceeding from deceased's house; it lasted ten minutes or less; I went to sleep directly after. I got up five minutes before six next morning to go to my work; I heard the door of the next house shut, and saw Mrs. Manning; she was going out of the house, and was proceeding towards Penychwyntan, on the ! road to Carnarvon. I did not see her come out; I could not. I then went to work. Emma Thomas - I am the wife of the last witness. I know Mr. Manning, he lived under the same roof with us, not in the same house, the two houses are divided by a partition. I do not know what the partition is, whether of stone or not. We lived in one, and they lived in the other. I was awoke on Tuesday morning, the 5th instant, my husband awoke me between two and three in the morning. I slept a little, and then awoke again, and I then heard the clock strike three; when my husband awoke me I heard a noise. The noise proceeded from the adjoining house, where Mr. and Mrs. Manning lived: the noise was like moaning and crying like a woman in distress; I thought she was in distress, I thought he had struck her; it lasted about ten minutes; we then slept. Examined by CHIEF JUSTICE - When I heard the crying, I believed it was Mrs. Manning's voice. When I heard the crying it was between two and three in the morning. I knew the deceased for about three months before his death. I always considered him out of his mind. I slept very sound after three o'clock. R. A. Poole, Esq. - I am son to the prisoner. I recollect her coming to me on Tuesday morning, the 5th inst., to my lodgings at Carnarvon. It was before I got up, I think about eight o'clock. She came straight to my bed-room, in much distress, and much agitated; by saying "she came straight," I mean she came hastily, without knocking; she had come several times before, but knocked, or sent up my servant first. I think the first thing she said was "I do not know on earth what to do, Manning is dead, he has cut his throat." I think before I got up she showed me her hand, which was cut on the fore-finger. I got up immediately. I saw my clerk go by, and sent him immediately for the coroner, and desired him to call at Gorphwysfa, that he might know where this had happened. I got a chaise, and took my mother to Gorphwysfa; I met my sisters at the door, and told them what had happened. I called for the gardener, who was the only man-servant about the house, to go with me to the hou! se of the deceased: he was not in the way. I then asked a maid-servant to go with me to Mr. Manning's house. We went there. I asked my mother on the road from Carnarvon to Gorphwysfa, for the key of the house; she felt her pocket, and gave it me. With the key I opened the door, and went into the house. I went upstairs, the servant followed. I saw the body of Mr. Manning, upon the bed, with his head towards the entrance from the stairs. The head of the bed was the other way. There was a sheet upon the body, up to his breast. I did not touch the body, or any thing in the room. There was a great deal of blood on the floor, and some of it was partly wiped. I should think it was wiped with a mop or wet cloth. The great mass of blood was only wiped. A number of spots of blood were untouched. I saw a razor shut, upon the drawers. The window was open. I touched nothing, and desired the servant not to touch any thing, and she did not. Robert Roberts, wheelwright - I knew Mr. Manning, and had often seen him. On Tuesday, the 5th of August inst., I went through the window into the room, where I heard that he had destroyed himself; it was about two o'clock in the afternoon. I went in first, and called another man, H. Hughes, blacksmith, to follow me. I saw the body in the room, on the bed, with the head towards the feet of the bed. When I went in, the bed was on my right hand. I called Hugh Hughes, and when he came we looked upon the body. It was covered with a sheet. We touched nothing, and went down stairs. I opened the door, and let several persons, who were by the door, in, and we all went up stairs, when we saw a razor upon the table, upon a cloth, upon the chest. The floor appeared bloody, and partly wiped or mopped; we continued about a minute, and left every thing as we found it. It was about two o'clock in the afternoon when we went there. Mr. Poole again examined by the CHIEF JUSTICE - I went there about ten o'clock in the morning. Robert Roberts in continuation - We remained in the house about two minutes, merely looked at the body, and left every thing as they were. I was at the house when the coroner was there the next day (Wednesday the 6th.); I saw the constable open a bundle. It was in the room where the deceased lay, near the top of the stairs, upon a stool, and not in the least concealed. Edward Carreg, Esq. - I am a coroner for Carnarvonshire. I was brought up a surgeon, but don't now practice. On Wednesday, the 5th of August, I went to the late Mr. Manning's house, about 12 o'clock. I think I went alone, or with another person, before the jury assembled. I saw the body upon the bed; and there was a sheet thrown over it. I did not examine the wounds, but desired the surgeons to do it. (Produces a razor.) I found this upon a table in the room. I do not know whether I took it, or the constable gave it me. By JUDGE KENRICK - I did not examine the body minutely, but looked cursorily over it. I do not know whether there was a pillow upon the bed or not. John Jonathan - I am constable of Bangor; I met Mrs. Manning on the road on Tuesday morning, the 5th instant, about six o'clock in the morning; she was walking towards Carnarvon; I met her near Tros Carrol, about half a mile from Bangor; she asked me if the mail has passed me? I said no, and she went on. I went to Mr. Manning's house on Wednesday, the next day, about 10 o'clock: I had summoned the Jury; I went to the bedroom of the deceased, and saw the body; the coroner desired me to search the room; I found a bundle of clothes upon a stool, at the top of the stairs; it was not at all concealed, and any body who went in might see it; it was covered with a blanket; had in it two sheets, two pillow-cases, a pillow, a chemise, a shirt, a man's and a woman's night cap, and a pair of white stockings; some of them were a good deal blooded; they were wet, some with blood, and some with water; I saw a razor in Dr. Carreg's hand; there I saw it first. I have got the clothes with me;! they are now in the same state as I found them, except being dried; there is a small cut upon the pillow-case (produces it and the pillow); the pillow-case is very thin, and it may be a tear; the pillow is not cut, but the shirt is; I am not certain whether it is a cut or a tear (produces it). Chief Justice RAINE - It evidently is torn. Mr. Thomas Roberts - I am a surgeon at Bangor, and attended to examine the body of Mr. Manning, about two or three o'clock on the 6th inst. I found three wounds, two on the throat, and one from the right ear along the lower jaw to the chin; the wounds appeared to be made with a sharp instrument. The larger wound was enough to cause death, it being from near the right ear to about three inches beyond the left; from my observations I think that the large one was not cut first - that it was likely to produce immediate death. Neither of the wounds intersected each other, but were three distinct wounds. It occurred to me at the time that the large wound began from the right to the left, because I could hardly think a man committing suicide would begin so far back as three inches behind the ear. If it was so cut, it must have been done with the left hand. If it was done by any other person, it might begin at the right. Cross-examined by MR. BLACKBURN - The larger wound in my opinion, produced death in about half a minute. It was impossible a man could moan for ten minutes after receiving such a wound. The two small wounds appeared to be done first. If the larger wound was done by any body else, I do not think the deceased could in the least struggle after it was done. I should think the deceased, if alarmed with the two first small wounds, would have been able to struggle and resist. I can't say whether his arm was particularly muscular. He was a man not likely to be vanquished by the prisoner, after receiving the first two wounds. By the CHIEF JUSTICE - Supposing a man desperately bent upon self-destruction, with a razor or any sharp instrument, could he make the dreadful wound; and might he do it with the left hand assisted with the right? - I am clearly of the opinion that he might do it with the left hand alone; there were three small wounds on the left hand, two on the back, and one on the little finger. Mr. Hugh Jones, and another surgeon who examined the body, gave evidence similar. The last witness said he had known the deceased for some time past, and always considered him as a person of insane mind. Mr. ATTORNEY-GENERAL - I have closed the case for the Crown. Mr. PALMER, for the prisoner - Does your Lordship think that there has been sufficient evidence to put the prisoner upon her defence? CHIEF JUSTICE - What do you say, Mr. Attorney? ATTORNEY-GENERAL - My Lord, I am in this case only public prosecutor, performing a painful duty, and I can have no other wish than that justice may be done; I must therefore leave the case in your Lordship's hands. Mr. PALMER - My Lord, I, on the part of the prisoner, have no desire whatever to stop this case short, and on her part I court the closest investigation. CHIEF JUSTICE to the Attorney-General - From your opening, Mr. Attorney, which does you infinite honour (and which, if I shall have occasion to address the jury, I shall endeavour to repeat word for word), I expected the case would end as it has. Mr. PALMER (addressing himself to the jury.) - Gentlemen, are you or are you not fully satisfied of the prisoner's innocence, or do you wish to hear evidence on her behalf? If you are not satisfied, I, on the part of the prisoner, am prepared to enter into the fullest defence. (....................................Verdict to be announced....................................) ==== WLS-CAERNARFONSHIRE Mailing List ==== Gwynedd Family History Society 36 Y Wern Y Felinheli, Gwynedd LL56 4TXX [email protected] or [email protected] ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs

In those days I am guessing they had no sympathy for post partum depression of women...my guess is the verdict was guilty and she was hanged. SUSAN

Hi Elvery Is Llanddaniel Fab anywhere near Beaumaris, Anglesey? I have Roberts in Beaumaris, a Thomas Roberts son of Goodman Roberts born 1824, he had a brother Edward born 1821 as well and others. I have looked on a map and can't see Llanddaniel? Cheers Gaye ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elvery Chambers" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:57 AM Subject: [CAE] 1841 census Bangor > If anyone has access to the above census please could you check for a Robert ROBERTS born about 1825 at Llanddaniel Fab, Anglesey or any ROBERTS born in the same place. > Thanks > Elvery Chambers > Perth, Western Australia > > > ==== WLS-CAERNARFONSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Cewch ddanfon negeseuon Cymraeg neu Saesneg i'r rhestr hon > This list covers a bilingual area, in which messages in both Welsh and English are welcome > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 >

Hi, Slater's Directory for 1859 has been completed and is now available at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~wlsccaer/ Regards, Keith.

If anyone has access to the above census please could you check for a Robert ROBERTS born about 1825 at Llanddaniel Fab, Anglesey or any ROBERTS born in the same place. Thanks Elvery Chambers Perth, Western Australia

David You are a fund of information! I had no idea the family had two bakeries - no wonder they appeared to be doing well. Would it be possible for you to scan the guidebook entry for me? The Holyhead Road Branch was the one my grandfather, Emyr, ran and the Corner House Cafe was above it. Undoubtedly they made my mother's "bride cake" on their own premises! I was also interested in Lewis HUMPHREYS showing his dog as I also show and breed gundogs (Pointers)! If he exhibited in 1885 then that starts to narrow down the possible time of murder/death. I have checked FBMD without success (realise its not infallible) so will try elsewhere. Thanks again. Lizzie Brisbane, Australia > In a Guidebook to Bangor c.1908, is an advert; > > "J. HUMPHREYS, Tea, Coffee, Grocery & Provision Merchant (Established 1879), > The Stores, Upper Bangor. > Branches: 32 Holyhead Road (Bread & Confectionery), and Model Bakery, Market > Place [High Street] Bangor. > Bride Cakes made to order from 5/- and upwards. " > > In a book I have recording the Bangor Dog, Poultry, & Horticultural Show, > August 1885, I see that > Lewis HUMPHREYS, High Street, showed his 3yr old spaniel, 'Jack'. Now I > wonder if this was your Lewis H. - looking after the Model Bakery? If you > think he was murdered before 1891, then it should be an easy matter to order > his Death Certificate in that 5 yr period. I found a murder in my father's > family in 1884 and there was much info in the local papers. > > Regards, David

Dear list, To anyone who hasn't made it to Keith Morris's website yet, this snippet which I have taken out proved it for me! I am sure that our ancestors would have been giggling about this one in their chapels, in the pub (for those who went) and about their daily business... "From the Carnarvon & Denbigh Herald: September 22nd. 1855. William Williams, a sailor, appeared to a charge of being on the roof of an outhouse belonging to the Crown and Anchor Public-house, for an unlawful purpose, between 2 and 3 on Sunday morning. In his defence, he called the servant girl to prove that he was going to her by appointment." Ian London SW9 _________________________________________________________________ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess

Lizzie I'm not familiar with the name of T. Osborne Williams, architect. Don't bother scanning the plans, but I agree these old plans are very attractive. George BIRT rings a bell, but I cannot remember where I've seen the name. In a Guidebook to Bangor c.1908, is an advert; "J. HUMPHREYS, Tea, Coffee, Grocery & Provision Merchant (Established 1879), The Stores, Upper Bangor. Branches: 32 Holyhead Road (Bread & Confectionery), and Model Bakery, Market Place [High Street] Bangor. Bride Cakes made to order from 5/- and upwards. " In a book I have recording the Bangor Dog, Poultry, & Horticultural Show, August 1885, I see that Lewis HUMPHREYS, High Street, showed his 3yr old spaniel, 'Jack'. Now I wonder if this was your Lewis H. - looking after the Model Bakery? If you think he was murdered before 1891, then it should be an easy matter to order his Death Certificate in that 5 yr period. I found a murder in my father's family in 1884 and there was much info in the local papers. Regards, David -----Original Message----- From: aspenlea [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 25 April 2004 01:21 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CAE] Bangor house - The Lawn David How wonderful to find someone interested in local architecture. I find the history of houses absolutely fascinating and would love to build up a picture of the inhabitants of each house that has been associated with my family. Yes, the architectural plans for "Proposed detached house: College Road & Meirion Road: for George BIRT Esquire", aka The Lawn, were drawn up in 1915 by a local architect: L. Osborne WILLIAMS, Bangor. Although the plans are somewhat large I could try to scan them if you are interested. George BIRT's dau, Gladys, married John HUMPHREYS' son, Richard Emyr and the house was a wedding gift to the happy couple - business must have done well! In his diary, George BIRT has a couple entries about the purchase of the land: "Mon 19 April 1915 Emyr and self went to WILLIAMS' office and put down particulars for specifications and in the afternoon went to see the plot with ROWLANDS, Emyr, self and WILLIAMS." "Fri 23 April 1915 Mr HUMPHREYS and self went to FRENCH this morning and ultimately arranged to take plot 99 at 100 (pounds), to write him to get it not later than Wednesday which I promised to do. I had a big job to get him down to 100 (pounds). It is about 2000 yds." I also have a photograph of John HUMPHREYS grocer's shop in Upper Bangor (taken by Wickens) and I suspect it is at 31 Holyhead Road (as indicated in Slater's Directory) because the number on the next door house is 29. It was also called "Cartrefle". Regarding my comment about "corners", I forgot to say that my grandfather's bakery and cafe, The Corner House Cafe, was also on a corner (Holyhead and College Road I think)! I seem to remember a bank and post office nearby. Regards Lizzie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mail" <[email protected]> To: "aspenlea" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:01 AM Subject: RE: [CAE] Bangor house > Lizzie, > > I'm pleased I was able to locate Bryn Gwyn. > > I think The Lawns is still standing, but it may now be part of the new BBC > Cymru studios; I will check next time I'm passing. Who was the architect - > someone local? I have a great interest in local architectural history. > > Regards, David > > ==== WLS-CAERNARFONSHIRE Mailing List ==== Cewch ddanfon negeseuon Cymraeg neu Saesneg i'r rhestr hon This list covers a bilingual area, in which messages in both Welsh and English are welcome ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Hi, A few more reports from the Carnarvon & Denbigh Herald have been added to "Bits 'n' Pieces", which can be found in the Miscellaneous Section. They include: an omnibus accident, more highway robberies, a portrait exhibition at High Street, and an attempted escape from Carnarvon Gaol. There is also one new image added to the Photographers' Advertising Cards. (Thanks Jan). These can be found at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~wlsccaer/ Regards, Keith.

David History of Llys Menai, Menai Avenue, Bangor as far as I can gather: The house was originally built for John HUGHES in 1891 and there is a stone plaque over the front door with "JH 1891" chiselled into it. John HUGHES was a part owner of a ship and is mentioned in a list of shipowners/shareholders in the book "Ventures in Sail". Everything was of absolutely top quality and craftsmanship and no expense spared. In the 1901 census John HUGHES was a retired commercial traveller (aged 64) living with his wife, Mary Jane (46) and two servants at Llys Menai. When my grandparents (Emyr and Gladys HUMPHREYS) got engaged around 1913 they were invited to Llys Menai by Mr and Mrs HUGHES for tea. My grandparents remember sitting on the green velvet covered inglenook seats in the drawing room (which also has lovely stained glass windows by the fireplace) little realising that in 1937 they would be the next owners of the house. Emyr and Gladys HUMPHREYS bought the house for 2000 (pounds) plus 700 (pounds) for the freehold. My grandfather remarked that even in 1937 the seats were still covered with the same velvet and in pristine condition and I have a lovely photograph, some years later, of my grandparents sitting on those seats by the fireplace. Sadly the house was sold in 1970 to pay death duties. Lizzie Brisbane, Australia > I have a great interest in local architectural history. > > Regards, David

David How wonderful to find someone interested in local architecture. I find the history of houses absolutely fascinating and would love to build up a picture of the inhabitants of each house that has been associated with my family. Yes, the architectural plans for "Proposed detached house: College Road & Meirion Road: for George BIRT Esquire", aka The Lawn, were drawn up in 1915 by a local architect: L. Osborne WILLIAMS, Bangor. Although the plans are somewhat large I could try to scan them if you are interested. George BIRT's dau, Gladys, married John HUMPHREYS' son, Richard Emyr and the house was a wedding gift to the happy couple - business must have done well! In his diary, George BIRT has a couple entries about the purchase of the land: "Mon 19 April 1915 Emyr and self went to WILLIAMS' office and put down particulars for specifications and in the afternoon went to see the plot with ROWLANDS, Emyr, self and WILLIAMS." "Fri 23 April 1915 Mr HUMPHREYS and self went to FRENCH this morning and ultimately arranged to take plot 99 at 100 (pounds), to write him to get it not later than Wednesday which I promised to do. I had a big job to get him down to 100 (pounds). It is about 2000 yds." I also have a photograph of John HUMPHREYS grocer's shop in Upper Bangor (taken by Wickens) and I suspect it is at 31 Holyhead Road (as indicated in Slater's Directory) because the number on the next door house is 29. It was also called "Cartrefle". Regarding my comment about "corners", I forgot to say that my grandfather's bakery and cafe, The Corner House Cafe, was also on a corner (Holyhead and College Road I think)! I seem to remember a bank and post office nearby. Regards Lizzie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mail" <[email protected]> To: "aspenlea" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:01 AM Subject: RE: [CAE] Bangor house > Lizzie, > > I'm pleased I was able to locate Bryn Gwyn. > > I think The Lawns is still standing, but it may now be part of the new BBC > Cymru studios; I will check next time I'm passing. Who was the architect - > someone local? I have a great interest in local architectural history. > > Regards, David > >

Thank you all so much for the information about my family's houses in Bangor and for troubling to check the 1851 census (I did too but hadn't thought about Bangor being "rural" at that period) and Slaters Directory. Amongst my recently acquired "family history treasures" are the original 1915 architect's plans (beautifully drawn and watercoloured) for The Lawns. The house is on the corner of Meirion and College Roads, Bangor. It seems my grandparents had a penchant for houses on corners as Bryn Gwyn, The Lawns and Llys Menai are all corner blocks! David, are you able to confirm that The Lawns is also still standing please? Thanks again. Lizzie Brisbane, Australia FHS: Mont #965, Gwynedd #2991 outgoing mail scanned by PC-cillin 2004