The idea of Dioceses holding on to their records just so's their local heritage centre can make money rises it's ugly head regularly in the newsgroups. People begin to rant and rave and shout and scream at one another when it does so. There are those who believe that it would be possible for 'volunteers' to go to the Irish records, read through them, transcribe them, put them onto CD's and make them nice and easily available to everyone. I would like to put some facts before you all. I would appreciate it if nobody from any newsgroup decided to challenge me though any newsgroup on what I have to say. By challenge I mean be derogatory in any manner or means. To disagree with me, come up with other facts from the literature, discuss what I have to say - yes. I simply set my browser to delete all mail from any people who chose the derogatory and through a newsgroup path. I find that many people jump to conclusions before they have even half read a mail - they don't let what is being said sink in and reply to what they think they see. So, I would ask you to read this twice before discussing it. I guess I am aiming mainly at those who seek Catholic records, but it also applies to records of other Faiths. - -------------------------------------------- The ecclesiastical term Parochia (written in the Greek alphabet) means a collection of many houses or of many tillage's under a pastor who serves them in a religious sense, and which is called the parochial church. During the first four ages of the Christian Church, it does not appear that parishes or their pastors were generally established. However, in the time of the Emperor Constantine, in nearly all the great towns of the Roman Empire churches had been founded, and priests were appointed to govern them. In after times, the erection, the rights, the revenues and the administration of parishes, being matters of discipline were regulated by canon law. Thomassin: 'Discipline de l'Eglise', premiere partie: liv. i., 21-22. - ----------------------------------------------------- Both parishioners and parishes are described as parochi by Horace Satira: Lib. i., v - --------------------------------------------------------- We all see references to parishes - both civil and Ecclesiastical, we all see references to where the Parish records for this place or that place can be found. Few realise that the boundaries of RC parishes do/did not equate to those of Civil parishes, everyone says in the genealogical literature that the COI parish boundaries equate to those of Civil parishes. Everyone will go looking for parish records for that civil parish - maybe not everyone but the majority. There are some who understand the genealogy books, some who can find what they are looking for simply by using Mitchels genealogical Atlas of Ireland which shows the Civil parishes in any county. Those of you who succeed using simply Mitchell and the various listings of Parish records which you see in the literature are the lucky ones. Those of you whose ancestors lived in boundary areas and not within a place which was either a 'Fair town' or a main town or somewhere mentioned say for example in Lewis's Dictionary are the unlucky ones........ Those of you who do not have access to historical sources, who use only an odd genealogical book - you don't really know what to look for. People go to the IrlIreland Atlas - a wonderful site looking for where this place or that place in Ireland is...... and you can't find it.... but your ancestors left Ireland prior to 1851 and I think it is the 1851 census placenames that the IrlAtlas project uses. Place names changed between the various censuses. Spellings changed from time to time also. There is no one volume which brings the synonyms (different names) of any one county together. There is no one volume (not even grenham's latest) which properly explains the parochial system or where records are to be had to anyone. There are no listings of Parochial or church records which actually tell you which townlands are referred to in any parish records. There are no listings which tell you how many churches were actually in an area at any given time. The latest produced by PRONI lists all the records which exist for every church in northern Ireland of every religion, it also lists those records which exist in the 26 counties on microfilm in the RCB library as far as I remember. it is the most detailed and best source of references I have seen to date. Every library should have a copy of it. However, even it does not tell you which townlands were involved....which parishes were united to other parishes and when. For that you have to go back to Lewis - and Lewis was produced in 1837 (?) or thereabouts. Reproduced over the last few years. A mention of a parish - I made a post last night in which I said that I believe that people would mention the Civil parish they originated in - not the religious. Civil was bound into more things. Those of you who have found information that you are looking for in a Catholic parish of a name which your ancestors mentioned - I would bet that the RC parish is also part of a civil parish of the same name. if a statistical analysis was made of answers to this question I think that it would still be civil regardless of how many found differently. Now - sources of information - parish records. if I look at grenhams first edition of his tracing your ancestors I note that at the front of this book he lists and maps RC parishes and the earliest records for any parish; at the back of this book he lists Church of Ireland parish records in the Dublin RCB library. In his next and most recent edition he lists and maps again the Catholic Parishes - but here he details the records held for each 'Church'. The maps have the same parishes listed as per the original volume, the church names have a reference to some other place if it is linked somehow to that parish for example Abbeyleix & Ballyroan in co. Laois is given as one church name but drawn up as the parish of Abbeyleix. Ballyroan is actually a separate town to Abbeyleix. grenham shows that the Ballyragget records are listed under Kilkenny. how many then would know which townlands were linked to this parish? again, dealing with Co. laois because that is the one I am most familiar with: if I look at grenham he lists Rathdowney as an RC parish. Maps it and all. he gives the date for records from Rathdowney - they begin in the late 1700's. But if I go to lewis - he tells me that the Civil parish of Rathdowney is in the RC union or district of Grogan, comprising this and the parishes of Donoughmore, Skeirke, Coolkerry and Rathsaran - and that it has three chapels - located in Rathdowney, Grogan and Killismista. Now - I know that if I go to the irlAtlas it tells me that Grogan is in the parish of Rathsaran and I know that if I go back to grenham he will not list any records for the parishe of Grogan or Rathsaran. I know that there is a Protestant church in Rathsaran....I know that I used to go to mass in a church out in Grogan...I know that on my OS map there is a graveyard shown for Grogan (and for all the walking I've done I can't find it!!). and if I wasn't me, but was one of you who doesn't know htat Rathdowney, Rathsaran, Skeirke, Coolderry and Grogan are all within walking distance of one another - who's going to tell me to go to the records for Rathdowney - that i might find what i am looking for there. Even if I was a protestant - and went into Rathdowney instead of to the church in Rathsaran - who's going to tell me to check out the Rathdowney records? or vice versa. To make an attempt to shut myself up here - what this post is all about is to say to people that First: if parish records were ever transcribed by well meaning volunteers or even people paid to do it - i wouldn't trust them at all. if I look at my original transcriptions of stones in graveyards - the first few months I was at it - and then what I had to do re corrections when I went back....and compare teh amount of correcting I have to do on any graveyard from work I would do today........I laugh. in the beginning i made so many mistakes it is incredible. I've had 'helpers' as well.......and anything they've ever done is laughable as well......other than the work of a 7 year old child who was being so careful it was wonderful. if I look at what i see on the griffiths CD compared to what i would see when I take a look at teh same records from the orignal microfilm - it can be rubbish. Maybe the name might be correct, but so many times it would have you all looking for somewhere you will never find anywhere because of mistakes in placenames. In other words - anyone who ever takes on something like parish records has to be experienced in transcribing records, had to know their geography, how to read the old script, how to be very careful with making sure that they write what is actually there and not what they are guessing at......has to take *time* at what they do. has to know something about phonetics Regularly we all see references from people who have had others read parish records for them and who have been told that the info is not there - and then when they look at these records themselves - they find what they are looking for - because they are *interested * in doing the job properly. There is no solution to the problem of records, there is no way that I can see that they could be transcribed correctly. there is no actual format to records, they began and were taken by religious who were interested in their parishioners before it was decided that it would be a regular thing. there are no markers to show you where you might possibly find records, checking out maps to try and find where the churches were in relation to the townland you are interested in does not really work - not unless you can compare maps from every 50 years or so and work out which ones were built when - then you have to be able to guess which ones were ruins back in the mid 1800's....though Lewis makes mention of these. What I could see as being a possible building towards locations of records is if it could be done through the newsgroups - through the county web pages. Who would organize it - take on responsibility, encourage subscribers to follow through I don't know. If people were to inform a newsgroup of what film they had looked at to try and find someone - once they have a place - and if they find people from that place on that film. if they told the newsgroup what the condition of the film was, easy to read or hard, ink faded, script bad. Gradually a larger picture could be built up of records from any county - forget about dioceses and all those other names of divisions. If the place name was mentioned - the film number - then maybe those who come along in the future would find it easier to track their ancestors, find their information in those registers which they would never have thought to look in. The older divisions, phonetically different placenames could all be linked up in one county page. Jane