I do apologise! a Martha and a Thomas Westall NOT on same page as the Franklins in City Gardens, Finsbury. Charles Westall abt 1831 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Elizabeth Westall abt 1827 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Harriet Westall abt 1801 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire James Westall abt 1836 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Maria Westall abt 1837 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Martha Westall abt 1826 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Sophia Westall abt 1840 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Thomas Westall abt 1801 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Virgin Westall abt 1838 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Living in Cow Lane, East Ilsley HO107/14/6 Folio: 9 Page: 12 Next door but one household is a David Franklin, 15, Shoe m apt ( shoe makers apprentice??) The christening and marriage of Ann Westall and William Franklin was also in East Ilsley. There is a connection there somewhere! Margaret ----Original Message Follows---- From: "margaret wilkinson" <margaretjanew@hotmail.com> To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Caroline Westall b 1834 and other London Westall's Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:33:08 +0100 Mick and Bob, it's nice to have the discussion open again re this branch of Westall family. I contacted the list earlier this week about my problems with 1841 census images, now resolved. I have had a search for my Westall family in 1841 with no luck. Looking for Thomas Westall born c 1807 +/- wife Maria (nee Burden or Franklin, see later), and son Thomas John Westall born 1833 St Giles, London There were over 30 Thomas Westall/Westell's listed, but none seem to fit in with what I know, tough I found your John Westall and family fairly quickly, Mick. I was hoping to find a sibling or two for Thomas junior, but with incorrect ages, no place of birth and no relationships shown, it is much more difficult to 'find' people than in any other census. I will have another look at some stage; try some different spellings, abbreviations, etc. I am not sure if I mentioned it before, but I have been told by Josie, an elderly Westall relative, that my Great grandparents, Arthur Westall and Jane Bigmore Brigden, had 2 children who did not survive infancy. Josie's mother was Rhesus negative and she 'assumes' that this may be the reason for their early deaths. 2 likely candidates from BMD records are Arthur George Westall, born and died Dec qtr 1887, and George Westall, birth registered Dec qtr 1889 (no death reg found, but also cannot find in 1901 census). My grandfather Thomas Brigden Westall was first-born 22 April 1885 and Josie's mother, Ure Mary Jane Westall, was born child no 4, born 1896. A 5th child, Arthur John Westall was born Jun qtr 1901, died Dec qtr 1901, buried in same grave as his father, Arthur Westall and brother, Thomas Brigden Westall in Mitcham, Surrey. Arthur John apparently died from milk intolerance at age of 8 months; the family even went as far as buying a goat to give him milk! All 3 of those deaths (if Josie has her facts correct) would be so easily avoidable nowadays. The two boys who died in London possibly buried somewhere with other 'London' Westall rels, no details found as yet. BTW Mick, you mention that 'The previous generation of Margaret's line does not seem to show any likely link either.' I have been unable to find out any info re John Westall and Martha Davis, other than what is in your online tree. I have provisional death registration records for them, but have not had enough confidence in them to send for the certificates!! If they are correct, they should also appear in 1841 census, no convincing candidates so far, but then, I have no idea of when or where they were born, or John's occupation! These are the refs Death Marylebone Westall John Mar qtr 1847 Vol 1 p190 Deaths Bloomsbury WESTALL Martha Sep qtr 1844 Vol 1 p54 or Death St Giles Westall Martha Mar qtr 1848 Vol 1 p63 A possible resolution of the Maria Franklin/Burden question 1851 census Thomas Westall, Head, Widr, M, 45, Shoemaker, Berks, Reading Thomas Westall, Son, M, 17, Printer, Middx, St Giles Edmund Franklin, Nephew, Widr, M, 21, Shoemaker, Middx, St Giles Living at 56, Dudley Street, St Giles in the Fields, Finsbury HO 107/1509 Folio 389 p12 Edmund Franklin in 1841 census possibly shown as son of William and Ann Franklin William Franklin, M, 50, Painter I, N Ann Franklin, F, 40, N Ann Franklin, F, 15, N Edmund Franklin, M, 7, N Emma Franklin, F, 4, N Francis Franklin, M, 2, N Living in City (?) Gardens, St Mary's Islington, Finsbury HO 107/664/2 Folio 18 p2 There is a Martha and a Thomas Westall on the page as well (but not the ones I am looking for, unfortunately!) I have just found the following marriage found in IGI Ann Westall Christening: 29 MAR 1761 East Ilsley, Berkshire, England Spouse: William Franklin Marriage: 03 JAN 1785 East Ilsley, Berkshire, England Record submitted after 1991 by a member of the LDS Church. Obviously, the ages of William, Ann and Edward are not right on 1841 census, but I think there may be a connection if I dig a little deeper. As for Maria Burden, following refs found for her surname IGI MARIA BURDEN THOMAS WESTALL Marriage: 30 OCT 1831 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London, England Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record Pallotts Marriage Index Name: Maria Burden Spouse: Thos Westall Marriage Date: 1831 Parish: St Anne, Soho Regards to all, I'll carry on searching, Margaret ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Michael Westall" <l.m.westall@btinternet.com> To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Caroline Westall b 1834 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:00:18 +0100 Many thanks Bob, for your very interesting information. I agree with you, the details are definitely of my Carolyn and her sisters. In 1881, 62 Willes Road is where other members of the family were living and it all ties up. I am very surprised at her marriage - I wonder where ? I will have to look at the 1901 census, I haven't got round to it yet. Thinking again about Margaret Wilkinson's information of 23 April, I am sure there must be a tie up with the Reading Westalls somewhere - Dudley Street, Kentish Town is the street that my family were in at the same time but at number 67. Also my Henry Westall, although born (1882) in Kentish Tn, went to live in Reading for most of his life - why Reading? I guess the key is my John Westall's birth. I cannot locate this anywhere, I think there must be wrong or incomplete information on the 1841,1851 and 1861 census, but even allowing for this I can find no record of anyone around his assumed birth date (1811 - 1813) with a similar name and details. I have been looking since 1975 !! The previous generation of Margaret's line does not seem to show any likely link either. Any further thoughts will be gratefully received. Keep up the good work ! Mick ----- Original Message ----- From: "bobatbmw" <bobatbmw@cox.net> To: <WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:43 AM Subject: Caroline Westall b 1834 >Mick, > >I checked your family on www.rootsweb.com and it still shows Caroline (b >1834 Bloomsbury, London, Eng) with no husband. > >The other day while checking in the 1841 census I got curious about >Caroline >and did some further looking. Her father died before the 1871 Census, but >Caroline did show in the 1871 Census living with her mothoer. In rootsweb >Free BMD I found a Caroline Westall marrying a Samuel Henry Gatehouse (b >1845 in Mere, Wiltshire) in the first quarter of 1872 in Pancras, London, >Eng. I tried to find them in the 1881 and the 1891 census but I had no >luck. I did find them in the 1901 Census and to me the proof was that >Sarah >and Elizabeth Westall were both living with them and Westall sisters were >still Artificial Flower Makers! > >There is a variance in Caroline's age but Samuel was 11 years younger and I >thought she had not been totally candid with her much younger husband! > >Ironically, I have looked and looked trying to find Samuel in an earlier >census and thereby his family but I have not been able to come up with a >clue on him? > >Do you have any thoughts on the above? > >Bob > >Here are my notes on Samuel Henry Gatehouse: > >Taken from the 1891 British Census > >Name: Samuel H Gatehouse >Age: 56 >Estimated birth year: abt 1845 >Relation: Head >Gender: Male >Where born: Mere, Wiltshire, England >Civil parish: St Pancras >Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas Kentish Town >County/Island: London >Country: England >Street address: 8 Willes Road >Occupation: Retired Dairyman >Condition as to marriage: Married >Employment status: Retired >Source information: RG13/152 >Registration district: St Pancras >Sub-registration district: Kentish Town >ED, institution, or vessel: 1 >Folio: 15 >Page: 21 >Household schedule number: 141 > >Samuel H. Gatehouse Head..M..56..Retired Dairyman...........Wilts, Mere >Caroline >Wife...M..60......................................London, Bloomsbury >Sarah Westall .........S..58..Artificial Flower >Mounter..London, Bloomsbury >Elizabeth .........S..47..Artificial Flower >Mounter..London, Bloomsbury >################################# > >