Here are some thoughts that I had about the comment. DNA is just a tool. It will never actually tell you whether you are a Williams or not. Because DNA mutations are random, it is possible for two individuals to have the same DNA markers but be totally unrelated. Likewise, two individuals could have very different markers but be closely related. These two cases are unlikely if the two individuals share the same family name, but it is still possible. In centuries past, it was common (as it is today) to have orphans or adopted children or stepchildren living in the household. My personal belief is that this accounts for some of the problems that our group has been having in matching individual DNA to specific family groups. -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Williams [mailto:stickamw@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 12:12 AM To: WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Williams-DNA] Need to Share Some Feedback and my Responses Y'all... I am a dreamer. I am certain that I can do the impossible, which is to please everyone all the time. Once in a while, I am brought back to earth by folks. I received an email (quoted below) from a person and while everyone is free to have their own opinions, I felt that I had to address this persons thoughts. Why am I posting this here, you may ask? Because I said some terse things in my reply and I didn't want any of them to be "grapevined" later on, so I thought the best course would be to place my exact response here in the forum so there would be no questions about my reply. I guess I am just trying to use a little forethought just in case this garners some bad publicity. Here is the email I received in response to an information email I sent to folks who aren't usuals to either the mailing list or the forums: Quote "Hello Adrian. (I am assuming this is not an automated communication.) Frankly, I haven't bothered to log onto the items you address because I am basically unhappy with the results I have obtained from this enterprise. I have a graduate degree and a good concept of statistical analysis, but I can make little sense of the reports to date. What I expected was a statement to the effect that my ancestors came from such and such a place at such and such and such a time. NOT that x numbers of people whose DNA matches mine THINK their ancestors came from somewhere. And every communication is a pitch for more money. Thanks, but I think not." And, here is my reply: "I am saddened by your email...why haven't you brought these to me sooner? I try my best to answer every email I receive and honestly do not recall ever hearing these issues. However, if you'll permit me, I like to respectfully address your thoughts. To be fair, all of the documentation both on my website and the FTDNA's website makes no secret that the testing will not give you results like you are seeking...there simply is no way to extrapolate that kind of information from a human cell. To my knowledge, nowhere in the hallowed halls of science can that capability be found. Aside from mass exhumations, how would we possibly have DNA samples from our early ancestors to compare with? The testing very specifically identifies, by means of comparing two different peoples DNA signature, cases in which two people are recently related, or more specifically related in a reasonable timeframe that genealogical documentation may be located to identify the relationship. And because you are educated and have an understanding of statistics, I would expect that you could understand the fact that the very best we can do, for now, is determine genetic mutations between KNOWN and documented related cousins and generate mutation rate probabilities based on those genetic differences. I don't feel that your characterization of what the matching tells us is very fair and could be offensive to some. I am very anal when it comes to my own research...everything is questioned, sources are documented and notes are double and triple checked. Only then do I ever feel comfortable saying I am certain about my information. To cast 15 years of very meticulous work in the light of it all being a 'guess' or I "think [my] ancestors came from somewhere" is grossly shortsighted. I use myself as an example, but most of our participants put the same level of effort into their own work. And, because you are only looking for that very specific tidbit, you are possibly missing a mountain of other information. To be more specific, it is thru this testing that I was able to finally figure out where a long lost branch of my early family went. The brother of my 5th-ggrandfather went missing around 1800. Thanks to the testing, we now know that he indeed ended up in Georgia. We know this thru a combination of careful and skillful research combined with comparing test samples between myself and a documented descendant of that line. And, again in my line, the testing helped prove a branch of the family wasn't related to the family after all...the researcher was wrong. In a nutshell, the testing is more of a compass rather than a GPS locator. It is meant to help guide you, not do your research for you. And on a more personal note, as far as "every communication is a pitch for more money", I apologize if that is how it has come across. To date, I believe there have been only three monetary topics in the project. 1.) the project donation fund, 2.) assistance with the 1st DNA conference and 3.) the cost of the TNG software. 1.) The donation fund was setup 2 years ago (at the encouragement of the project participants) as a tool for folks to help out fellow genealogists. It is a charitable action and yes, I have quite often had a sentence or two in my correspondences to help out if possible...but you'll be hard pressed to even find an occasion where I have made a hard sell of the fund. What's so wrong with that? 2.) The DNA conference - the project decided that the administrator should attend the annual conference and pitched in the funds to cover the costs so I didn't have to come out of pocket for the whole thing. You should note that I didn't even bring up this past years conference to the group... 3.) Shoot me. I didn't have a job...had a new baby and simply couldn't scrape together the $35 bucks or so for the software. Otherwise I would have paid for it myself and no one would have been the wiser. In the end, there is a very important aspect to this that a number of people have brought up, but a topic I usually shy away from. I make nothing from this venture. I have DONATED what easily exceeds 1000 hours of my personal time and energy to this enterprise and so I think I have earned the right to encourage folks to be generous. I started this project 3 and a half years ago and have pocketed exactly NOTHING for all my work. Heck, I haven't even had to ask for a dime for the very real costs of running the site...thanks to another genealogist, who is not even involved with the project. So, I would ask that before you get ill about my "pitches" you consider how much you've had to spend in this enterprise (aside from the actual cost of the test, which I have no part of) and compare that to both what you are getting in return as well as how it compares to money spent in other aspects of genealogy. It is my sincerest hope that you'll take another look at the project, your testing and how your research might be furthered by this pioneering work that we are doing. And, as always, I am available for any questions you my have." Kindest regards, Adrian ==== WILLIAMS-DNA Mailing List ==== Williams DNA Project Information and Results - http://williams.genealogy.fm/. If anyone has any problems with the list, please email the moderator (Adrian Williams) directly at stickamw@earthlink.net ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Adrian put on one of your many hats. Swallow the lump of salt And keep coming at us. He/She has already wished a thousand times they had never sent the nasty note. I understand their frustration, but I have never found any thing in life that is handed to you on a silver platter. Never fear all the group is on your side for so many hard hours you put in. My bitch is I think we should see a new picture of the new baby.......jr. > Y'all... > > I am a dreamer. I am certain that I can do the impossible, which is > to > please everyone all the time. Once in a while, I am brought back to > earth > by folks. I received an email (quoted below) from a person and > while > everyone is free to have their own opinions, I felt that I had to > address > this persons thoughts. > > Why am I posting this here, you may ask? Because I said some terse > things > in my reply and I didn't want any of them to be "grapevined" later > on, so I > thought the best course would be to place my exact response here in > the > forum so there would be no questions about my reply. I guess I am > just > trying to use a little forethought just in case this garners some > bad > publicity. > > Here is the email I received in response to an information email I > sent to > folks who aren't usuals to either the mailing list or the forums: > > > > Quote > > "Hello Adrian. (I am assuming this is not an automated > communication.) > Frankly, I haven't bothered to log onto the items you address > because I am > basically unhappy with the results I have obtained from this > enterprise. I > have a graduate degree and a good concept of statistical analysis, > but I > can make little sense of the reports to date. What I expected was > a > statement to the effect that my ancestors came from such and such a > place > at such and such and such a time. NOT that x numbers of people > whose DNA > matches mine THINK their ancestors came from somewhere. And every > communication is a pitch for more money. Thanks, but I think not." > > > And, here is my reply: > > "I am saddened by your email...why haven't you brought these to > me > sooner? I try my best to answer every email I receive and honestly > do not > recall ever hearing these issues. However, if you'll permit me, I > like to > respectfully address your thoughts. > > To be fair, all of the documentation both on my website and the > FTDNA's > website makes no secret that the testing will not give you results > like you > are seeking...there simply is no way to extrapolate that kind of > information > from a human cell. To my knowledge, nowhere in the hallowed halls of > science > can that capability be found. Aside from mass exhumations, how would > we > possibly have DNA samples from our early ancestors to compare with? > > The testing very specifically identifies, by means of comparing > two > different peoples DNA signature, cases in which two people are > recently > related, or more specifically related in a reasonable timeframe that > genealogical documentation may be located to identify the > relationship. > > And because you are educated and have an understanding of > statistics, I > would expect that you could understand the fact that the very best > we can > do, for now, is determine genetic mutations between KNOWN and > documented > related cousins and generate mutation rate probabilities based on > those > genetic differences. > > I don't feel that your characterization of what the matching > tells us is > very fair and could be offensive to some. I am very anal when it > comes to > my own research...everything is questioned, sources are documented > and notes > are double and triple checked. Only then do I ever feel comfortable > saying > I am certain about my information. To cast 15 years of very > meticulous > work in the light of it all being a 'guess' or I "think [my] > ancestors came > from somewhere" is grossly shortsighted. I use myself as an example, > but > most of our participants put the same level of effort into their own > work. > > And, because you are only looking for that very specific tidbit, > you are > possibly missing a mountain of other information. To be more > specific, it is > thru this testing that I was able to finally figure out where a long > lost > branch of my early family went. The brother of my 5th-ggrandfather > went > missing around 1800. Thanks to the testing, we now know that he > indeed > ended up in Georgia. We know this thru a combination of careful and > skillful research combined with comparing test samples between > myself and a > documented descendant of that line. And, again in my line, the > testing > helped prove a branch of the family wasn't related to the family > after > all...the researcher was wrong. > > In a nutshell, the testing is more of a compass rather than a GPS > locator. It is meant to help guide you, not do your research for > you. > > And on a more personal note, as far as "every communication is a > pitch > for more money", I apologize if that is how it has come across. To > date, I > believe there have been only three monetary topics in the project. > 1.) the > project donation fund, 2.) assistance with the 1st DNA conference > and 3.) > the cost of the TNG software. > > 1.) The donation fund was setup 2 years ago (at the > encouragement of the > project participants) as a tool for folks to help out fellow > genealogists. > It is a charitable action and yes, I have quite often had a sentence > or two > in my correspondences to help out if possible...but you'll be hard > pressed > to even find an occasion where I have made a hard sell of the fund. > What's > so wrong with that? > > 2.) The DNA conference - the project decided that the > administrator > should attend the annual conference and pitched in the funds to > cover the > costs so I didn't have to come out of pocket for the whole thing. > You should > note that I didn't even bring up this past years conference to the > group... > > 3.) Shoot me. I didn't have a job...had a new baby and simply > couldn't > scrape together the $35 bucks or so for the software. Otherwise I > would have > paid for it myself and no one would have been the wiser. > > In the end, there is a very important aspect to this that a > number of > people have brought up, but a topic I usually shy away from. I make > nothing > from this venture. I have DONATED what easily exceeds 1000 hours of > my > personal time and energy to this enterprise and so I think I have > earned the > right to encourage folks to be generous. I started this project 3 > and a half > years ago and have pocketed exactly NOTHING for all my work. Heck, > I > haven't even had to ask for a dime for the very real costs of > running the > site...thanks to another genealogist, who is not even involved with > the > project. So, I would ask that before you get ill about my "pitches" > you > consider how much you've had to spend in this enterprise (aside from > the > actual cost of the test, which I have no part of) and compare that > to both > what you are getting in return as well as how it compares to money > spent in > other aspects of genealogy. > > It is my sincerest hope that you'll take another look at the > project, > your testing and how your research might be furthered by this > pioneering > work that we are doing. And, as always, I am available for any > questions you > my have." > > Kindest regards, > Adrian

