I didn't mean to imply that the Germans from Germany were there. The native Dutch were Germanic ( Teutonic) people. The native Dutch mixed with the Spanish during the time the Netherlands ( including Belgium) was owned by the Spainish Hapsburgs and produced an ethnic group known as the "Black Dutch". They were found in the American colonies anywhere the Dutch setteled; New York, New Jersey, Penn , etc. Belgium was contolled by the Spanish from about 1500 until 1700 ( these dates are approximate. Will have to look it up) and was known as the Spanish Netherlands. Holland was owned by the Spanish for about 100 years from about 1500 until 1600. The race mixing that these messages refer to probably started in 17th century VA and other colonies as well. Most of the first settlers of Virginia were indentured servants from around London and the south and southwest of Virginia. Also, Africans originally were indentured servants in VA and didn't become actual slaves, although there wasn't a lot of difference, until some years later. There are many records of children born from unions ( not marriages) between the European indentured servants and the black indentured servants and by now a tremendous amount of people descend from them, although the percentage in the total genetic background of an individual can be very little. This mixture also included Indians who were also in some instances indentured servants. Indians both owned slaves and were slaves. Boe Williams I'm probably not making myself clear. If not I apologize. ----- Original Message ----- From: "N & K Chestnut" <nkopportunity@gorge.net> To: <williams-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [WILLIAMS-DNA] Boe - any dates ?? > Boe, any idea when the Germans were in Holland and the Spanish soldier joined them. Creating a Black Dutch people, before 1640, after 1740 ??? > > When & where might they have gone in the American colonies? > > Kay C. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Boe Williams > To: williams-dna@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:28 AM > Subject: Re: [WILLIAMS-DNA] Family Tree DNA - we do genetictestsforyourgenealogy questions! > > > The term "Black Dutch" has come to be associated with Melungeons, but it > originally refered to a swarthy ethnic group from the Netherlands who had no > connection with them. > > Holland was a Hapsburg possesion for a couple of hundred years during which > time, Spanish soldiers and sailors were stationed there and there was much > commerce between the two countries. Naturally there was intermarriage > between the native Germanic peoples and the Spanish which eventually > produced a swarthy ethnic strain in the Netherlands. When they migrated to > America, they were called "Black Dutch". > > Edwin L. "Boe" Williams > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "paul williams" <bossman9@gmail.com> > To: "Joyce Leo" <joyceleo@wildblue.net>; <williams-dna@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:25 PM > Subject: Re: [WILLIAMS-DNA] Family Tree DNA - we do genetic > testsforyourgenealogy questions! > > > > I remember my father and grandfather talking about there being "black > Dutch" > > in our ancestry. I think this was more to do with the Click family (G-GF > > Williams married a Click - an Americanization of the German Gluck) than > the > > Williams. I don't think black Dutch is necessarily the same thing as > > Melungeon (more like German gypsies), but both have come to be sort of > > umbrella terms for folks up in the hills who may have someone in their > > bloodline who was less than lily-white. I've read that there were both > negro > > and Turkish slaves who escaped and hid as far up in the hills as they > could > > get and married into Indian tribes. Once they began to breed with whites, > > the tendency was to try and marry whiter and whiter to obscure the > > non-European ancestry, partially out of fear that their land would be > taken > > away if they were designated as mulatto. Columbus not only employed > Turkish > > and Moorish sailors, he wrote on his fourth voyage of seeing a strange > > people on a ship that reminded him of the Moorish galleys he'd seen in the > > Mediterranean. The women were wearing veils. It's not outside of the realm > > of possibility that Muslims were here before he was. I thought this > article > > was interesting: > > http://geocities.com/Paris/5121/melungeon.htm > > I do have the "Melungeon bump" on the back of my head... > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Joyce Leo <joyceleo@wildblue.net> wrote: > > > > > The Cherokee intermarried all the time, and from an early time in > > > the history of the meetings of Cherokee maidens and white men who > > > came into their territory. Even Nancy Ward, the great and last > > > "Beloved Woman" of the Cherokee married a white man, and she was > > > no traitor to her people or their "constitution", which by the > > > way I don't think they had. Sequoyah introduced the Cherokee > > > alphabet to the entire Cherokee tribe in the 1820's and they had > > > their first printing press and publications in the late 1820's > > > and early 1830's, just as Andrew Jackson was drawing up expulsion > > > papers to rid the entire area of all the Indians. The > > > intermarriages took place in the 1600's, 1700's, 1800's and still > > > are taking place. The descendants of these intermarriages are > > > very plentiful today all over the country, "constitution" or no > > > constitution. I have plenty of Cherokee blood running in my > > > Williams line. > > > > > > Joyce Williams Leo > > > > > > -- > > "All the world's a stooge" > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WILLIAMS-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7 - Release Date: 3/8/2008 12:00 > AM > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WILLIAMS-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WILLIAMS-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7 - Release Date: 3/8/2008 12:00 AM > >

This post was extremely well put. You gave true history that is rarely mentioned. Diana Boe Williams <ccshoes@bellsouth.net> wrote: I didn't mean to imply that the Germans from Germany were there. The native Dutch were Germanic ( Teutonic) people. The native Dutch mixed with the

There were lots of darker individuals throughout Europe. However, the DNA data tends to support a early African presence in the Colonies as the source of the Mulattos in America. The four generation rule to be considered white originated in the British ruled Carribean Islands. A whole European-whole African mix was a Mulatto. A whole European-Mulatto mix was a Quadraroon. A whole European-Quadraroon mix was and Octaroon. The books of the day stated that after that, the children looked European. So, if you read the early book about racial laws in America from the early 1800s--and you can read them yourself on google books for free--you were considered to be a free colored until you were four generations removed from the original African ancestor. The Indians were not considered to be free colored and were not counted in the early census records. Race was determined by the enumerator not the individual being enumerated. So, if someon was listed as free colored or mulatto, they were considered to be less than four generations removed from an full African ancestor. So, it may be that many of the free colored or mulatto individuals living in the Southeast may have been descendents of those African who were brought to America as indentured servant swho were freed after 20 years. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Boe Williams" <ccshoes@bellsouth.net> To: <williams-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [WILLIAMS-DNA] Boe - any dates ?? >I didn't mean to imply that the Germans from Germany were there. The native > Dutch were Germanic ( Teutonic) people. The native Dutch mixed with the > Spanish during the time the Netherlands ( including Belgium) was owned by > the Spainish Hapsburgs and produced an ethnic group known as the "Black > Dutch". They were found in the American colonies anywhere the Dutch > setteled; New York, New Jersey, Penn , etc. > > Belgium was contolled by the Spanish from about 1500 until 1700 ( these > dates are approximate. Will have to look it up) and was known as the > Spanish > Netherlands. Holland was owned by the Spanish for about 100 years from > about 1500 until 1600. > > The race mixing that these messages refer to probably started in 17th > century VA and other colonies as well. Most of the first settlers of > Virginia were indentured servants from around London and the south and > southwest of Virginia. Also, Africans originally were indentured servants > in > VA and didn't become actual slaves, although there wasn't a lot of > difference, until some years later. There are many records of children > born > from unions ( not marriages) between the European indentured servants and > the black indentured servants and by now a tremendous amount of people > descend from them, although the percentage in the total genetic background > of an individual can be very little. This mixture also included Indians > who > were also in some instances indentured servants. Indians both owned slaves > and were slaves. > > Boe Williams > > I'm probably not making myself clear. If not I apologize. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "N & K Chestnut" <nkopportunity@gorge.net> > To: <williams-dna@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 11:02 PM > Subject: Re: [WILLIAMS-DNA] Boe - any dates ?? > > >> Boe, any idea when the Germans were in Holland and the Spanish soldier > joined them. Creating a Black Dutch people, before 1640, after 1740 ??? >> >> When & where might they have gone in the American colonies? >> >> Kay C. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Boe Williams >> To: williams-dna@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:28 AM >> Subject: Re: [WILLIAMS-DNA] Family Tree DNA - we do > genetictestsforyourgenealogy questions! >> >> >> The term "Black Dutch" has come to be associated with Melungeons, but >> it >> originally refered to a swarthy ethnic group from the Netherlands who > had no >> connection with them. >> >> Holland was a Hapsburg possesion for a couple of hundred years during > which >> time, Spanish soldiers and sailors were stationed there and there was > much >> commerce between the two countries. Naturally there was intermarriage >> between the native Germanic peoples and the Spanish which eventually >> produced a swarthy ethnic strain in the Netherlands. When they migrated > to >> America, they were called "Black Dutch". >> >> Edwin L. "Boe" Williams >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "paul williams" <bossman9@gmail.com> >> To: "Joyce Leo" <joyceleo@wildblue.net>; <williams-dna@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [WILLIAMS-DNA] Family Tree DNA - we do genetic >> testsforyourgenealogy questions! >> >> >> > I remember my father and grandfather talking about there being "black >> Dutch" >> > in our ancestry. I think this was more to do with the Click family > (G-GF >> > Williams married a Click - an Americanization of the German Gluck) > than >> the >> > Williams. I don't think black Dutch is necessarily the same thing as >> > Melungeon (more like German gypsies), but both have come to be sort >> of >> > umbrella terms for folks up in the hills who may have someone in >> their >> > bloodline who was less than lily-white. I've read that there were >> both >> negro >> > and Turkish slaves who escaped and hid as far up in the hills as they >> could >> > get and married into Indian tribes. Once they began to breed with > whites, >> > the tendency was to try and marry whiter and whiter to obscure the >> > non-European ancestry, partially out of fear that their land would be >> taken >> > away if they were designated as mulatto. Columbus not only employed >> Turkish >> > and Moorish sailors, he wrote on his fourth voyage of seeing a >> strange >> > people on a ship that reminded him of the Moorish galleys he'd seen >> in > the >> > Mediterranean. The women were wearing veils. It's not outside of the > realm >> > of possibility that Muslims were here before he was. I thought this >> article >> > was interesting: >> > http://geocities.com/Paris/5121/melungeon.htm >> > I do have the "Melungeon bump" on the back of my head... >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Joyce Leo <joyceleo@wildblue.net> > wrote: >> > >> > > The Cherokee intermarried all the time, and from an early time in >> > > the history of the meetings of Cherokee maidens and white men who >> > > came into their territory. Even Nancy Ward, the great and last >> > > "Beloved Woman" of the Cherokee married a white man, and she was >> > > no traitor to her people or their "constitution", which by the >> > > way I don't think they had. Sequoyah introduced the Cherokee >> > > alphabet to the entire Cherokee tribe in the 1820's and they had >> > > their first printing press and publications in the late 1820's >> > > and early 1830's, just as Andrew Jackson was drawing up expulsion >> > > papers to rid the entire area of all the Indians. The >> > > intermarriages took place in the 1600's, 1700's, 1800's and still >> > > are taking place. The descendants of these intermarriages are >> > > very plentiful today all over the country, "constitution" or no >> > > constitution. I have plenty of Cherokee blood running in my >> > > Williams line. >> > > >> > > Joyce Williams Leo >> > >> > >> > -- >> > "All the world's a stooge" >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> WILLIAMS-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> > Checked by AVG. >> > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7 - Release Date: 3/8/2008 > 12:00 >> AM >> > >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WILLIAMS-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WILLIAMS-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7 - Release Date: 3/8/2008 >> 12:00 > AM >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WILLIAMS-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >