Myles-- Would you then conclude that there was only one Dr. John Wynne in the area then, and that is has to be the Dr. John Wynne who lived and died in St. Mary's, and who we think or have been lead to believe, was from Guisborough, England?? By the way, I am working with a researcher from that area who will be doing some work for me in trying to find out if this Dr. John Wynne was in fact from there, and that his parents are in fact Richard Wynne and Anne Colthurst. Preliminary work does show the above couple living there, and there is a will on file for Richard Wynne, and having a son named John, and the time frame does fit...just no solid connection that they are the same John Wynne. Appreciate your thoughts on all of this!! Terry Hardgrave

Myles, In your message to Becky you wrote: I don't know of any other subscriber to this Winn-L list who desc. from this John Wynne of York Co. What state are you referring to concerning your John Wynne of York County? Joyce Original Message: ----------------- From: Myles Johnson mylesj@his.com Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:30:11 -0500 To: WINN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland Hi Becky, The fact is that the this marriage was was never proved. The burden of proof is on the assertion. Until a proposed event is proved or reasonably argued for, it should not be used, except as speculation -- which is where this Winn-Minor marriage started. Later, as is always the case, it got taken as fact, not a guess, and now has a life of its own which well-nigh inextinguishable -- a prime example of the dangers of publishing unproven "facts". Re Wynne-Hines: I think one of the versions floating around uses this but it is all wrong. The Wynne-Hines marriage actually comes from my own family's info -- gen. info sent to Edmund J. Cleveland by my gr-gr-GM, M.E.C. Wynne and publ. by him in "The Cleveland Genealogy" (1899). But it was a John Wynne who she said m. "Dorothea Vines or Hinds". This John Wynne was "from Sir Thomas Wynne descended" --- not clearly a son, poss. grandson. Since this is my direct line, I have been seeking some doc. proof of this for some 20 years, without success. As far as I can tell, this 'Sir Thomas - John m. Hinds/Vines' version was entered into Virkus' Compendium of unproven gens., was passed on to W.W. Smith and Mame E. Wood, who grafted it onto their speculations, and thence to an unknown number of family trees. My current theory -- no more than that -- is that my Wynne immigrant was Thomas Wynne, son of a Thomas Wynne, a Turkey merchant from Shrewsbury. His family is the one given by Anne Fremantle in "The Wynne Diaries", but we know nothing about who or how many chn. this immigrant Thomas may have had. He could not have arr. Va. before 1640, nor do we know whom he marr. One has to skip a gen. before coming to my 1st proven Wynne, John Wynne of York Co. (1705?-1772). I don't know of any other subscriber to this Winn-L list who desc. from this John Wynne of York Co.. If there is, please let me know. Myles Johnson -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

Thanks to all cousins who cleared up the cousin question for me. Regards, Cousin Mary Winn Anderson ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Thill Group Inc" <ttg-inc@attbi.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] Cousins--sort of off topic > Dear Mary, > Your First cousin is your aunt/uncles child > Your First cousin once removed is your first cousin's child > Second cousin: is what two great grand daughter/sons are to each other > > If you go to this web page [my website] it shows the relationship chart... I > got confuzzed like you many times so got a chart. > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~ttg13/relationshipchart.html > > > Cuz B > ttg-inc@attbi.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "marywinn" <marywinn@cfl.rr.com> > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:04 PM > Subject: [WINN] Cousins--sort of off topic > > > > Could someone explain the difference in "first cousin once removed" and > "second cousin". I have managed to confuse myself royally. > > > > Happy holidays to all. > > > > Regards, > > Mary Winn Anderson > > >