I joined the project a couple of years ago and it seemed forever before I got a match. The fist match (24/25) and I couldn't find the paper trail, but agreed that there must be a tie someplace. About 2 months ago I got another 24/25 match, and this time we had the link that was missing via a family bible. Without the DNA project it is very unlikely I would have ever found my GGGG Grandfather. Now both of us are working on proving the next generation, and if we can nail that one down, it takes us back two more generations in Wales. I certainly think that this result was worth the small investment. I'm very thankful to Adrian and the other volunteers who give their time and energy to making this work. I'm retired and would never be able to produce such a great web site as Adrian has done. It's true we don't say thanks often enough, but here's mine - THANKS! Lynda Cook

I belong also to the Henley List because my grand father Robert Williams married Leona Henley. Here is some more information concerning the various markers. There is a 67 marker. http://www.familytreedna.com/ Bobbye Williams Davis

Hi Bobbye, Which Williams of Newton Co., MS do you descend from? I also descend from Williams of Newton Co., but our DNA doesn't match yours. (There were also some Williams [not my line] who intermarried with the Harris family in Newton Co.) Catherine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bobbye Davis" <bobbye@microsped.com> To: <WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 11:18 AM Subject: [Williams-DNA] Forgaging Ahead on our Research > Amen Adrian, > Every one this list would love to be handed the Silver Bullet of where > exactly we came from and who that first ancestor is. > > I was just thrilled beyond measure when my line connected to the gentleman > that I had been working with for almost three years. This was the first > positive proof that we were indeed related by a common ancestor. We are > still searching for that next generation back. A lot of us have been stuck > in the late 1700 to early 1800's for a long time now. We keep hoping that > one clue will surface at tie the next generation back. I thank God for > letting me make contact with that "new" cousin in Ga. He has been a God > send > in this research with his tireless efforts of finding that next clue. I > know > that the rest of my family members were happy about this too. I take my > books to the Family Reunion every year for them to pour over and see who > is > hanging on the tree that is new. > > I appreciate all of the efforts of every one of these researches on the > web > site and also the Administrator Adrian. With out this web site some of us > would still be grappling in the dark. > > We understand your frustration about not being able to tie it all > together. > Every one of us have been there and done that. But we don't let it stop > us. > We keep looking because we know that that one little piece of Evidence can > pop up at any time. I am not discouraged on mine. I have been researching > my > Williams family since 1998. that is a short period of time compared to > most. > I have found that my Williams Family was not always good at keeping > records. > I have been searching for years for the marriage of my grandfather and > grand > mother Williams. The only thing I can think is that when the Newton Co. > Ms. > Records burned theirs was in it. My grand father once told my Aunt that he > and my grand mother got married in the county where they obtain their > divorces. I found his divorce in Lauderdale Co. Ms. with his first wife > but > did find his and my grand mother's marriage there either. I still can't > find > her divorce from her second husband who abandoned her when she was > expecting > their child. The first husband was killed in a logging accident. > > I am also a Quimby,Dansby and Henley in my dad's side. We are in the > process > now of doing the Henley DNA. I am hoping that the gentleman in Tx. that I > correspond with and the lady in Ms. will turn out to be my great > grandfather's line. > > I have been blessed a lot on my Mom's lines because so many before me had > searched her Graham and Craig lines back to Scotland. I have wonderful > history on my family in those lines. However her maiden name was Smith and > you know how hard that is to research especially since my ggg grandfather > died in the Mexican War and little is known about him. > > At this time I now have about 20,000 family members in my data base with > the > combined members of my mother and father's lines. > > Since you are educated maybe you could offer some points for the rest of > us > that we may be overlooking in our research. > > Bobbye > > > ==== WILLIAMS-DNA Mailing List ==== > Williams DNA Project Information and Results - > http://williams.genealogy.fm/. If anyone has any problems with the list, > please email the moderator (Adrian Williams) directly at > stickamw@earthlink.net > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

I think my response did not go to the mailing list so I'm trying again, and apologize if it's duplicated... I'm afraid that if DNA could state for us as the email indicated "What I expected was a statement to the effect that my ancestors came from such and such a place at such and such and such a time. " that it would cost thousands and thousands of dollars and no one such as I could afford it. How many of us would not willing pay that kind of money to actually get to the root of it all in a matter of minutes, with proof of where, when, how our ancestors came to be? I have not had any results personally that I could quite understand from the DNA results but I have only done the first 25 marker test and have not been able to afford to upgrade yet. I not only research my own Williams line as many of you know but I also research a friend's "Sherrod Williams and Mary Ann "Polly" Looney" line as well. Both lines are progressing ever so slowly. We have looked into a professional genealogist (to the tune of hundreds of dollars just to START with no guarantees of course) and have not been able to generate enough interest in a fund to start that right now. I know hundreds of us would spend thousands if we won the lottery to find out the information we crave.I have personally "Pushed" for more volunteer donation funding for this project and will continue to do so in the future (such as when there was a match per dollar of each donation given). I think it helps a lot of people disprove or prove lines they are currently chasing and eventually could pin point where a professional genealogist should search further, but no, it's not an exact method that will tell us what place or what time our ancestors are from" If only.... If it did, as I stated, it would cost thousands of dollars and then this obsessive hobby would have a lot less people in it, because no one could afford to join in. Just like the free sits such as rootsweb (that allows this mailing list) it allows us to get some information free, some information at a low cost and a lot of information we would not have otherwise. DNA testing is a step in the right direction on finding our ancestors, it's not the final destination. I know all about volunteering your time and how sometimes you would LOVE to say "Okay you want me to print more pictures for you this week, how about some of the cost of the ink and paper?" or "I've spent four nights this week on the phone helping you with that, boy I wish I charged for this service!!!" If people like you and I did charge, Adrian, we'd have at least a comfortable bank account. Instead we volunteer because we want to. If someone occasionally pitches a little funding for something we are doing, BLESS THEM! If someone occasionally takes part of our cost away when we are without a job or regular income, again, BLESS THEM! I know you could not have gone to the conference comfortably without help and I'm SURE you spent some of your own money along the way, as well, to go. Just don't let the complainers in life get you down. I try to remember that myself. The ones that NEVER EVEN THANK ME for work done sometimes gets me feeling like I shouldn't do it for the next person, Thank God I still do, and you as well Adrian. BLESS YOU! for all your hard work and PLEASE PLEASE keep up the good work! I have not had a lot of time in the past year to work on my genealogy due to my husband's chemo-therapy treatment for Hep C and my Ebay Business but when I get the chance to do so again, believe me the information I have gotten from the DNA as well as your site and the myfamily.com sites I'm a part of will be a tremendous HELP in going in the right direction. Thanks Again, Adrian for everything you do! Sincerely, Doris E. Williams-Keefer Myfamily .com administrator for The Williams Database Project, Sherrod Williams Researchers Site, Taber Researchers Site, The Birchfield Family site, etc etc

Amen Adrian, Every one this list would love to be handed the Silver Bullet of where exactly we came from and who that first ancestor is. I was just thrilled beyond measure when my line connected to the gentleman that I had been working with for almost three years. This was the first positive proof that we were indeed related by a common ancestor. We are still searching for that next generation back. A lot of us have been stuck in the late 1700 to early 1800's for a long time now. We keep hoping that one clue will surface at tie the next generation back. I thank God for letting me make contact with that "new" cousin in Ga. He has been a God send in this research with his tireless efforts of finding that next clue. I know that the rest of my family members were happy about this too. I take my books to the Family Reunion every year for them to pour over and see who is hanging on the tree that is new. I appreciate all of the efforts of every one of these researches on the web site and also the Administrator Adrian. With out this web site some of us would still be grappling in the dark. We understand your frustration about not being able to tie it all together. Every one of us have been there and done that. But we don't let it stop us. We keep looking because we know that that one little piece of Evidence can pop up at any time. I am not discouraged on mine. I have been researching my Williams family since 1998. that is a short period of time compared to most. I have found that my Williams Family was not always good at keeping records. I have been searching for years for the marriage of my grandfather and grand mother Williams. The only thing I can think is that when the Newton Co. Ms. Records burned theirs was in it. My grand father once told my Aunt that he and my grand mother got married in the county where they obtain their divorces. I found his divorce in Lauderdale Co. Ms. with his first wife but did find his and my grand mother's marriage there either. I still can't find her divorce from her second husband who abandoned her when she was expecting their child. The first husband was killed in a logging accident. I am also a Quimby,Dansby and Henley in my dad's side. We are in the process now of doing the Henley DNA. I am hoping that the gentleman in Tx. that I correspond with and the lady in Ms. will turn out to be my great grandfather's line. I have been blessed a lot on my Mom's lines because so many before me had searched her Graham and Craig lines back to Scotland. I have wonderful history on my family in those lines. However her maiden name was Smith and you know how hard that is to research especially since my ggg grandfather died in the Mexican War and little is known about him. At this time I now have about 20,000 family members in my data base with the combined members of my mother and father's lines. Since you are educated maybe you could offer some points for the rest of us that we may be overlooking in our research. Bobbye

Dear Adrian: My only comment concerning the complaint you got. Science and DNA will prove again this person could not possibly be a WILLIAMS. Have you tried matching his results with with the JERK family? Keith Williams

Keith, LOL! That is hilarious! And much needed...I've actually been sweating it a bit. I usually don't get cross with folks via email and have a bit of regret for sending the reply I did...everyone is entitled to their own... BTW, lunch sounds good to me! I am here at the office usually from 8-6 and can take lunch whenever. What's good for you? Adrian -----Original Message----- From: KipSr@aol.com [mailto:KipSr@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:23 AM To: WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Williams-DNA] Need to share etc. Dear Adrian: My only comment concerning the complaint you got. Science and DNA will prove again this person could not possibly be a WILLIAMS. Have you tried matching his results with with the JERK family? Keith Williams ==== WILLIAMS-DNA Mailing List ==== Williams DNA Project Information and Results - http://williams.genealogy.fm/. If anyone has any problems with the list, please email the moderator (Adrian Williams) directly at stickamw@earthlink.net ============================== View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx

Dear Adrian - Thank you for sharing this with the list. Just so that everyone will know, I am the one who first encouraged the group to help send you to the first DNA Conference. I just thought it would be a nice gesture for us to make for all the work that you had done to date. Certainly, no one was "pressured" to send you money. We just did it. I think we were rewarded many, many times over for the small amounts that we sent. If we don't want to contribute to the DNA fund, we certainly have not been pressured to do so. I, for one, am most grateful for all the hours you have "donated" to this endeavor. I have a cousin who helps to sponsor another DNA family group; and she, too, spends countless hours helping other people. My group has interacted and discovered places where we connect and places that we must research. We have pitched in and helped each other which is what it is all about. Please know that most of us out here do not feel this way. Thank you, Nancy Williams Edwards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Williams" <stickamw@earthlink.net> To: <WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:12 PM Subject: [Williams-DNA] Need to Share Some Feedback and my Responses > Y'all... > > I am a dreamer. I am certain that I can do the impossible, which is to > please everyone all the time. Once in a while, I am brought back to earth > by folks. I received an email (quoted below) from a person and while > everyone is free to have their own opinions, I felt that I had to address > this persons thoughts. > > Why am I posting this here, you may ask? Because I said some terse things > in my reply and I didn't want any of them to be "grapevined" later on, so > I > thought the best course would be to place my exact response here in the > forum so there would be no questions about my reply. I guess I am just > trying to use a little forethought just in case this garners some bad > publicity. > > Here is the email I received in response to an information email I sent to > folks who aren't usuals to either the mailing list or the forums: > > > > Quote > > "Hello Adrian. (I am assuming this is not an automated communication.) > Frankly, I haven't bothered to log onto the items you address because I > am > basically unhappy with the results I have obtained from this enterprise. > I > have a graduate degree and a good concept of statistical analysis, but I > can make little sense of the reports to date. What I expected was a > statement to the effect that my ancestors came from such and such a place > at such and such and such a time. NOT that x numbers of people whose DNA > matches mine THINK their ancestors came from somewhere. And every > communication is a pitch for more money. Thanks, but I think not." > > > And, here is my reply: > > "I am saddened by your email...why haven't you brought these to me > sooner? I try my best to answer every email I receive and honestly do not > recall ever hearing these issues. However, if you'll permit me, I like to > respectfully address your thoughts. > > To be fair, all of the documentation both on my website and the FTDNA's > website makes no secret that the testing will not give you results like > you > are seeking...there simply is no way to extrapolate that kind of > information > from a human cell. To my knowledge, nowhere in the hallowed halls of > science > can that capability be found. Aside from mass exhumations, how would we > possibly have DNA samples from our early ancestors to compare with? > > The testing very specifically identifies, by means of comparing two > different peoples DNA signature, cases in which two people are recently > related, or more specifically related in a reasonable timeframe that > genealogical documentation may be located to identify the relationship. > > And because you are educated and have an understanding of statistics, I > would expect that you could understand the fact that the very best we can > do, for now, is determine genetic mutations between KNOWN and documented > related cousins and generate mutation rate probabilities based on those > genetic differences. > > I don't feel that your characterization of what the matching tells us is > very fair and could be offensive to some. I am very anal when it comes to > my own research...everything is questioned, sources are documented and > notes > are double and triple checked. Only then do I ever feel comfortable > saying > I am certain about my information. To cast 15 years of very meticulous > work in the light of it all being a 'guess' or I "think [my] ancestors > came > from somewhere" is grossly shortsighted. I use myself as an example, but > most of our participants put the same level of effort into their own work. > > And, because you are only looking for that very specific tidbit, you are > possibly missing a mountain of other information. To be more specific, it > is > thru this testing that I was able to finally figure out where a long lost > branch of my early family went. The brother of my 5th-ggrandfather went > missing around 1800. Thanks to the testing, we now know that he indeed > ended up in Georgia. We know this thru a combination of careful and > skillful research combined with comparing test samples between myself and > a > documented descendant of that line. And, again in my line, the testing > helped prove a branch of the family wasn't related to the family after > all...the researcher was wrong. > > In a nutshell, the testing is more of a compass rather than a GPS > locator. It is meant to help guide you, not do your research for you. > > And on a more personal note, as far as "every communication is a pitch > for more money", I apologize if that is how it has come across. To date, > I > believe there have been only three monetary topics in the project. 1.) the > project donation fund, 2.) assistance with the 1st DNA conference and 3.) > the cost of the TNG software. > > 1.) The donation fund was setup 2 years ago (at the encouragement of > the > project participants) as a tool for folks to help out fellow genealogists. > It is a charitable action and yes, I have quite often had a sentence or > two > in my correspondences to help out if possible...but you'll be hard pressed > to even find an occasion where I have made a hard sell of the fund. What's > so wrong with that? > > 2.) The DNA conference - the project decided that the administrator > should attend the annual conference and pitched in the funds to cover the > costs so I didn't have to come out of pocket for the whole thing. You > should > note that I didn't even bring up this past years conference to the > group... > > 3.) Shoot me. I didn't have a job...had a new baby and simply couldn't > scrape together the $35 bucks or so for the software. Otherwise I would > have > paid for it myself and no one would have been the wiser. > > In the end, there is a very important aspect to this that a number of > people have brought up, but a topic I usually shy away from. I make > nothing > from this venture. I have DONATED what easily exceeds 1000 hours of my > personal time and energy to this enterprise and so I think I have earned > the > right to encourage folks to be generous. I started this project 3 and a > half > years ago and have pocketed exactly NOTHING for all my work. Heck, I > haven't even had to ask for a dime for the very real costs of running the > site...thanks to another genealogist, who is not even involved with the > project. So, I would ask that before you get ill about my "pitches" you > consider how much you've had to spend in this enterprise (aside from the > actual cost of the test, which I have no part of) and compare that to both > what you are getting in return as well as how it compares to money spent > in > other aspects of genealogy. > > It is my sincerest hope that you'll take another look at the project, > your testing and how your research might be furthered by this pioneering > work that we are doing. And, as always, I am available for any questions > you > my have." > > Kindest regards, > Adrian > > > > > > > > ==== WILLIAMS-DNA Mailing List ==== > Williams DNA Project Information and Results - > http://williams.genealogy.fm/. If anyone has any problems with the list, > please email the moderator (Adrian Williams) directly at > stickamw@earthlink.net > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

Y'all... I am a dreamer. I am certain that I can do the impossible, which is to please everyone all the time. Once in a while, I am brought back to earth by folks. I received an email (quoted below) from a person and while everyone is free to have their own opinions, I felt that I had to address this persons thoughts. Why am I posting this here, you may ask? Because I said some terse things in my reply and I didn't want any of them to be "grapevined" later on, so I thought the best course would be to place my exact response here in the forum so there would be no questions about my reply. I guess I am just trying to use a little forethought just in case this garners some bad publicity. Here is the email I received in response to an information email I sent to folks who aren't usuals to either the mailing list or the forums: Quote "Hello Adrian. (I am assuming this is not an automated communication.) Frankly, I haven't bothered to log onto the items you address because I am basically unhappy with the results I have obtained from this enterprise. I have a graduate degree and a good concept of statistical analysis, but I can make little sense of the reports to date. What I expected was a statement to the effect that my ancestors came from such and such a place at such and such and such a time. NOT that x numbers of people whose DNA matches mine THINK their ancestors came from somewhere. And every communication is a pitch for more money. Thanks, but I think not." And, here is my reply: "I am saddened by your email...why haven't you brought these to me sooner? I try my best to answer every email I receive and honestly do not recall ever hearing these issues. However, if you'll permit me, I like to respectfully address your thoughts. To be fair, all of the documentation both on my website and the FTDNA's website makes no secret that the testing will not give you results like you are seeking...there simply is no way to extrapolate that kind of information from a human cell. To my knowledge, nowhere in the hallowed halls of science can that capability be found. Aside from mass exhumations, how would we possibly have DNA samples from our early ancestors to compare with? The testing very specifically identifies, by means of comparing two different peoples DNA signature, cases in which two people are recently related, or more specifically related in a reasonable timeframe that genealogical documentation may be located to identify the relationship. And because you are educated and have an understanding of statistics, I would expect that you could understand the fact that the very best we can do, for now, is determine genetic mutations between KNOWN and documented related cousins and generate mutation rate probabilities based on those genetic differences. I don't feel that your characterization of what the matching tells us is very fair and could be offensive to some. I am very anal when it comes to my own research...everything is questioned, sources are documented and notes are double and triple checked. Only then do I ever feel comfortable saying I am certain about my information. To cast 15 years of very meticulous work in the light of it all being a 'guess' or I "think [my] ancestors came from somewhere" is grossly shortsighted. I use myself as an example, but most of our participants put the same level of effort into their own work. And, because you are only looking for that very specific tidbit, you are possibly missing a mountain of other information. To be more specific, it is thru this testing that I was able to finally figure out where a long lost branch of my early family went. The brother of my 5th-ggrandfather went missing around 1800. Thanks to the testing, we now know that he indeed ended up in Georgia. We know this thru a combination of careful and skillful research combined with comparing test samples between myself and a documented descendant of that line. And, again in my line, the testing helped prove a branch of the family wasn't related to the family after all...the researcher was wrong. In a nutshell, the testing is more of a compass rather than a GPS locator. It is meant to help guide you, not do your research for you. And on a more personal note, as far as "every communication is a pitch for more money", I apologize if that is how it has come across. To date, I believe there have been only three monetary topics in the project. 1.) the project donation fund, 2.) assistance with the 1st DNA conference and 3.) the cost of the TNG software. 1.) The donation fund was setup 2 years ago (at the encouragement of the project participants) as a tool for folks to help out fellow genealogists. It is a charitable action and yes, I have quite often had a sentence or two in my correspondences to help out if possible...but you'll be hard pressed to even find an occasion where I have made a hard sell of the fund. What's so wrong with that? 2.) The DNA conference - the project decided that the administrator should attend the annual conference and pitched in the funds to cover the costs so I didn't have to come out of pocket for the whole thing. You should note that I didn't even bring up this past years conference to the group... 3.) Shoot me. I didn't have a job...had a new baby and simply couldn't scrape together the $35 bucks or so for the software. Otherwise I would have paid for it myself and no one would have been the wiser. In the end, there is a very important aspect to this that a number of people have brought up, but a topic I usually shy away from. I make nothing from this venture. I have DONATED what easily exceeds 1000 hours of my personal time and energy to this enterprise and so I think I have earned the right to encourage folks to be generous. I started this project 3 and a half years ago and have pocketed exactly NOTHING for all my work. Heck, I haven't even had to ask for a dime for the very real costs of running the site...thanks to another genealogist, who is not even involved with the project. So, I would ask that before you get ill about my "pitches" you consider how much you've had to spend in this enterprise (aside from the actual cost of the test, which I have no part of) and compare that to both what you are getting in return as well as how it compares to money spent in other aspects of genealogy. It is my sincerest hope that you'll take another look at the project, your testing and how your research might be furthered by this pioneering work that we are doing. And, as always, I am available for any questions you my have." Kindest regards, Adrian

Hm. Online chat. An option to think about if it doesn't get enough participation, or even if it does: a monthly or biweekly podcast. :-) Seriously. Might even be easier than the chat--both technically and in terms of time commitment--and it would be reusable. "The Genealogy Guys" do a regular and informative, if toned down, general genealogy podcast, but there seem to be none at all centered on genetic genealogy...I just looked last week. Newsweek had a "Health Beat" podcast on January 31 that dealt with genetic genealogy, but it was a one-timer and has already rolled off iTunes. Adrian hates me because I always come up with bizarre ideas from way out in left field. But, hypothetically... In-line recorders for telephones are dirt cheap. My Polycom conference phone has an auxiliary recorder jack built in. Direct-to-MP3 software is also dirt cheap; I use one called Audio Mid Recorder...modest feature set, but it works. Record your podcasts solo or, more interestingly, get on a conference call and do it as a regular tandem, like The Genealogy Guys, and/or invite guests to interview. I have no doubt you could get Bennett; and David Faux, the president of Ethnoancestry; and Thomas Shawker, the chair of the NGS Family Health and Heredity Committee; and Megan Smolenak; and a bunch more. Easy to test the waters, because you don't have to set a regular schedule to start. Just plan and record one or two and see how it goes. I'll volunteer to help any way I can; I have a little radio experience from way back when. By the way, for those who don't know--which I imagine is most of you--the current issue of the Randolph County (NC) Genealogical Society Journal carries an article about DNA testing by...ta da! Adrian Williams. It's the featured piece in this always-informative journal edited by Larry W. Cates. You can visit the Randolph County Genealogical Society--and join or purchase back issues of the Journal--at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~ncrcgs/ Nice article, Adrian! --Hughes -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Williams [mailto:stickamw@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 4:00 PM To: WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Williams-DNA] Another piece of information and a question... Y'all, I thought I was done with the last email, but alas...t'was only dreaming! I have just discovered an aggrivating error that I thought I would pass along to everyone. I have just downloaded the latest version of Internet Explorer (version 7, beta 2) and have been testing it out only to discover that it completely hoses the DNA project results table. I have sent a bug report to the Microsoft team and am awaiting their response. In the interim, IE 6 and Firefox still work cleanly. The question I have is this: Your feedback is very valuable to me, so I have been toying with the idea of adding a real-time chat module to the website with the primary purpose being a weekly "chat" session, to answer questions, gripe, talk about new ideas, etc. In other words, for example, every Wed nite, I would make myself available from 7-9pm to host a session about whatever topic(s) folks would like to talk about. Would this be something that y'all would be interested in doing or am I spinning my wheels? As always, Adrian ==== WILLIAMS-DNA Mailing List ==== Williams DNA Project Information and Results - http://williams.genealogy.fm/. If anyone has any problems with the list, please email the moderator (Adrian Williams) directly at stickamw@earthlink.net ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Y'all, I thought I was done with the last email, but alas...t'was only dreaming! I have just discovered an aggrivating error that I thought I would pass along to everyone. I have just downloaded the latest version of Internet Explorer (version 7, beta 2) and have been testing it out only to discover that it completely hoses the DNA project results table. I have sent a bug report to the Microsoft team and am awaiting their response. In the interim, IE 6 and Firefox still work cleanly. The question I have is this: Your feedback is very valuable to me, so I have been toying with the idea of adding a real-time chat module to the website with the primary purpose being a weekly "chat" session, to answer questions, gripe, talk about new ideas, etc. In other words, for example, every Wed nite, I would make myself available from 7-9pm to host a session about whatever topic(s) folks would like to talk about. Would this be something that y'all would be interested in doing or am I spinning my wheels? As always, Adrian

Hey everyone! I hope this finds everyone doing well in your corner of the world. Things here have been a bit crazy but better than the beginning of the year! I wanted to take a moment or three and pass along a bit of information. I am in the process of getting the latest results updated on the site and should have those done either tonight or tomorrow. There are some new matches as well as a bunch of kit expansion results that have come in. I have been working with a number of folks on the TNG pedigree module of the website. They have been offering some great suggestions for improvements which I have been incorporating like mad. A couple of high points are: --> the GEDCOM upload page is streamlined with less options to confuse folks! --> data on living folks is now suppressed for EVERYONE, registered users and lurkers alike. --> the Browse all Trees function has been tweaked to show only those trees with data in them. --> in the next results page update, particiapnts who have uploaded their data to the TNG module are now directly linked to their TNG pedigree (when clicking on the participants name in the table). I also have a couple of requests. First, it is really important that folks send me a short description of their ancestry so that I can add it to your tree description. Folks, this is what lurkers are going to read when trying to see if their family is in the project...I cannot over-empasize how important this could be in finding new participants. Also, when creating a GEDCOM to be uploaded to the module, please be sure to be selective...include only descendants of your earlies Williams ancestor versus your entire tree. I am going to create a 'how-to' section in the TNG Forums area for instructions on how to create GEDCOMs in each of the different packages out there. I will write the one for Family Tree Maker but will need others to contribute steps for the others such as Legacy, PAF, etc. I am a bit intrigued by the very low rate of use regarding the pedigree module. To date, only 6 people, other than myslef, have uploaded their data to the module. I would genuinely like to know if y'all have any gripes, worries or compaints about it that may be precluding your use of it. On a daily basis, I usually get at least 1 or 2 emails from people wanting to know if their lineage is represented in the project and because of the large number of participants (286 as of today) I cannot remember them all. This is one of the driving reasons I put the work into getting this module up and running. I have tried to make the module as easy to use as possible both in regards to loading GEDCOM data as well as surfing through the data. One thing I am also working on is compiling a list of participants who are not subscribed to either this mailing list or the Forums. With this list, I am going to send them an email, informing them of all the recent changes and additions to the website and to encourage them to get active in the Forums/TNG modules. And, in my spare time, I am still working on ironing out all the bugs that the new website version has created and will hopefully have everything stable here shortly. As always, Adrian

Y'all, Well, things have been incredibly hectic lately but the time away from home has given me the opportunity to keep working on the pedigree module and thanks to Doris, who provided a test run this afternoon, I think it is time to unveil the module and get to work. There is a lot of information I need to get out to everyone so bear with me. Before I get going on the instructions, the link on the DNA Project webpage (for DNA Project Lineages) now points to the index page of the pedigree module (call TNG). Click on this link to begin the process. First, I know there was plenty of discussion and hoping that I would be able to tie the logins from the Forums module to the logins for the TNG module. I have the program code and with some time, could rewrite the necessary code to do this. However, the last few weeks have been crazy hectic and I really don't want to put off the TNG implementation any longer. The first step is to register a new user account in the TNG module. For sake of ease, you can use the same login information that you have used on the forum. On the TNG index page, click on the "Register a New User Account" link on the left. Complete the requested information and submit it. This will send me an email to activate your account. After everything, I figured it would be best to do this by hand to keep non-participants from being able to post anything to this area. Once I get this email, I will go out and activate your account and drop you an email. The next step, once you receive my confirmation, is to login to the site. Visit the TNG index page and click on "Log On" an enter the login information you setup in your registration. Also, tp make things easier, you can click on the checkbox to "Stay logged in on this computer" and you will only have to login one time...it will remember you every time you come back. Then, you will be returned to the index page. Now...I would like you to take a minute to click on the "Posting Your Pedigree" link under the "information" section on the right hand side. This is little something I put together to help everyone upload their pedigree information. Doing this is pivitol on being able to create a GEDCOM from your data. If you have trouble with this, you can let me know or put a posting on Forum for help. I am sure there will be bugs to iron out, but bear with me...my schedule is a bit weird these days and it may take me a couple of days to get back to you. I am working on the "Using This Module" link but it isn't quite yet completed. Also, I am steadily working on getting the various trees setup in the module...but have a ways to go yet. Again, please be patient with me...I am working on them daily. It is a completely manual process and takes a bit of time to get done. And, when you have a chance, please send me a description of your tree...use the "Browse the Pedigrees" link and check out the ones that are already there. Finally, a couple of possible concerns some folks have. First, information on living folks. I have setup the system to automatically privatize information on living folks. You should also be able to do this when you create your GEDCOM. Also, I have chosen to include the kit's point of contact email address in the tree information. This was a topic that was discussed a long time back and the decision was made by the group to make email addys available to folks. A key point is that you will not have to worry about being spammed from this site. These email addys are kept in a database and cannot be accessed by the various nefarious spiders that crawl the web harvesting addys. To get a good idea of what you can expect, before you load your information, simply perform a search on me! In the upper left hand corner, put in my name and search. It will pull up one entry...mine! Click on my name and spend a few minutes looking around. And, do this both logged in as well as logged out. This will help give you an idea of what non-participants will be able to see versus registered participants. I will be continuously working on getting all of this finished and configured and appreciate in advance your patience in the process of it. And, as always, if anyone has any problems, concerns, etc, please don't hesitate to contact me! As always, Adrian Adrian Williams Williams DNA Project Administrator

Thanks!! As always, Adrian Adrian Williams Williams DNA Project Administrator Williams Source Documentation Repository http://williams.genealogy.fm/ -----Original Message----- From: MaryFernS@aol.com [mailto:MaryFernS@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 11:54 AM To: WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Williams-DNA] Re: WILLIAMS-DNA-D Digest V06 #43 Dear Adrian, You are a marvel!! This is a beautiful site. Mary Fern Souder ==== WILLIAMS-DNA Mailing List ==== Williams DNA Project Information and Results - http://williams.genealogy.fm/. If anyone has any problems with the list, please email the moderator (Adrian Williams) directly at stickamw@earthlink.net ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Dear Adrian, You are a marvel!! This is a beautiful site. Mary Fern Souder

Adrian - I think this will be a great help to all of us searchers. Just let us know when you are ready for us to begin our submissions. Nancy Williams Edwards Group 8 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Williams" <stickamw@earthlink.net> To: <WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 11:48 PM Subject: [Williams-DNA] Get a Sneak Peek at the DNA Pedigrees Module!! > Y'all, > > I know I have talked a lot about the pedigrees module for the website > but > haven't yet unveiled it. It thought you might be interested in getting a > peek at where I am at with it as well as have a chance to take it for a > spin > to see all the possibilities!! > > Before I give you the link...a couple of words: not all the links work > yet. I am still rewriting portions of the module code to get it set up > for > our purposes and so not everything is functioning yet. > > I have uploaded my own GEDCOM file to give you a family tree to poke > around with...the best way to get to it from the index page is to either > click on "Surnames" or actually perform a search. A good one to do would > be > my ancestor, Roger Williams (ca. 1650). Click on his name and you will > get > all the information I have loaded about his family. > > Again, keep in mind that I am still working on getting this out together > so it runs correctly for our project, so bear with me...it's a bit of a > challenge to rewrite portions of someone elses software (ahh...one of the > beauties of open source!!) > > Here is the link: > > http://williams.genealogy.fm/TNG_DNA/index.php > > As always, > Adrian > > Adrian Williams > Williams DNA Project Administrator > Williams Source Documentation Repository > http://williams.genealogy.fm/ > > > > > > ==== WILLIAMS-DNA Mailing List ==== > Williams DNA Project Information and Results - > http://williams.genealogy.fm/. If anyone has any problems with the list, > please email the moderator (Adrian Williams) directly at > stickamw@earthlink.net > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

Y'all, I know I have talked a lot about the pedigrees module for the website but haven't yet unveiled it. It thought you might be interested in getting a peek at where I am at with it as well as have a chance to take it for a spin to see all the possibilities!! Before I give you the link...a couple of words: not all the links work yet. I am still rewriting portions of the module code to get it set up for our purposes and so not everything is functioning yet. I have uploaded my own GEDCOM file to give you a family tree to poke around with...the best way to get to it from the index page is to either click on "Surnames" or actually perform a search. A good one to do would be my ancestor, Roger Williams (ca. 1650). Click on his name and you will get all the information I have loaded about his family. Again, keep in mind that I am still working on getting this out together so it runs correctly for our project, so bear with me...it's a bit of a challenge to rewrite portions of someone elses software (ahh...one of the beauties of open source!!) Here is the link: http://williams.genealogy.fm/TNG_DNA/index.php As always, Adrian Adrian Williams Williams DNA Project Administrator Williams Source Documentation Repository http://williams.genealogy.fm/

Y'all, This is an excellent question and discussion and I actually have a very good answer for you, since Group 7 is my group and I am acutely aware of what's going on between the two! I am going to move this to the Forums so that this information can get captured there. The answer to the question actually represents one of the key reasons for the DNA testing and I don't want it to get lost in the rootsweb archives...I think it is important to keep it visible for future needs. As always, Adrian Adrian Williams Williams DNA Project Administrator Williams Source Documentation Repository http://williams.genealogy.fm/ -----Original Message----- From: David Jones [mailto:drdjones@hughes.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:48 PM To: WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: {not a subscriber} RE: [Williams-DNA] question On problem with that interpretation is that no one knows the true mutation rate for any line in any family. So, it is theoretically possible that 2-4 mutations could occur in the 200-600 year range. So, someone with a 3-step difference could actually be closely related or even not related at all. If the parties share the same last name, then it is more likely they are related than if they do not share the same last name. Theoretically, two individuals could have the same y-dna markers but be totally unrelated. Again, this is unlikely if they share the same last name. You have to look closely at the probability charts. If you set a 95% probability requirement for the relationship, then there is only a 1 in 20 chance that the presumed relationship will be wrong. David -----Original Message----- From: Hughes Williams [mailto:hughes_williams@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 12:08 AM To: WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [Williams-DNA] question Just tossing in my two cents: The DNA values aren't a misprint. Adrian receives those from FTDNA and imports them into the table; no manual typing. That leaves only one option: one of the two groups has its genealogy wrong. Either incorrect research or a "non-paternity event" has occurred in one of the lines. --Hughes Williams Williams DNA Project Group 22 -----Original Message----- From: Phil Williams [mailto:tatanka69@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:02 PM To: WILLIAMS-DNA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Williams-DNA] question Adrian, I was looking through the different lines. I found something that makes me scratch my head. How do the groups 7 and 38 go back to the same individual, but the numbers are different!! Is this a missprint? Thanks, Phillip (group2) ==== WILLIAMS-DNA Mailing List ==== Williams DNA Project Information and Results - http://williams.genealogy.fm/. If anyone has any problems with the list, please email the moderator (Adrian Williams) directly at stickamw@earthlink.net ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx ==== WILLIAMS-DNA Mailing List ==== Williams DNA Project Information and Results - http://williams.genealogy.fm/. If anyone has any problems with the list, please email the moderator (Adrian Williams) directly at stickamw@earthlink.net ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx