Here's some sources I have for the Wynne/Berain marriage... Graham Milne, graham@gmilne.demon.co.uk Katherine of Berain (1534-1591) was the daughter of Tudor ap Robert Fychan of Berain (a descendant, in direct male line, of Marchweithian, Lord of Isaled, the 15th royal tribe of Wales), who married Jane Velville (b. 1510). ('Robert Vychan ap Tydr ap Ievan ap Tydr ap Griffith Lloyd ap Heilin Vrych ap Kynfrig ap Kynfrig ap Llowarch ap Heilin ap Tyfyd ap Tangno ap Ystrwth ap March Wystl ap Marchlithion, Lord of Isaled, 15th Tribe of Wales') Plas Mawr, Conway, N. Wales" by Arthur Baker and Herbert Baker - 1888 pg. 30 & 31 shows a pedigree of Robert Wynne.. "Pedigrees of Anglesey and Carnarvonshire Families" by John Edwards Griffith, 1914 ed., p. 223 1st John Salusbury, of Llyweni M.P. for co. Denbigh, 1554 p. 222 = 2nd Sir Richard Clough, Kt. of the Sepulchre, of Bach y Graig and Maenan Abby p. 329 = Catherine, of Berain, ob Aug. 27 and bur. Sept. 1, 1591 at Llannefydd = 3rd Maurice Wynn of Gwydir, being his 3rd wife, p. 280. = 4th Edward Thewall of Plas y Ward p. 274 s.p. p. 281 p. 280 Owen Jones ap John ap Howel and Margaret, d. of Owen ap John, of Ystumcegid, p. 232, Owen Jones ap John = Catherine, d. of Robert ap Rhys Wynn, of Graianog p. 230. She 2nd Morris Wynn, of Beddgelert. p. 218. Owen Jones ap John ap Howel ap Owen ap Evan ap Owen ap Ieuan ap Gruffydd ap Madog ap Iorwerth ap Madog ap Rhirid Flaidd ap Gwrgeneu ap Collwyn ap Moreiddig ap Rhys ap Gwerystan ap Llowarch ap Rhiwallon ap Aradri ap Mor ap Tegerin. p. 281, 223, 3rd Catherine alias "Catherine of Berain," d. and h's of Tudor ap Robert, and relict of Sir Richard Clough, ob Aug. 27,1591. = Morris Wynn, M.P. for co Carnarvon from 1553 = 1562, H.S.C. 1555- 1570 and 1578, ob. Aug. 10, 1580 Y Cymmroder, XL:42 (1929, Katheryn of Berain and some of her descendants, Table 2 - 1st Marriage.), John Salusbury, Buried at Llandefydd, 1566 = Katheryn of Berain, Buried at Llanefydd, 1591 (see p. 2) Arms of Berain., Gules, a lion rampant, ar., armed, azure. Y Cymmroder, XL:42 (1929, Katheryn of Berain and some of her descendants, Table 2 - 2st Marriage.), (1) Catherine Muldert, of Antwerp = Richard Clough, Knight of the Holy Sepulchre, d. 1570 = married 1567, (2) Katheryn of Berain. Y Cymmroder, XL:42 (1929, Katheryn of Berain and some of her descendants, Table III - 3rd Marriage.), Maurice Wynn of Gwydir = Katheryn of Berain Arms of Wynn. Vert, three eagels, displayed in fesse, or. History of the Gwydir Family and Memoirs Sir John Wynn; edited by J. Gwynfor Jones, Table III, 1. Morys Wynn of Gwydir, ma. Jane, d. of Sir Rd. Bulkeley Kt. of Beaumaris = 3rd Wife Catrin y Berain heiress of Berain. The History of the Gwydir Family" written by Sir John Wynne, Knt. and Bart, ut creditur & Patet. Oswestry, 1878, GWYDIR MEMORIALS page xvii One interesting incident in the family history is its connection with so celebrated a figure in Welsh annals as Catherine de Berain. It will be seen on Table III [opposite page 48] that "Mam gwalia" - as she was popularly called - was the third wife of Morris Wynn. Her portrait, taken in old age, was exhibited by the Rev. R. H. Howard, at the North Wales Exhibition, held at Wrexham in 1876; and there is, in Yorke's Royal Trives, the copy of the portrait of her when a young and blooming woman. "We are told that Catherine had for her first husband, Salisbury, heir of Lleweni, and by him had a son, Thomas, who was executed for Babinton's plot in Sep., 1587. Her second son, 'Sir John Salisbury, The Strong.' succeeded at Lleweni. Her Beren estate followed the heiress of the Lleweni house into the Combermere family. Her second husband was Sir Richard Clough; by him she had two daughters; one married Wynn of Melai, and the other Salisbury of Bachegraig, and from this marriage descended Dr. Johnson's friend Mrs. Thrale. Catherine's third husband was Maurice Wynn of Gwydir. Her fourth husband who survived her was Edward Thelwall, a widower and his son by a former marriage married the daughter of Catherine by Maurice Wynn... "Mam Gwalia is said by Yorke to have been a singular character but in what her singularity consisted - further than she had four husbands - we are not informed. Page xviii she lost no time in courting. After the funeral of her first husband she left the church in the company of Maurice Wynne, who, it is said, 'proposed' to her. He was too late, Sir Richard Clough having done so, and been accepted, as the funeral procession wended its way to the grave yard. However, she promised Maurice that, in case there should be another opening, he should be her third and he was 1. [1. See Bye Gones 1876 p. 132-3]. The Caernarvonshire Squires 1558-1625, Thesis for Masters Degree, Univ. of Wales by Emyr Gwynne Jones, B.A., supplied by Julie Zapf, p. 152, It says about Morrys - October 1553 he went up to Westminster with the comforatble assurrance that in the eyes of the Queen, he was one of those "grave men... of good and honest behaviour, order, and conversation, and.... of Catholique Religion". (4) C.W.P. No. 19, Instructions from Nicholas Heath, Archbishop of York and President of Wales, to John Wynn ap Meredith, Sheriff of Caernarvonshire, William Williams, etc. to elect members for the Parliament appointed to meet on the 20th. of October 1553. Maurice Wynn was elected (Williams:'Parlt.Hist.', p.58) p. 180, The younger sons were matched with some of the more eligible heiresses of the neighbourhood, and settled down to carve out their own fortunes; while Maurice Wynn, the heir, threw in his lot with the Bulkeleys of Baron Hill, the most progressive family of the day in North Wales.13 Maurice succeeded to the estate on the death of his father in 1559; 14 already he had thrice represented the country in parliament,(15) thanks to the extensive influence of his father in law; and in the sphere of country administration, his voice was always predominant above those of the other Justices of the Peace. But the greatest test of his abilities came in 1574, when the sudden emergence of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester as grantee of the encroachments of the Forest of Snowdon, forced upon the Caernarvonshire freeholders, the alternative either of temporizing, or of stubborn resistance, for Leicester was capable of playing the dual role of Tyrant and patron. Maurice, thoroughly grounded in the principles of the Bulkeley school, chose the less thorny path, and, while appearing as a representative of the freeholders' cause, diplomatically refrained from hurting the feelings of a man who could so easily "place and displace such as [he] thought good in those shires in Wales.".(16) That was the only policy which warranted success to one who was dually engaged in the task of securing for his family a place in the sun. Convinced too, that the social and intellectual barriers between Wales and England, presented no obstacle to an aspiring young gentleman, he gave his son an education that fully fitted him for social leadership.(17), and in 1576, successfully negotiated a match between Sydney Gerard and John Wynn, who in 1580, left london for the country to enter into his father's labours. (15) C: Williams: Parlt. Hist. p. 58 (16) C.W.P. 108, (17) Ibid, No. 61. Arch. Cam. 5th Series, vii: 314 (1890) Edward Thelwall son of Simon Thelwal son of Edward son of [Edward Thelwall ap Simon Thelwal ap Edward ap] Simon son of Edward Thelwal son of Simmwnd {Simon} son of Richard son of [Symon ap Edward Thelwal ap Simmwnd ap Richard ap] Edward Thelwall son of Eibl [sic] son of Simmwnd {Simon} Thelwall son of [Edward Thelwall ap Eibl ap Simmwnd Thelwall ap] Dafydd {David} Thelwal son of Sion [sic] Thelwal. [Dafydd Thelwal ap Sion Thelwal.] The mother of Edward Thelwal of {from} Lantanad was Sian daughter of [Mam Edward Thelwal o Lantanad oedd Sian verch] Moris [sic] Wynn son of Sion [sic] Wynn son of Meredydd (who held/acquired Ach Gwedir), [Moris Wynn ap Sion Wynn ap Meredydd (cais Ach Gwedir),] and his mother _____ [hithe ? unclear word] was Kattrin {Katherine} [a i mam hithe oedd Kattrin] daughter of Tudr [Tewdwr ?] son of Robert of Ferain. [verch Tudr ap Robert o Ferain.] The mother of Simmwnd {Simon} Thelwal was Dority {Dorothy} daughter of Sion [Mam Simmwnd Thelwal oedd Dority verch Sion] Gruffydd of{from} Cwchle or from Pehrhyn, son of William Griffith. [Gruffydd o'r Cwchle, ae o'r Penrhyn ap William Griffith] The mother of Edward Thelwal was Ales {Alice}, daughter of Robert Salbri [sic] [Mam Edward Thelwal oedd Ales verch Robert Salbri] son of Pyrs {Piers} Salbri of{from} Rug (the wife of Simwnt {Simon}Thelwal son [ap Pyrs Salbri o Rug (gwraig Simwnt] of Richard was she).' [Thelwal ap Richard oedd hi).] Colonial Families of Southern States, "Another interesting memorial of the Gwin Family is Gwydir Chapel, also at Llanrwst. This beautiful structure was erected in 1633 by Sir Richard Wynne of Gwydir. At the sides of the Chapel, set in panels of wood, are several engravings on glass, illustrative of the personages interred below. In the east corner is a tablet of white marble containing the pedigree of the family, comprising a period of 500 years; another tablet, and one of especial interest to the Gwynns and Wynns of America is thus: "The Chapel was erected A.D. 1633 by Richard Wynne of Gwydir, in the County of Carnarvon, Knight and Baronet, Treasurer of the High and Mighty Princess Henrietta Maria, Queen of England, daughter of Henry IV, King of France and wife of our sovereign Lord, King Charles, where lyeth buried his father, Sir John Wynne of Gwydir, Knight and Baronet, son and heir to Morris Wynne, son and heir to John Wynne, son and heir to Meredith Wynn which three lie buried in the Church of Dolwyddelan with tombs over them." Wynnstay & The Wynns, A vol. of Varieties, Oswestry: Pub. by Woodall and Venables, Bailey Head and Oswald Road 1876, viii, John Wynn, ap Meredith, of Gwydir, Carnarvonshire, who died in 1553. He married Ellen Lloyd, daughter of Maurice ab John ab Meredith, of Pennmorva, and he had by her, with other children. Maurice Wynn of Gwydir, who married twice. By his second wife, Catherine, daughter and heiress of Tudor ab Robert Vaughan, of Berain - Descended from Marchweithian, lord of Isaled. He was father to Edward Wynn, of Ystrad, founder of the Wynns of Llwyn [who were represented in the female line by the the late Rev. Lloyd Wynne, of Nerquis, Flintshire]. By his first wife Jane, daughter of Sir Richard Bulkeley, Knight, of Beaumaris, Maurice Wynn was father to John Wynn, Bart., of Gwydir. Peerage and Baronetage, Wynn p. 2373, John Wynne ap Meredith of Gwydir, co. Caernarvon - d. in 1559, He m. Elen Lloyd dau. of Moris ap John ap Meredith of Clenenney, and by her had with other issue an elder son, Morris Wynn Morris Wynn, of Gwydir, who m. twice. By his 2nd wife, Catherine, dau and heir of Tudor ap Robert Vychan, of Berain derived from Marchweithlian, Lord of Is-Aled, he was father of Edward Wynn, of Ystrad, ancestor of Wynns of Llwyn, represented in the female line by Llewellyn Watkin Howell Tringham, of Nerquis Hall, co. Flint. [See Burke's Landed Gentry] By his 1st wife Jane, dau. of Sir Richard Bulkeley, of Beaumaris, Knt., Morris Wynn was the father of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir b. in 1553. Descendants of Katheryn Tydr of Berain ferch Robert 1 Katheryn Tydr of Berain ferch "Catherine-y-Berain" Robert b: 1534 Berain d: August 27, 1591 .. +1st Owen Jones m: Bef. 1565 *2nd Husband of Katheryn Tydr of Berain ferch "Catherine-y-Berain" Robert: .. +John "The Younger of Lleweny" Salusbury m: Bef. 1566 d: 1566 *3rd Husband of Katheryn Tydr of Berain ferch "Catherine-y-Berain" Robert: .. +Morys (Maurice)"Morris Wynn of Gwydir, Maurice Wynn Morrys Wynne" Wynne b: 1529 Gwydyr [Gwynedd] Caernarvon, Wales m: Bef. 1567 d: August 10, 1580 Carnarvon, Wales 2 Edward Wynn .... +Blanche Vaughan 2 Sian (Jane/Joan) verch Moris (Maurice) Wynn .... +Simon Thelwall d: 1665 2 Morris Wynn b: 1563 Gwynedd,Caernarvon,Wales d: September 6, 1609 Canterbury, Kent, England 2 Robert Wynn *4th Husband of Katheryn Tydr of Berain ferch "Catherine-y-Berain" Robert: .. +Richard"Richard Clough, Knight of the Holy Sepulchre" Clough b: 1530 m: 1567 d: 1570 *5th Husband of Katheryn Tydr of Berain ferch "Catherine-y-Berain" Robert: .. +Edward Thelwall b: Plas-y-Ward m: Aft. 1567 d: July 29, 1610 Descendants of Sion (John Wyn) ap Meredydd 1 Sion (John Wyn) ap Meredydd b: 1495 Gwydir d: July 9, 1559 Plas Mawr, Conway, N. Wales, says 1553 .. +Sydney Gerrard *2nd Wife of Sion (John Wyn) ap Meredydd: .. +Euna *3rd Wife of Sion (John Wyn) ap Meredydd: .. +Elen [Elin} ferch Morus "Ellen Lloyd ferch Morys ap John ap Meredith" Lloyd d: Abt. 1572 2 Morys (Maurice) Wynne "Morris Wynn of Gwydir, Maurice Wynn Morrys Wynne" b: 1529 Gwydyr [Gwynedd] Caernarvon, Wales d: August 10, 1580 Carnarvon, Wales .... +Jane [Janett] Bulkeley b: 1531 Gwynedd, Caernarvon, Wales m: 1548 Carnarvon, Wales d: Abt. 1553 *2nd Wife of Morys (Maurice) Wynne )"Morris Wynn of Gwydir, Maurice Wynn Morrys Wynne" : .... +Ann Greville b: Milcote, Warwick, England m: Aft. 1553 *3rd Wife of Morys (Maurice)"Morris Wynn of Gwydir, Maurice Wynn Morrys Wynne" Wynne: .... +Katheryn Tydr of Berain ferch Robert, "Catherine-y-Berain" b: 1534 Berain m: Bef. 1567 d: August 27, 1591 2 Griffith [Gruffudd] Wynne b: Berth Ddu .... +Gwen Salusbury "Gwen Salisbury" 2 Robert Wynne "Robert Wynne of Plas Mawr, Conway" b: Abt. 1570 Gwydir, Wales d: 1598 .... +Dorothy Griffith *2nd Wife of Robert Wynne "Robert Wynne of Plas Mawr, Conway" : .... +Dorothy [Dimock] Dymock 2 John Wynn 2 Owen Wynn .... +Elin Salisbury 2 Annes [Agnes] Wynn .... +William Williams 2 Margaret Wynn .... +William Griffith Hope it helps? Becky Thill ttg-inc@attbi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "HERBERT WINN" <HWINN32@msn.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:48 PM Subject: [WINN] robert wynne > hi martha ! got your reply to my e-mail. what I have so far is : morys wynne b:1529 d:1580 m: (3rd wife) bef 1567 katheryn tydr of berain. she was the dau of tudor the son of robert vychan & jane velville katheryn was b: 1534 d:1591. the children I have for them are : edward, jane/joan, robert, morris. if I can get my contacts in the uk to work I might be able to prove that this robert could be our mayor. our robert was born in 1563 so the time frame is correct. we will see what I can come up up with and keep you posted. BYE HERB > >