This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: rlwynne_1 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.winn/1643.1.1.2.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I've posted this message as a continuation of the thread in which the original exchanges took place. The writer Jack Wynn points out outlying variations in the evolution of the Wynne surname outside of Colonial Virginia which should be taken into account by those researching the surname beyond the subject heading of this message thread. I would also add that for some time in the early 1600's the London woolendraper Richard Wynne who migrated from Shrewsbury and died in London 1688 was one of the wealthiest men of his time. I have come to believe that because of his wealth and fame he somewhat set the standard for anyone bearing some form of the Wynne surname until the interregnum. Dear Jack- You are not stirring the pot at all. But I don't think you understand the limits of my response. If you will notice my response is directed in particular to an enquiry about the Rev. John Gwynn of Abingdon Parish, Gloucester, VA. My comments are entirely focused on that time period and in colonial Virginia. I also, specifically limited my comment about evolving forms of the surname specifically to the last 100 years which would take us to 1910. What happened in the American hinterlands or upstate New York during this period is a question well beyond the scope of the original question and my answer. There is now a move by some of the titled Wynne families to return to the original spelling of the family surname in one extreme circumstance from Winn to Wynne. Your statement of "more sophisticated sounding" is no doubt an emulation by some of a similar surname to the line of Dr. Thomas Wynne who self promoted his descent from Gwydir and others with the surname. Here I can say both in America and England would on occasion add the silent /e/. The general trend in America and England/Wales and as I originally stated in colonial Virginia is that the name through time evolves to its simplest form and one cannot make familial judgments about relationship based on the spelling of the Wynne surname alone. In the case of say the enslaved who took on the surname Wynne the spelling has changed at a greater pace since the American Civil War than perhaps in any other population. With respect to the Flemish Wynne's; this is an entirely different problem. Something like attempting to correlate the surname Lee with England, China and Korea. Here the phonetic spelling of the surname is all that is common and any relationship to a common gene pool certainly remotely relevant. As a direct lineal descendant whose surname spelling has not changed since it arrived in Virginia I stand by my original statement. Here I would point out in my line alone there are a number of early Wynne's of record in early Virginia. In the Norton Mss Col. we find a number of letters written by one of my early grandfather's in which he asks that goods be shipped along with "his good friend Richard Wynne". We have never been able to determine what if any relationship the other Wynne's in Tidewater Virginia may have to our line though they clearly collaborated and traded with one another for some period of time. So the similarity of surname spelling in this instance moves us no further to an understanding of what if any relationship the several lines of Wynne living in the late 17th C late 18th C may have. Here there does not seem to be any surving Wynne line of the other Tidewater Virginia Wynne's for comparative evaluation and the mystery may well remain. Regards, Robert Wynne On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 16:08:53 -0500 jwynn wrote: I have to stir the pot slightly. I was told or read somewhere the spelling "WINNE" as used widely by early New York residents was Flemish, not Welch. We have a TV reporter here in Atlanta with that spelling. He pronounces his name as Winnie. I have seen a couple of examples of WYNN men who after marriage added an "e" to the end "because it was more sophisticated sounding". I'm about to finish the 1860 New York Wynn(e)/Winn(e) census. It might be an interesting comparison with the 1870 and later the 1880 Census to see how many name alterations there were. Jack Wynn On Mar 5, 2010, at 7:00 PM, gc-gateway@rootsweb.com wrote: This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing Author: rlwynne_1 Message Board Post: Well that is an entirely different linguistic problem. I have found it impossible - except to make some allowance for a possibility in surname similarities - to establish absolute familial relationships to anyone bearing a form of the Wynne surname especially in Virginia. This is as there are known occurrences of various forms of the surname appearing from the start of Jamestowne to the 1700's that appear in the Virginia record that differ from the spelling of the same individual in the English record. One thing that is certain is that the surname is always "edged" as it evolves to the form "Winn" as this is the straightforward phonetic spelling of the surname. In the American Colonial period where less sophisticated scribes were inclined if not encouraged the surname almost always was reduced to Winn. The double /n/ always remained as it then could not be confused with win. In the most ancient occurrence of the various forms of the surname they arise spelled Gwyn, Wyn and Win. The Anglo/Welsh addition of the second consonant /n/ seems to appear by the mid 14th C though the occurrence of the spelling of the surname Gwynne/Wynne in its most complex form is seen in the "Shrewsbury Burgess Roll" in the 1300's and is firmly in place by mid to late 16th C along with the spelling of the alternate Gwynne in the same citation. In London the gentrification of spelling - the Queen's or King's English - edged the spelling of surnames and other words to a common spelling and the surna! me is seen in many Londoner's originally spelling thier surname Gwynne or Wynne, evolving to Gwinne or Winne, then to Gwinn or Winn and finally to Winn by the mid 1700's with the introduction of the first English dictionary that attempted for the first time to codify various spellings of the same word into one spelling. Prior to this period all words were spelled variously as they were pronounced phonetically. One can see that though English was the common language of the realm, the hinterlands maintained the old spellings long after the mid 1700's. One might draw a conclusion the survival of the surname /Wynne/ or /Gwynne/ represents the escape of individuals bearing the surname from the influence of contemporary modernization of spelling at play at the time of the emigrant. Today and for the last 100 years due to the advent of birth certificates surname spelling has been far more consistent with the spelling of the father. -Robert Wynne Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.