So this John Winn who has been shown in the past to be married to Elizabeth Minor you feel was not married to her. and where others have said he was the child of a Thomas Winn you don't believe that is so also? Cuz B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > Hi Becky, > I really have no idea where this John Winn fits in. Certainly no idea of > his ancestry and I don't even see any evidence sufficient to identify a > family. The children assigned to him in the various and different > assortments in the published genealogies were, I think, attempts to > create a family that, in fact, never existed, not to deceive anyone but > just because some folks thought there must have been such a family. > > Sorry I can't be any more help than that. > > Myles Johnson > > ********************************************************* > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > Dear Myles, > > To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe John Winn's > > line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations before him > > an a couple after him? > > Cuz Becky > > ttg-inc@attbi.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM > > Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > Hi All, > > I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an > > addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. > > > > Hi All, > > The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & the > > LVA on this man. > > > > John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. > > > > My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for John > > Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. The > > records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of > > Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an excellent > > research library, just across from the CH. This county has a continuous > > series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. > > > > 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, > > Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, Cavaliers & > > Pioneers, v.1:366]. > > > > >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: > > 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & Eliz. > > Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. > > 1:78]. > > > > 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to Mr. > > Henry Brett. > > [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. > > > > 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by the > > Grand Jury. > > [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some > > propriety]. > > [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. > > > > That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and doubtless > > more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. > > > > These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the gap > > to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. The > > almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on > > juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small farmer. > > > > There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign > > (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say he > > died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not > > unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years > > before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for Cople > > parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not > > seen. > > > > But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, the > > youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a prominent > > and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official > > (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement > > with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] was > > written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names four > > children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next adjacent > > to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married again > > right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care for > > and no married child to live with. > > > > Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county records > > until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that John > > & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the fourth, > > was born in the 1680's. > > > > Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him to > > have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a > > total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the idea. > > > > Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" who > > traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged > > marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states "Thus > > far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is believed > > to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth > > Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, p.1]. > > Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got much > > of the information about this marriage and its descendants from Dennis > > R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the > > reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. > > > > The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of > > children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is > > given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the Winn > > Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account with > > Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be found. > > Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So the > > circle is complete. > > > > I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. > > > > Myles Johnson > >

Hi Becky, This John Winn has never been "shown" to be married to Eliz. Minor -- only alleged to be so. As to his father: Who knows? Which Thomas? So far, there just is no evidence to link him anywhere. Myles Johnson ********************************************************** The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > So this John Winn who has been shown in the past to be married to Elizabeth > Minor you feel was not married to her. and where others have said he was the > child of a Thomas Winn you don't believe that is so also? > Cuz B > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:15 PM > Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > Hi Becky, > > I really have no idea where this John Winn fits in. Certainly no idea of > > his ancestry and I don't even see any evidence sufficient to identify a > > family. The children assigned to him in the various and different > > assortments in the published genealogies were, I think, attempts to > > create a family that, in fact, never existed, not to deceive anyone but > > just because some folks thought there must have been such a family. > > > > Sorry I can't be any more help than that. > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > ********************************************************* > > > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > > > Dear Myles, > > > To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe John > Winn's > > > line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations before > him > > > an a couple after him? > > > Cuz Becky > > > ttg-inc@attbi.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM > > > Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > > Hi All, > > > I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an > > > addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. > > > > > > Hi All, > > > The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & the > > > LVA on this man. > > > > > > John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. > > > > > > My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for John > > > Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. The > > > records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of > > > Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an excellent > > > research library, just across from the CH. This county has a continuous > > > series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. > > > > > > 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, > > > Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, Cavaliers & > > > Pioneers, v.1:366]. > > > > > > >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: > > > 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & Eliz. > > > Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. > > > 1:78]. > > > > > > 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to Mr. > > > Henry Brett. > > > [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. > > > > > > 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by the > > > Grand Jury. > > > [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some > > > propriety]. > > > [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. > > > > > > That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and doubtless > > > more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. > > > > > > These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the gap > > > to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. The > > > almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on > > > juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small farmer. > > > > > > There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign > > > (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say he > > > died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not > > > unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years > > > before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for Cople > > > parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not > > > seen. > > > > > > But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, the > > > youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a prominent > > > and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official > > > (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement > > > with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] was > > > written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names four > > > children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next adjacent > > > to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married again > > > right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care for > > > and no married child to live with. > > > > > > Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county records > > > until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that John > > > & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the fourth, > > > was born in the 1680's. > > > > > > Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him to > > > have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a > > > total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the idea. > > > > > > Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" who > > > traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged > > > marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states "Thus > > > far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is believed > > > to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth > > > Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, p.1]. > > > Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got much > > > of the information about this marriage and its descendants from Dennis > > > R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the > > > reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. > > > > > > The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of > > > children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is > > > given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the Winn > > > Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account with > > > Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be found. > > > Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So the > > > circle is complete. > > > > > > I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > >

Ok Myles, I have no problem with "alleged", your correct shown is to close to proven. Do you remember our discussion with Velma about this line. That is where it was talked about that his father was thought to be Thomas Winn who married Dorothy Hines. Becky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > Hi Becky, > This John Winn has never been "shown" to be married to Eliz. Minor -- > only alleged to be so. > As to his father: Who knows? Which Thomas? So far, there just is no > evidence to link him anywhere. > > Myles Johnson > > ********************************************************** > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > So this John Winn who has been shown in the past to be married to Elizabeth > > Minor you feel was not married to her. and where others have said he was the > > child of a Thomas Winn you don't believe that is so also? > > Cuz B > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:15 PM > > Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > Hi Becky, > > > I really have no idea where this John Winn fits in. Certainly no idea of > > > his ancestry and I don't even see any evidence sufficient to identify a > > > family. The children assigned to him in the various and different > > > assortments in the published genealogies were, I think, attempts to > > > create a family that, in fact, never existed, not to deceive anyone but > > > just because some folks thought there must have been such a family. > > > > > > Sorry I can't be any more help than that. > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > > > ********************************************************* > > > > > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Myles, > > > > To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe John > > Winn's > > > > line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations before > > him > > > > an a couple after him? > > > > Cuz Becky > > > > ttg-inc@attbi.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM > > > > Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an > > > > addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & the > > > > LVA on this man. > > > > > > > > John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. > > > > > > > > My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for John > > > > Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. The > > > > records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of > > > > Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an excellent > > > > research library, just across from the CH. This county has a continuous > > > > series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. > > > > > > > > 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, > > > > Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, Cavaliers & > > > > Pioneers, v.1:366]. > > > > > > > > >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: > > > > 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & Eliz. > > > > Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. > > > > 1:78]. > > > > > > > > 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to Mr. > > > > Henry Brett. > > > > [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. > > > > > > > > 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by the > > > > Grand Jury. > > > > [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some > > > > propriety]. > > > > [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. > > > > > > > > That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and doubtless > > > > more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. > > > > > > > > These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the gap > > > > to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. The > > > > almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on > > > > juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small farmer. > > > > > > > > There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign > > > > (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say he > > > > died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not > > > > unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years > > > > before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for Cople > > > > parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not > > > > seen. > > > > > > > > But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, the > > > > youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a prominent > > > > and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official > > > > (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement > > > > with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] was > > > > written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names four > > > > children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next adjacent > > > > to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married again > > > > right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care for > > > > and no married child to live with. > > > > > > > > Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county records > > > > until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that John > > > > & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the fourth, > > > > was born in the 1680's. > > > > > > > > Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him to > > > > have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a > > > > total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the idea. > > > > > > > > Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" who > > > > traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged > > > > marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states "Thus > > > > far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is believed > > > > to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth > > > > Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, p.1]. > > > > Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got much > > > > of the information about this marriage and its descendants from Dennis > > > > R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the > > > > reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. > > > > > > > > The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of > > > > children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is > > > > given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the Winn > > > > Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account with > > > > Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be found. > > > > Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So the > > > > circle is complete. > > > > > > > > I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. > > > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > > > >

Hi Becky, The fact is that the this marriage was was never proved. The burden of proof is on the assertion. Until a proposed event is proved or reasonably argued for, it should not be used, except as speculation -- which is where this Winn-Minor marriage started. Later, as is always the case, it got taken as fact, not a guess, and now has a life of its own which well-nigh inextinguishable -- a prime example of the dangers of publishing unproven "facts". Re Wynne-Hines: I think one of the versions floating around uses this but it is all wrong. The Wynne-Hines marriage actually comes from my own family's info -- gen. info sent to Edmund J. Cleveland by my gr-gr-GM, M.E.C. Wynne and publ. by him in "The Cleveland Genealogy" (1899). But it was a John Wynne who she said m. "Dorothea Vines or Hinds". This John Wynne was "from Sir Thomas Wynne descended" --- not clearly a son, poss. grandson. Since this is my direct line, I have been seeking some doc. proof of this for some 20 years, without success. As far as I can tell, this 'Sir Thomas - John m. Hinds/Vines' version was entered into Virkus' Compendium of unproven gens., was passed on to W.W. Smith and Mame E. Wood, who grafted it onto their speculations, and thence to an unknown number of family trees. My current theory -- no more than that -- is that my Wynne immigrant was Thomas Wynne, son of a Thomas Wynne, a Turkey merchant from Shrewsbury. His family is the one given by Anne Fremantle in "The Wynne Diaries", but we know nothing about who or how many chn. this immigrant Thomas may have had. He could not have arr. Va. before 1640, nor do we know whom he marr. One has to skip a gen. before coming to my 1st proven Wynne, John Wynne of York Co. (1705?-1772). I don't know of any other subscriber to this Winn-L list who desc. from this John Wynne of York Co.. If there is, please let me know. Myles Johnson ***************************************************************** The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > Ok Myles, > I have no problem with "alleged", your correct shown is to close to proven. > Do you remember our discussion with Velma about this line. That is where it > was talked about that his father was thought to be Thomas Winn who married > Dorothy Hines. > Becky > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:05 PM > Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > Hi Becky, > > This John Winn has never been "shown" to be married to Eliz. Minor -- > > only alleged to be so. > > As to his father: Who knows? Which Thomas? So far, there just is no > > evidence to link him anywhere. > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > ********************************************************** > > > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > > > So this John Winn who has been shown in the past to be married to > Elizabeth > > > Minor you feel was not married to her. and where others have said he was > the > > > child of a Thomas Winn you don't believe that is so also? > > > Cuz B > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:15 PM > > > Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > > > Hi Becky, > > > > I really have no idea where this John Winn fits in. Certainly no idea > of > > > > his ancestry and I don't even see any evidence sufficient to identify > a > > > > family. The children assigned to him in the various and different > > > > assortments in the published genealogies were, I think, attempts to > > > > create a family that, in fact, never existed, not to deceive anyone > but > > > > just because some folks thought there must have been such a family. > > > > > > > > Sorry I can't be any more help than that. > > > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > > > > > ********************************************************* > > > > > > > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Myles, > > > > > To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe > John > > > Winn's > > > > > line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations > before > > > him > > > > > an a couple after him? > > > > > Cuz Becky > > > > > ttg-inc@attbi.com > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > > > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM > > > > > Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an > > > > > addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & > the > > > > > LVA on this man. > > > > > > > > > > John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. > > > > > > > > > > My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for > John > > > > > Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. > The > > > > > records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of > > > > > Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an > excellent > > > > > research library, just across from the CH. This county has a > continuous > > > > > series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. > > > > > > > > > > 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, > > > > > Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, > Cavaliers & > > > > > Pioneers, v.1:366]. > > > > > > > > > > >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: > > > > > 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & > Eliz. > > > > > Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. > > > > > 1:78]. > > > > > > > > > > 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to > Mr. > > > > > Henry Brett. > > > > > [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. > > > > > > > > > > 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by > the > > > > > Grand Jury. > > > > > [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some > > > > > propriety]. > > > > > [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. > > > > > > > > > > That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and > doubtless > > > > > more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. > > > > > > > > > > These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the > gap > > > > > to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. > The > > > > > almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on > > > > > juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small > farmer. > > > > > > > > > > There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign > > > > > (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say > he > > > > > died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not > > > > > unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years > > > > > before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for > Cople > > > > > parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not > > > > > seen. > > > > > > > > > > But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, > the > > > > > youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a > prominent > > > > > and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official > > > > > (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement > > > > > with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] > was > > > > > written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names > four > > > > > children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next > adjacent > > > > > to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married > again > > > > > right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care > for > > > > > and no married child to live with. > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county > records > > > > > until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that > John > > > > > & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the > fourth, > > > > > was born in the 1680's. > > > > > > > > > > Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him > to > > > > > have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a > > > > > total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the > idea. > > > > > > > > > > Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" > who > > > > > traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged > > > > > marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states > "Thus > > > > > far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is > believed > > > > > to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth > > > > > Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, > p.1]. > > > > > Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got > much > > > > > of the information about this marriage and its descendants from > Dennis > > > > > R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the > > > > > reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. > > > > > > > > > > The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of > > > > > children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is > > > > > given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the > Winn > > > > > Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account > with > > > > > Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be > found. > > > > > Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So > the > > > > > circle is complete. > > > > > > > > > > I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. > > > > > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > > > > > > >