Great info Larry. Maybe I can, at some point, leave a reference section on my site outlining the various spellings and how to interpret/use them. I've never seen this addressed with any kind of overview of the subject. Thanks for all your help. I hope I can use this as a start. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Wynne" <rlwynne@astound.net> To: "'Randy'" <rsmart@ancestor-rescue.com>; <winn@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] A Gwynne/Winn Situation for Myles > Randy- I'm not sure if you are researching Gwynne or Wynn(e). There is a > big > difference in the history behind each spelling of the surname (see > Morgan-"Welsh Surnames" and P.H. Reaney-"A Dictionary of English > Surnames". > > The Gwydir Wynn's never spelled their surname "Gwynne". This spelling of > the > surname Gwynne is almost always associated with a South Wales borderland's > origin. The Gwydir Wynn spelling convention can be confirmed by a review > of > the Gwydir usage of the surname Wyn - Wynn in the "Calendar of Wynn Papers > 1515-1690" reprinted by John Ballenger, pub. 1926. -Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: winn-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:winn-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf > Of Randy > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 9:58 AM > To: winn@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [WINN] A Gwynne/Winn Situation for Myles > > Myles, > > I agree. > > After waiting many years for all the "founts" to unravel their common > lines > and provide serious documentation suitable for easy referencing, I've > decided to get involved myself. I'm not that well-trained in genealogy but > I > > think I'm a fair analyst and accurate documenter. Being also part Scott, I > have a propensity to sort things out. > > This winter, I am pursuing a effort to accurately document my direct line, > working backward. In this, I have found some help on this list. We hope to > solicit even more help when most of the immediate documentation is loaded > and organized. > > With a little time and help, I hope we can provide a good reference site > covering what we actually know between us and augmented with the best > guesses we can make (labeled/sourced as such). Providing contextual > information on sources, the Internet provides an opportunity to put out > the > best family history possible considering the information available at this > point. > > Ancient Gwynnedd genealogy, as documented by Sir John Wynne (available > online at: > http://books.google.com/books?id=DCoAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA62&dq=history+gwydir#v=on > epage&q=&f=false) > shows how the direct line ended, even after circumventing one heir thought > too ugly, with his broken nose, to rule. Another heir, Llewelan (sp) > stirred > > up a commotion over the issue and a lot of heads rolled. Shortly after Sir > John Wynne's time, you see the direct line being swamped by the "bastard" > lines and a plethora of cousins moving all over northern Wales. I found no > mention of America or any sea captains. I now consider the connection > vague > and have noted my Winn History as such. > > Let us remember that, although the Gwynne family history is carved in > stone > and embedded in a stone chapel, its genealogy has been found somewhat > inaccurate. If we conclude a family relationship exists, make notation of > such, and ignore the actual evidence, we do a disservice to those who > later > attempt to straighten out our errors without access to the actual source. > The lessons of good documentation--the humility to consider the nuances of > documentation--is something we should continue to remind each other of. > Thomas Paine said something completely timeless in Common Sense: > > A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial > appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in > defence of custom. But tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than > reason. > > However, in the hope that reason can make more converts with time, I am > banking on reason. ;-) > > Randy C. Smart > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj33@comcast.net> > To: <winn@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:37 AM > Subject: Re: [WINN] A Gwynne/Winn Situation for Myles > > > The >> Minor Winn line is, I think, unnecessarily confused and surely could use >> a >> good. Clear account. Ditto Richard Winn of Middlesex co. And Hugh Gwynn >> of >> Gwynn's Is. & Gloucester co. has never had a good account written about >> his >> line. And the account I wrote on John Wynne's line is now over 20 yrs. >> Old >> and badly needs updating with the corrections and additions that >> Frederick >> Boelt has compiled in those 20+ yrs. I've kept waiting in hopes we would >> solve the John Wynne ancestry problem. >> >> The different versions of the descendant lines seem to be what is causing >> confusion in the interpretation of DNA results, so getting their stories >> straight would be a great service. >> >> Myles Johnson >> >> ****************************************************** > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WINN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WINN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Randy- Within the last year or so I posted an "if", "and" and "or" or "nor" list for every consonant and vowel permutation that the surname Wynne can take. If you search the message board by my name you ought to be able to find the thread with that topic. With respect to your research for Gwynne or Wynne; both forms are a unique form of the surname and appear in their earliest forms in the Shrewsbury Burgess Roll in the 1300's (Gwydir does not use or refer to the Wynn surname until 1525 at the earliest). The use of the silent pending "e" seems to occur in the Shrewsbury region at that time and is an English linguistics custom laid over a Welsh surname not to mention a lot of other nouns and verbs in the period. Briefly, use of the consonant "g" preceding Wynn or Wynne is almost unique to South Wales so with Gwynne there is something of a time and region "stamp" for the origin of Gwynne. There are some outlying incidences of the use of Gwynn or Gwynne in the north but almost always is presumably used to define a junior or rarely female descent. For example, in the late 16th C there was a collateral line of Gwydir recorded in the Conway Parish Register in which the christenings of the daughters of a Robert Wynn of Plas Mawr are recorded with surnames Gwynn or Gwynne and the sons recorded as Wynn or Wynne. Keep in mind that the Welsh were late to use surnames and very late to assume the use of the surname Wyn or Gwyn and variants. The earliest use of the surname is Anglo/Norman and precedes the use by the Gwydir Wynn's by 300-400 years. Though I have yet to find any surviving descendants whose ancestors use the surname Wyn in the Anglo/Norman era. I can send copies of the Morgan and Reanney Wynn/Gwynn references if you like but I would need your e-mail address as there is no way to post attachments on the board. There are probably several terabytes of data scanned over the years. Most of my research is directed to the 17th C Virginia Wynne's some recorded in the "Virginia Court Books" for the London Company of Virginia and other Wynne's who emigrated later after the dissolution of the Virginia Company and its takeover of the Virginia Colony by the Crown in 1626/7. If you are interested in knowing the holders of the surname Wynne in surviving distincted English lines you would start with the Baron St. Oswald (began as a Wynne then to Winne and now Winn), the Duke of Chandos and Buckingham (the line of Anne Fremantle descendant of Richard Wynne of Montgomershire and the famous Giustiniana Wynne) and the Baronet Williams-Wynn (Gwydir). Are you researching Gwynne or Wynne? I think you are researching Gwynne which is an archaic and unusual form of the surname to survive in that form in the U.S. as almost every emigrant had his surname reduced to a simpler form by some clerk through time. -Larry -----Original Message----- From: winn-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:winn-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Randy Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 8:26 AM To: winn@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [WINN] A Gwynne/Winn Situation for Myles Great info Larry. Maybe I can, at some point, leave a reference section on my site outlining the various spellings and how to interpret/use them. I've never seen this addressed with any kind of overview of the subject. Thanks for all your help. I hope I can use this as a start. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Wynne" <rlwynne@astound.net> To: "'Randy'" <rsmart@ancestor-rescue.com>; <winn@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] A Gwynne/Winn Situation for Myles > Randy- I'm not sure if you are researching Gwynne or Wynn(e). There is a > big > difference in the history behind each spelling of the surname (see > Morgan-"Welsh Surnames" and P.H. Reaney-"A Dictionary of English > Surnames". > > The Gwydir Wynn's never spelled their surname "Gwynne". This spelling of > the > surname Gwynne is almost always associated with a South Wales borderland's > origin. The Gwydir Wynn spelling convention can be confirmed by a review > of > the Gwydir usage of the surname Wyn - Wynn in the "Calendar of Wynn Papers > 1515-1690" reprinted by John Ballenger, pub. 1926. -Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: winn-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:winn-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf > Of Randy > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 9:58 AM > To: winn@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [WINN] A Gwynne/Winn Situation for Myles > > Myles, > > I agree. > > After waiting many years for all the "founts" to unravel their common > lines > and provide serious documentation suitable for easy referencing, I've > decided to get involved myself. I'm not that well-trained in genealogy but > I > > think I'm a fair analyst and accurate documenter. Being also part Scott, I > have a propensity to sort things out. > > This winter, I am pursuing a effort to accurately document my direct line, > working backward. In this, I have found some help on this list. We hope to > solicit even more help when most of the immediate documentation is loaded > and organized. > > With a little time and help, I hope we can provide a good reference site > covering what we actually know between us and augmented with the best > guesses we can make (labeled/sourced as such). Providing contextual > information on sources, the Internet provides an opportunity to put out > the > best family history possible considering the information available at this > point. > > Ancient Gwynnedd genealogy, as documented by Sir John Wynne (available > online at: > http://books.google.com/books?id=DCoAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA62&dq=history+gwydir#v=on > epage&q=&f=false) > shows how the direct line ended, even after circumventing one heir thought > too ugly, with his broken nose, to rule. Another heir, Llewelan (sp) > stirred > > up a commotion over the issue and a lot of heads rolled. Shortly after Sir > John Wynne's time, you see the direct line being swamped by the "bastard" > lines and a plethora of cousins moving all over northern Wales. I found no > mention of America or any sea captains. I now consider the connection > vague > and have noted my Winn History as such. > > Let us remember that, although the Gwynne family history is carved in > stone > and embedded in a stone chapel, its genealogy has been found somewhat > inaccurate. If we conclude a family relationship exists, make notation of > such, and ignore the actual evidence, we do a disservice to those who > later > attempt to straighten out our errors without access to the actual source. > The lessons of good documentation--the humility to consider the nuances of > documentation--is something we should continue to remind each other of. > Thomas Paine said something completely timeless in Common Sense: > > A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial > appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in > defence of custom. But tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than > reason. > > However, in the hope that reason can make more converts with time, I am > banking on reason. ;-) > > Randy C. Smart > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj33@comcast.net> > To: <winn@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 8:37 AM > Subject: Re: [WINN] A Gwynne/Winn Situation for Myles > > > The >> Minor Winn line is, I think, unnecessarily confused and surely could use >> a >> good. Clear account. Ditto Richard Winn of Middlesex co. And Hugh Gwynn >> of >> Gwynn's Is. & Gloucester co. has never had a good account written about >> his >> line. And the account I wrote on John Wynne's line is now over 20 yrs. >> Old >> and badly needs updating with the corrections and additions that >> Frederick >> Boelt has compiled in those 20+ yrs. I've kept waiting in hopes we would >> solve the John Wynne ancestry problem. >> >> The different versions of the descendant lines seem to be what is causing >> confusion in the interpretation of DNA results, so getting their stories >> straight would be a great service. >> >> Myles Johnson >> >> ****************************************************** > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WINN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WINN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WINN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message