Hi Becky, The fact is that the this marriage was was never proved. The burden of proof is on the assertion. Until a proposed event is proved or reasonably argued for, it should not be used, except as speculation -- which is where this Winn-Minor marriage started. Later, as is always the case, it got taken as fact, not a guess, and now has a life of its own which well-nigh inextinguishable -- a prime example of the dangers of publishing unproven "facts". Re Wynne-Hines: I think one of the versions floating around uses this but it is all wrong. The Wynne-Hines marriage actually comes from my own family's info -- gen. info sent to Edmund J. Cleveland by my gr-gr-GM, M.E.C. Wynne and publ. by him in "The Cleveland Genealogy" (1899). But it was a John Wynne who she said m. "Dorothea Vines or Hinds". This John Wynne was "from Sir Thomas Wynne descended" --- not clearly a son, poss. grandson. Since this is my direct line, I have been seeking some doc. proof of this for some 20 years, without success. As far as I can tell, this 'Sir Thomas - John m. Hinds/Vines' version was entered into Virkus' Compendium of unproven gens., was passed on to W.W. Smith and Mame E. Wood, who grafted it onto their speculations, and thence to an unknown number of family trees. My current theory -- no more than that -- is that my Wynne immigrant was Thomas Wynne, son of a Thomas Wynne, a Turkey merchant from Shrewsbury. His family is the one given by Anne Fremantle in "The Wynne Diaries", but we know nothing about who or how many chn. this immigrant Thomas may have had. He could not have arr. Va. before 1640, nor do we know whom he marr. One has to skip a gen. before coming to my 1st proven Wynne, John Wynne of York Co. (1705?-1772). I don't know of any other subscriber to this Winn-L list who desc. from this John Wynne of York Co.. If there is, please let me know. Myles Johnson ***************************************************************** The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > Ok Myles, > I have no problem with "alleged", your correct shown is to close to proven. > Do you remember our discussion with Velma about this line. That is where it > was talked about that his father was thought to be Thomas Winn who married > Dorothy Hines. > Becky > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:05 PM > Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > Hi Becky, > > This John Winn has never been "shown" to be married to Eliz. Minor -- > > only alleged to be so. > > As to his father: Who knows? Which Thomas? So far, there just is no > > evidence to link him anywhere. > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > ********************************************************** > > > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > > > So this John Winn who has been shown in the past to be married to > Elizabeth > > > Minor you feel was not married to her. and where others have said he was > the > > > child of a Thomas Winn you don't believe that is so also? > > > Cuz B > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:15 PM > > > Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > > > Hi Becky, > > > > I really have no idea where this John Winn fits in. Certainly no idea > of > > > > his ancestry and I don't even see any evidence sufficient to identify > a > > > > family. The children assigned to him in the various and different > > > > assortments in the published genealogies were, I think, attempts to > > > > create a family that, in fact, never existed, not to deceive anyone > but > > > > just because some folks thought there must have been such a family. > > > > > > > > Sorry I can't be any more help than that. > > > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > > > > > ********************************************************* > > > > > > > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Myles, > > > > > To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe > John > > > Winn's > > > > > line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations > before > > > him > > > > > an a couple after him? > > > > > Cuz Becky > > > > > ttg-inc@attbi.com > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > > > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM > > > > > Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an > > > > > addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & > the > > > > > LVA on this man. > > > > > > > > > > John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. > > > > > > > > > > My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for > John > > > > > Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. > The > > > > > records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of > > > > > Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an > excellent > > > > > research library, just across from the CH. This county has a > continuous > > > > > series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. > > > > > > > > > > 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, > > > > > Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, > Cavaliers & > > > > > Pioneers, v.1:366]. > > > > > > > > > > >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: > > > > > 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & > Eliz. > > > > > Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. > > > > > 1:78]. > > > > > > > > > > 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to > Mr. > > > > > Henry Brett. > > > > > [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. > > > > > > > > > > 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by > the > > > > > Grand Jury. > > > > > [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some > > > > > propriety]. > > > > > [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. > > > > > > > > > > That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and > doubtless > > > > > more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. > > > > > > > > > > These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the > gap > > > > > to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. > The > > > > > almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on > > > > > juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small > farmer. > > > > > > > > > > There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign > > > > > (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say > he > > > > > died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not > > > > > unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years > > > > > before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for > Cople > > > > > parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not > > > > > seen. > > > > > > > > > > But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, > the > > > > > youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a > prominent > > > > > and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official > > > > > (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement > > > > > with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] > was > > > > > written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names > four > > > > > children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next > adjacent > > > > > to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married > again > > > > > right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care > for > > > > > and no married child to live with. > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county > records > > > > > until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that > John > > > > > & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the > fourth, > > > > > was born in the 1680's. > > > > > > > > > > Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him > to > > > > > have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a > > > > > total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the > idea. > > > > > > > > > > Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" > who > > > > > traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged > > > > > marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states > "Thus > > > > > far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is > believed > > > > > to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth > > > > > Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, > p.1]. > > > > > Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got > much > > > > > of the information about this marriage and its descendants from > Dennis > > > > > R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the > > > > > reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. > > > > > > > > > > The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of > > > > > children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is > > > > > given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the > Winn > > > > > Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account > with > > > > > Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be > found. > > > > > Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So > the > > > > > circle is complete. > > > > > > > > > > I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. > > > > > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > > > > > > >

Myles, Great! I have looked and looked in Westmoreland to find a John Winn in any Court Records. One record for John Minor that, also, helps : Westmoreland Co VA Deeds Patents Etc. 1655-1677, Part 3, pag. 46 (Dorman): page 247a John Minor, aged 24 years or thereabouts ... signed John Minor (5 Jan 1675/76). This court record supports your info that John and Ellenor married about 1670-80 and that Elizabeth Minor was probably not born until 1680. Thanks for pointing out that William Avery Miner knew that there was no documented proof that a John Winn married Elizabeth Minor nor any of the other Winn info that he included in his book/article on John Minor. Thanks again for sharing your info. Deanna Ames. ----- Original Message ----- From: Myles Johnson <mylesj@his.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > Hi Becky, > This John Winn has never been "shown" to be married to Eliz. Minor -- > only alleged to be so. > As to his father: Who knows? Which Thomas? So far, there just is no > evidence to link him anywhere. > > Myles Johnson > > ********************************************************** > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > So this John Winn who has been shown in the past to be married to Elizabeth > > Minor you feel was not married to her. and where others have said he was the > > child of a Thomas Winn you don't believe that is so also? > > Cuz B

I have lots of charts to show relationship, but the simplest way I have ever been shown is the "Step Version". You place the relatives on doorsteps like this; Each step is a generation: __Brother-------------------------Sister____ l l ___ Child-----First Cousin-- Child___ l _____Child ------First Cousin once removed If you are not standing on the same step then you are "once removed" or two steps down you are "twice" removed.

Hi Becky, This John Winn has never been "shown" to be married to Eliz. Minor -- only alleged to be so. As to his father: Who knows? Which Thomas? So far, there just is no evidence to link him anywhere. Myles Johnson ********************************************************** The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > So this John Winn who has been shown in the past to be married to Elizabeth > Minor you feel was not married to her. and where others have said he was the > child of a Thomas Winn you don't believe that is so also? > Cuz B > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:15 PM > Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > Hi Becky, > > I really have no idea where this John Winn fits in. Certainly no idea of > > his ancestry and I don't even see any evidence sufficient to identify a > > family. The children assigned to him in the various and different > > assortments in the published genealogies were, I think, attempts to > > create a family that, in fact, never existed, not to deceive anyone but > > just because some folks thought there must have been such a family. > > > > Sorry I can't be any more help than that. > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > ********************************************************* > > > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > > > Dear Myles, > > > To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe John > Winn's > > > line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations before > him > > > an a couple after him? > > > Cuz Becky > > > ttg-inc@attbi.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM > > > Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > > Hi All, > > > I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an > > > addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. > > > > > > Hi All, > > > The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & the > > > LVA on this man. > > > > > > John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. > > > > > > My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for John > > > Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. The > > > records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of > > > Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an excellent > > > research library, just across from the CH. This county has a continuous > > > series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. > > > > > > 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, > > > Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, Cavaliers & > > > Pioneers, v.1:366]. > > > > > > >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: > > > 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & Eliz. > > > Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. > > > 1:78]. > > > > > > 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to Mr. > > > Henry Brett. > > > [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. > > > > > > 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by the > > > Grand Jury. > > > [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some > > > propriety]. > > > [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. > > > > > > That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and doubtless > > > more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. > > > > > > These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the gap > > > to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. The > > > almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on > > > juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small farmer. > > > > > > There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign > > > (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say he > > > died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not > > > unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years > > > before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for Cople > > > parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not > > > seen. > > > > > > But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, the > > > youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a prominent > > > and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official > > > (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement > > > with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] was > > > written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names four > > > children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next adjacent > > > to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married again > > > right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care for > > > and no married child to live with. > > > > > > Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county records > > > until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that John > > > & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the fourth, > > > was born in the 1680's. > > > > > > Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him to > > > have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a > > > total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the idea. > > > > > > Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" who > > > traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged > > > marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states "Thus > > > far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is believed > > > to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth > > > Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, p.1]. > > > Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got much > > > of the information about this marriage and its descendants from Dennis > > > R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the > > > reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. > > > > > > The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of > > > children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is > > > given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the Winn > > > Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account with > > > Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be found. > > > Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So the > > > circle is complete. > > > > > > I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > >

Hi Becky, I really have no idea where this John Winn fits in. Certainly no idea of his ancestry and I don't even see any evidence sufficient to identify a family. The children assigned to him in the various and different assortments in the published genealogies were, I think, attempts to create a family that, in fact, never existed, not to deceive anyone but just because some folks thought there must have been such a family. Sorry I can't be any more help than that. Myles Johnson ********************************************************* The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > Dear Myles, > To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe John Winn's > line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations before him > an a couple after him? > Cuz Becky > ttg-inc@attbi.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM > Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > Hi All, > I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an > addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. > > Hi All, > The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & the > LVA on this man. > > John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. > > My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for John > Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. The > records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of > Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an excellent > research library, just across from the CH. This county has a continuous > series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. > > 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, > Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, Cavaliers & > Pioneers, v.1:366]. > > >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: > 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & Eliz. > Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. > 1:78]. > > 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to Mr. > Henry Brett. > [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. > > 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by the > Grand Jury. > [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some > propriety]. > [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. > > That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and doubtless > more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. > > These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the gap > to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. The > almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on > juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small farmer. > > There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign > (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say he > died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not > unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years > before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for Cople > parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not > seen. > > But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, the > youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a prominent > and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official > (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement > with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] was > written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names four > children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next adjacent > to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married again > right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care for > and no married child to live with. > > Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county records > until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that John > & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the fourth, > was born in the 1680's. > > Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him to > have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a > total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the idea. > > Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" who > traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged > marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states "Thus > far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is believed > to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth > Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, p.1]. > Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got much > of the information about this marriage and its descendants from Dennis > R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the > reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. > > The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of > children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is > given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the Winn > Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account with > Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be found. > Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So the > circle is complete. > > I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. > > Myles Johnson

Ok Myles, I have no problem with "alleged", your correct shown is to close to proven. Do you remember our discussion with Velma about this line. That is where it was talked about that his father was thought to be Thomas Winn who married Dorothy Hines. Becky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > Hi Becky, > This John Winn has never been "shown" to be married to Eliz. Minor -- > only alleged to be so. > As to his father: Who knows? Which Thomas? So far, there just is no > evidence to link him anywhere. > > Myles Johnson > > ********************************************************** > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > So this John Winn who has been shown in the past to be married to Elizabeth > > Minor you feel was not married to her. and where others have said he was the > > child of a Thomas Winn you don't believe that is so also? > > Cuz B > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:15 PM > > Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > Hi Becky, > > > I really have no idea where this John Winn fits in. Certainly no idea of > > > his ancestry and I don't even see any evidence sufficient to identify a > > > family. The children assigned to him in the various and different > > > assortments in the published genealogies were, I think, attempts to > > > create a family that, in fact, never existed, not to deceive anyone but > > > just because some folks thought there must have been such a family. > > > > > > Sorry I can't be any more help than that. > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > > > ********************************************************* > > > > > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Myles, > > > > To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe John > > Winn's > > > > line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations before > > him > > > > an a couple after him? > > > > Cuz Becky > > > > ttg-inc@attbi.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM > > > > Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an > > > > addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & the > > > > LVA on this man. > > > > > > > > John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. > > > > > > > > My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for John > > > > Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. The > > > > records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of > > > > Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an excellent > > > > research library, just across from the CH. This county has a continuous > > > > series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. > > > > > > > > 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, > > > > Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, Cavaliers & > > > > Pioneers, v.1:366]. > > > > > > > > >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: > > > > 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & Eliz. > > > > Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. > > > > 1:78]. > > > > > > > > 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to Mr. > > > > Henry Brett. > > > > [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. > > > > > > > > 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by the > > > > Grand Jury. > > > > [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some > > > > propriety]. > > > > [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. > > > > > > > > That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and doubtless > > > > more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. > > > > > > > > These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the gap > > > > to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. The > > > > almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on > > > > juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small farmer. > > > > > > > > There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign > > > > (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say he > > > > died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not > > > > unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years > > > > before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for Cople > > > > parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not > > > > seen. > > > > > > > > But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, the > > > > youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a prominent > > > > and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official > > > > (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement > > > > with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] was > > > > written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names four > > > > children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next adjacent > > > > to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married again > > > > right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care for > > > > and no married child to live with. > > > > > > > > Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county records > > > > until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that John > > > > & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the fourth, > > > > was born in the 1680's. > > > > > > > > Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him to > > > > have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a > > > > total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the idea. > > > > > > > > Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" who > > > > traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged > > > > marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states "Thus > > > > far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is believed > > > > to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth > > > > Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, p.1]. > > > > Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got much > > > > of the information about this marriage and its descendants from Dennis > > > > R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the > > > > reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. > > > > > > > > The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of > > > > children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is > > > > given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the Winn > > > > Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account with > > > > Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be found. > > > > Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So the > > > > circle is complete. > > > > > > > > I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. > > > > > > > > Myles Johnson > > > > > > >

Hi All, I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. Hi All, The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & the LVA on this man. John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for John Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. The records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an excellent research library, just across from the CH. This county has a continuous series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, Cavaliers & Pioneers, v.1:366]. >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & Eliz. Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. 1:78]. 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to Mr. Henry Brett. [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by the Grand Jury. [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some propriety]. [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and doubtless more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the gap to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. The almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small farmer. There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say he died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for Cople parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not seen. But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, the youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a prominent and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] was written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names four children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next adjacent to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married again right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care for and no married child to live with. Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county records until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that John & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the fourth, was born in the 1680's. Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him to have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the idea. Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" who traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states "Thus far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is believed to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, p.1]. Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got much of the information about this marriage and its descendants from Dennis R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given …" and the reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the Winn Family …" (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account with Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be found. Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So the circle is complete. I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. Myles Johnson

So this John Winn who has been shown in the past to be married to Elizabeth Minor you feel was not married to her. and where others have said he was the child of a Thomas Winn you don't believe that is so also? Cuz B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > Hi Becky, > I really have no idea where this John Winn fits in. Certainly no idea of > his ancestry and I don't even see any evidence sufficient to identify a > family. The children assigned to him in the various and different > assortments in the published genealogies were, I think, attempts to > create a family that, in fact, never existed, not to deceive anyone but > just because some folks thought there must have been such a family. > > Sorry I can't be any more help than that. > > Myles Johnson > > ********************************************************* > > The Thill Group Inc wrote: > > > > Dear Myles, > > To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe John Winn's > > line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations before him > > an a couple after him? > > Cuz Becky > > ttg-inc@attbi.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> > > To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM > > Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland > > > > Hi All, > > I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an > > addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. > > > > Hi All, > > The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & the > > LVA on this man. > > > > John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. > > > > My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for John > > Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. The > > records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of > > Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an excellent > > research library, just across from the CH. This county has a continuous > > series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. > > > > 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, > > Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, Cavaliers & > > Pioneers, v.1:366]. > > > > >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: > > 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & Eliz. > > Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. > > 1:78]. > > > > 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to Mr. > > Henry Brett. > > [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. > > > > 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by the > > Grand Jury. > > [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some > > propriety]. > > [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. > > > > That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and doubtless > > more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. > > > > These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the gap > > to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. The > > almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on > > juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small farmer. > > > > There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign > > (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say he > > died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not > > unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years > > before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for Cople > > parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not > > seen. > > > > But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, the > > youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a prominent > > and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official > > (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement > > with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] was > > written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names four > > children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next adjacent > > to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married again > > right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care for > > and no married child to live with. > > > > Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county records > > until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that John > > & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the fourth, > > was born in the 1680's. > > > > Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him to > > have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a > > total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the idea. > > > > Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" who > > traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged > > marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states "Thus > > far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is believed > > to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth > > Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, p.1]. > > Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got much > > of the information about this marriage and its descendants from Dennis > > R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the > > reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. > > > > The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of > > children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is > > given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the Winn > > Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account with > > Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be found. > > Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So the > > circle is complete. > > > > I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. > > > > Myles Johnson > >

Dear Myles, To round this out, could you show us a chart on what you believe John Winn's line actually is? Could this chart show a couple of generations before him an a couple after him? Cuz Becky ttg-inc@attbi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: [WINN] John Winn of Westmoreland Hi All, I actually sent this report several days ago but apparently made an addressing error. Sorry. Hope it is useful. Hi All, The following is my summary of recent research in Westmoreland Co. & the LVA on this man. John Winn of Westmoreland Co.,Va. My goal here was to see what Westmoreland co. records do exist for John Winn, his alleged marriage to Elizabeth Minor, and for any children. The records on "John Winn" are meager. At Montross, the county seat of Westmoreland, the Westmld.Hist.Soc. has a little museum and an excellent research library, just across from the CH. This county has a continuous series of Order Books from 1653, as well as Wills, etc. 1657 - 'Jno. Winn' is one of 40 headrights claimed by Robert Vaulx, Merchant, for 2000 ac. of land in Westmoreland co. [Nugent, Cavaliers & Pioneers, v.1:366]. >From Order Books 1653-1721, transcribed by John F. Dorman: 1669 - John Winn is a witness for the sale of patent of George & Eliz. Richmond to Thomas Barrett. [Deeds & Pat. 1665-1677, Pt. 1:78]. 1670 - "Mr. Winn" is on a list of men whose debts were not paid to Mr. Henry Brett. [Ibid, Pt. II:5]. 1718 - John Winn, with others, is ordered to answer charges made by the Grand Jury. [Apparently for failing to attend church or otherwise offending some propriety]. [Order Bk 1705-1721, Pt. VII:74,77}. That's it. Dorman's series of transcriptions end in 1721 and doubtless more data could be gleaned from the later books available in the CH. These items seem to refer to the same man from 1657 to 1670 but the gap to 1718 seems to great to be the same man. Possible but unlikely. The almost complete absence of entries reflecting any service - ie.: on juries and involvement in court suits - suggests he was a small farmer. There is no will or estate administration; no marriage bond; no sign (except the 1718 item) of children. Many accounts of John Winn say he died in 1694. There is no sign of what this is based on but is not unreasonable, if he truly arrived in Virginia in 1657 or a few years before. There was no sign of a parish register or vestry book for Cople parish but the LVA does have a history publ. 1999 which I have not seen. But this John Winn surely could not have married Elizabeth Minor, the youngest daughter of John Minor (1652-1698). John Minor was a prominent and wealthy land-owner, tavern keeper, and public official (Under-sheriff; Jailor). Many record entries reflect his involvement with the largest land-owners. His will [Deeds & Wills No.2, p. 182] was written on 30 March 1698 and probated on 22 Feb. 1699. He names four children; Elizabeth Minor, the youngest, receives 200 ac "next adjacent to her sister Frances Minor's land". Her mother, "Ellenor" married again right away, in 1700, usually a sign that she had children to care for and no married child to live with. Nicholas Minor, John Minor's eldest, does not appear in county records until 1708 but is cited frequently thereafter. My estimate is that John & Ellenor Minor married abt. 1670-80, and that Elizabeth, the fourth, was born in the 1680's. Even if John Winn did not die in 1694, it is most unlikely for him to have become the husband of Elizabeth Minor. Age, social status, a total absence of any record of marriage --- nothing supports the idea. Many have cited William Avery Miner's " Descendants of John Minor" who traces both the Minor and Winn lines, beginning with this alleged marriage. But probably few have noted that Miner clearly states "Thus far there is no documentary proof of this marriage, but it is believed to be correct since John Winn is known to have married an Elizabeth Minor in Westmoreland county, Va., at that time". [Miner 1983, p.1]. Later, buried at the end among other sources is a note that he got much of the information about this marriage and its descendants from Dennis R. Wynn as FGS's for which "Sources of data are not given ." and the reader is referred to Mr. Wynn for any questions. 'Nuff said. The most likely propagator of this alleged marriage and a set of children is the well-intentioned but confused Dr. W.W. Smith, who is given as a source of this info by Dean F. Winn in his "Notes on the Winn Family ." (ca.1953), p.13. Dean Winn elected to start his account with Minor Winn as the first for whom a documentary record could be found. Good idea. Dennis Wynn sent me a xerox copy of Dean Winn's book. So the circle is complete. I'll be happy to discuss any aspect of this. Myles Johnson

Did I miss a posting or something....Myles did you solve the problem of John? Marilyn EAFerguson@aol.com wrote: >I just wanted to comment on Myles fine research regarding the mystery of John >Winn on Westmoreland Co. One of these days we will know the truth, and this >effort helps pin it down. > >Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night. > >Earl Earl >Atlanta > > >

I have heard that too! nice to have some history Hugs Cuz B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Winn, Del C" <del.c.winn@lmco.com> To: "'The Thill Group Inc'" <ttg-inc@attbi.com>; <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:21 PM Subject: RE: [WINN] Fw: Gwynn Wynne etc...? > How about this explanation... > > The area that the Wynn/Gwynn family came from is called Gwynedd (pronounced > wyneth...the "g" is almost silent). Gwynedd roughly means the land of white > or area of white. Those from Gwynedd were eventually called Gwynne and > since the G is silent, it was later written Wynne. > > Just a thought... > > -----Original Message----- > From: The Thill Group Inc [mailto:ttg-inc@attbi.com] > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 5:14 PM > To: WINN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [WINN] Fw: Gwynn Wynne etc...? > > > Below find Roy's second e-mail with lots of history and info!! Again welcome > Roy to our group. > > Cuz Becky > ttg-inc@attbi.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Roy > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 11:03 PM > Subject: Gwynn Wynne etc...? > > > Hi Becky, > Speedy return, Thankyou. > You can put me down for both ...I can always change later. Right now all I > wish is to somehow tie in with the American Wynne/Gwynn genealogy. I have > read the book called ''The House of Gwydir ' , Have you read it?. It is one > of the explanations of the various Gwynn / Wynne spellings. Apparently the > lord of the house of Gwydir married and had some kids and they were surnamed > Gwynn....after several years his wife died and he married his cousin....the > resulting children were named Wynne. Hense...the difference in name... I do > not know how authentic this book is but supplies one answer. Another > article I have read is the name Gwynn and where it originated. Apparently in > the long ago when France and England were at war there were a group of > Flemish ''Flanders' who were being persecuted by the ruling party. They > fled to England with the understanding that they were to gaurd the welsh > coast from France. Hense the groupings of the surname Gwynn / Wynne along > the Aberystwyth coast past Cardigan and onto St Davids and into Carmathon. > The people who came as immigrants were white skinned with blue eyes and > became known as the fair people or GWYNN / WYNNE. Another great tale but > not ever proved. It is my beleif that many Babtist and Quaker welsh fled > from the mid and eastern areas of wales and into Penn. and other areas. I > live in Canada where my father immigrated in 1928. His genealogy goes back 9 > generations to a Daniel Gwynn of llandissiloo Wales into London , Birmingham > , Malvern and Canada. I have the wills for all generations except one family > and of course...Daniel of llandissilio. > In Penn there should be records of Immigrants and where they lived. Any info > on this? The name Gwynn as in Tony Gwynn ... the ball player...was supposed > to have been from a slave family somewhere on Gwynns Island. When the slaves > were freed the people merely took the last name of the owners...another not > easily proven statement but interesting. Yes put me on both lists. Maybe > somewhere someone will fit the square hole or maybe I,ll fit their round > one. thanks, Roy Gwynn > > ______________________________ >

How about this explanation... The area that the Wynn/Gwynn family came from is called Gwynedd (pronounced wyneth...the "g" is almost silent). Gwynedd roughly means the land of white or area of white. Those from Gwynedd were eventually called Gwynne and since the G is silent, it was later written Wynne. Just a thought... -----Original Message----- From: The Thill Group Inc [mailto:ttg-inc@attbi.com] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 5:14 PM To: WINN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [WINN] Fw: Gwynn Wynne etc...? Below find Roy's second e-mail with lots of history and info!! Again welcome Roy to our group. Cuz Becky ttg-inc@attbi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Roy Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 11:03 PM Subject: Gwynn Wynne etc...? Hi Becky, Speedy return, Thankyou. You can put me down for both ...I can always change later. Right now all I wish is to somehow tie in with the American Wynne/Gwynn genealogy. I have read the book called ''The House of Gwydir ' , Have you read it?. It is one of the explanations of the various Gwynn / Wynne spellings. Apparently the lord of the house of Gwydir married and had some kids and they were surnamed Gwynn....after several years his wife died and he married his cousin....the resulting children were named Wynne. Hense...the difference in name... I do not know how authentic this book is but supplies one answer. Another article I have read is the name Gwynn and where it originated. Apparently in the long ago when France and England were at war there were a group of Flemish ''Flanders' who were being persecuted by the ruling party. They fled to England with the understanding that they were to gaurd the welsh coast from France. Hense the groupings of the surname Gwynn / Wynne along the Aberystwyth coast past Cardigan and onto St Davids and into Carmathon. The people who came as immigrants were white skinned with blue eyes and became known as the fair people or GWYNN / WYNNE. Another great tale but not ever proved. It is my beleif that many Babtist and Quaker welsh fled from the mid and eastern areas of wales and into Penn. and other areas. I live in Canada where my father immigrated in 1928. His genealogy goes back 9 generations to a Daniel Gwynn of llandissiloo Wales into London , Birmingham , Malvern and Canada. I have the wills for all generations except one family and of course...Daniel of llandissilio. In Penn there should be records of Immigrants and where they lived. Any info on this? The name Gwynn as in Tony Gwynn ... the ball player...was supposed to have been from a slave family somewhere on Gwynns Island. When the slaves were freed the people merely took the last name of the owners...another not easily proven statement but interesting. Yes put me on both lists. Maybe somewhere someone will fit the square hole or maybe I,ll fit their round one. thanks, Roy Gwynn ______________________________

Mary, The words "once removed" mean that there is a difference of one generation. For example, your mother's first cousin is your first cousin, once removed. This is because your mother's first cousin is one generation younger than your grandparents and you are two generations younger than your grandparents. This one-generation difference equals "once removed." Twice removed means that there is a two-generation difference. You are two generations younger than a first cousin of your grandmother, so you and your grandmother's first cousin are first cousins, twice removed. Relationship Charts Simplify Everything Happy Holidays! Randall (Randy) Clay Holmes

Dear Marilyn, Everyone is waiting for Myles to deliver for Christmas morn...[no pressure Myles ha ha ha] the following.... [he didn't promise a date I was just kidding] From: "Myles Johnson" <mylesj@his.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] George Wynne Hi Pat, I don't have the exact info on George but the Watkin Wm. Wynn line is probably correct. The John Winn=Eliz. Minor is not correct, as I have good reason to argue that there never was any such family. I just returned from a trip to Westmoreland Co. & Richmond (Lib. of Va) and have satisfied myself that the much-cited Winn-Minor marr. is a myth. I will be preparing a report to the list on this. Myles Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "robertlcapps" <robertlcapps@cox.net> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [WINN] Kudos to Myles > Did I miss a posting or something....Myles did you solve the problem of > John? > > Marilyn >

Could someone explain the difference in "first cousin once removed" and "second cousin". I have managed to confuse myself royally. Happy holidays to all. Regards, Mary Winn Anderson

Dear Mary, Your First cousin is your aunt/uncles child Your First cousin once removed is your first cousin's child Second cousin: is what two great grand daughter/sons are to each other If you go to this web page [my website] it shows the relationship chart... I got confuzzed like you many times so got a chart. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~ttg13/relationshipchart.html Cuz B ttg-inc@attbi.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "marywinn" <marywinn@cfl.rr.com> To: <WINN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:04 PM Subject: [WINN] Cousins--sort of off topic > Could someone explain the difference in "first cousin once removed" and "second cousin". I have managed to confuse myself royally. > > Happy holidays to all. > > Regards, > Mary Winn Anderson >

I just wanted to comment on Myles fine research regarding the mystery of John Winn on Westmoreland Co. One of these days we will know the truth, and this effort helps pin it down. Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night. Earl Earl Atlanta