Carmen, I have looked in my data base to try to see where your Thomas may fit in the Westall family. If possible could you send me a copy of your Thomas' hand written will. It might give me more insight? I am including what I have as of now in my data base relevant to your Thomas Westall b 1818. It does not preclude your Thomas from being a son of the Benjamin Westall family but it does not say he is either. Wow! There are so many questions as ever and so few answers! :-) What I have is not etched in stone as we all know. Please review the following and let me know your thoughts! Bob Descendants of Thomas Westall Generation No. 1 1. THOMAS1 WESTALL was born 1818 in Chiswick, Middlesex, Eng, and died Aft. 1901 in Middlesex, Eng. He married (1) ELIZABETH SWAIN Abt. 1836 in Middlesex, Eng. She was born 1813 in Middlesex, Eng, and died Bet. Oct - Dec 1848 in Chelsea , Middlesex, Eng. He married (2) SARAH ANN BANISTER Abt. 1843 in Middlesex, Eng. She was born 1818 in Exmouth, Devon, Eng, and died Bet. Apr - Jun 1876 in Fulham, Middlesex, Eng. Notes for THOMAS WESTALL: Taken from the 1841 British Census Name: Thomas Westall Age: 23 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818 Household: View other family members Gender: Male Where born: Middlesex, England Civil parish: Hammersmith Hundred: Ossulstone (Kensington Division) County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Waterloo Place Occupation: Baker Source information: HO107/690/3 Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: Hammersmith St Paul ED, institution, or vessel: 5 Folio: 16 Page: 27 Line number: 13 GSU Number: 438806 Thomas Westall 23..Baker..Middlesex Eliza 28.............Middlesex Elizabeth 4.............Middlesex Charlotte 2.............Middlesex ################################# Taken from the 1851 British Census Name: Thomas Westall Age: 33 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818 Relation: Head Spouses's Name: Ann Gender: Male Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Hammersmith Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: 19 Bannisters Cottages Occupation: Omnibus Conductor Condition as to marriage: Married Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: St Paul Hammersmith ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 40 Thomas Westall Head..Marr..33..Omnibus Conductor.. Chiswick, Middlesex Ann Wife..Marr..33.....................................Devon, Exmouth Elizabeth Dau...S.......13......................................Kensington, Middlesex Eliza Dau...S.........7...................................... Ann Dau...S.........1......................................Shipr Bush, Middlesex ################################# Taken from 1861 British Census Name: Thos Westall Age: 43 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818 Relation: Head Gender: Male Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Poplar Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: 9 Norfolk St. Occupation: Om Conductor Condition as to marriage: Married Registration district: Poplar Sub-registration district: Poplar ED, institution, or vessel: 27 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 139 Thomas Westall Head..Mar..42..Om Conductor..Chiswick, Middlesex Ann Dau....S......11...........................Hammersmith, Middlesex ################################# Taken from the 1871 British Census Name: Thomas Westall Age: 53 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818 Relation: Lodger Gender: Male Where born: Cheswich Civil Parish: Poplar Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints County/Island: London Country: England Street address: No. 2 Poplar Occupation: Omnibus Conductor Registration district: Poplar Sub-registration district: Poplar ED, institution, or vessel: 27 Household schedule number: 180 Thomas Westall Lodger..53..Omnibus Conductor..Chiswick, Middlesex ################################ Taken from the 1881 British Census Name: Thomas Westall Age: 63 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818 Relation: Head Gender: Male Where Born: Farnham Green, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Bromley St Leonard County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 6 Athol St Condition as to marriage: Widow Occupation: Omnibus Conductor(Coach ND) Registration district: Poplar Sub registration district: Bromley ED, institution, or vessel: 44 Thomas Westall Head..Wdw..63..Omnibus Conductor..Middlesex, Farnham Green ################################## Taken from the 1891 British Census Name: Thomas Westall Age: 73 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818 Relation: Boarder Gender: Male Where Born: Shotwick, Middlesex, England Civil parish: St Leonard Ecclesiastical parish: All Hallows Town: Bromley County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 40 Athol St Occupation: Waterman Barge Condition as to marriage: Widower Registration district: Poplar Sub registration district: Bromley ED, institution, or vessel: 44 Thomas Westall Boarder..W..73..Waterman Barge..Shotwick, Middlesex, Eng ################################# Taken from the 1901 British Census Name: Thomas Westall Age: 84 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1817 Relation: Boarder Gender: Male Where born: Chiswick Civil parish: Bromley Ecclesiastical parish: All Hallows Town: London County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 8 ???? Occupation: ???? Omnibus Condition as to marriage: Widower Registration district: Poplar Sub-registration district: Bromley ED, institution, or vessel: 23 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 313 Thomas Westall Boarder..Wid..84..???? Omnibus..Chiswick Notes for ELIZABETH SWAIN: Taken from Free BMD Deaths Jun 1848 Westall, Elizabeth Chelsea, Vol. 3, Page 64 Notes for SARAH ANN BANISTER: Taken from the 1851 British Census Name: Ann Westall Age: 33 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818 Relation: Wife Spouses's Name: Thomas Gender: Female Where born: Exmouth, Devon, England Civil parish: Hammersmith Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: St Paul Hammersmith ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Household schedule number: 40 ################################# Taken from Free BMD Deaths Jun 1876 WESTALL Sarah Ann 64 Fulham, Vol. 1a, Page 156 Children of THOMAS WESTALL and ELIZABETH SWAIN are: i. ELIZABETH2 WESTALL, b. 1837, Middlesex, Eng. Notes for ELIZABETH WESTALL: Taken from the 1851 British Census Name: Elizabeth Westall Age: 13 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838 Relation: Daughter Father's name: Thomas Mother's name: Ann Gender: Female Where born: Kensington, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Hammersmith Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen County/Island: Middlesex Country: England 2. ii. CHARLOTTE WESTALL, b. Bet. Jan - Mar 1839, Kensington , Middlesex, Eng. Children of THOMAS WESTALL and SARAH BANISTER are: iii. ELIZA2 WESTALL, b. 1844, Kensington, Middlesex, Eng. Notes for ELIZA WESTALL: Taken from the 1851 British Census Name: Eliza Westall Age: 7 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844 Relation: Daughter Father's name: Thomas Mother's name: Ann Gender: Female Where born: Kensington, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Hammersmith Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: St Paul Hammersmith ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Household schedule number: 40 iv. ANN WESTALL, b. Bet. Jan - Mar 1850, Shiper Bush, Middlesex, Eng. Notes for ANN WESTALL: Taken from Free BMD Births Mar 1850 Westall Ann Kensington, Vol. 3, Page 353 ############################### Taken from the 1851 British Census Name: Ann Westall Age: 1 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850 Relation: Daughter Father's name: Thomas Mother's name: Ann Gender: Female Where born: Shipr Bush, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Hammersmith Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: St Paul Hammersmith ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Household schedule number: 40 Generation No. 2 2. CHARLOTTE2 WESTALL (THOMAS1) was born Bet. Jan - Mar 1839 in Kensington , Middlesex, Eng. She married JOHN COLE Bet. Jul - Sep 1855 in Chelsea, Middlesex, Eng. He was born 1837 in Poplar, Middlesex, Eng. Notes for CHARLOTTE WESTALL: Taken from Free BMS Births Mar 1839 Westall, Charlotte Kensington, Vol. 3, Page 228 ################################ Taken from the 1861 British Census Name: Charlotte Cole Age: 22 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839 Relation: Wife Spouses's Name: John Gender: Female Where born: Shepherds Bush, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Bromley County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Condition as to marriage: Married Registration district: Poplar Sub-registration district: Bow ED, institution, or vessel: 12 Household schedule number: ################################## Taken from the 1871 British Census Name: Charlotte Cole Age: 32 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839 Relation: Wife Spouses's Name: John Gender: Female Where born: Pheppardsbush, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Poplar All Saints Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints Town: London County/Island: London Country: England Condition as to marriage: Mar Disability: View image Registration district: Poplar Sub-registration district: Poplar ED, institution, or vessel: 25 Household schedule number: 70 More About CHARLOTTE WESTALL: Census: 1861, 1 Anns Cottages, Broomley, Middlesex, Eng Notes for JOHN COLE: Taken from the 1861 British Census Name: Charlotte Cole Age: 22 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839 Relation: Wife Spouses's Name: John Gender: Female Where born: Shepherds Bush, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Bromley County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: 1 Anns Cottages Occupation: Engine Fitter Condition as to marriage: Married Registration district: Poplar Sub-registration district: Bow ED, institution, or vessel: 12 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: John Cole Head..Mar..24..Engine Fitter..Middlesex, Poplar Charlotte Wife..Mar...22.......................Middlesex, Sheppard Bush Charlotte Dau.....S......5........................Middlesex, Chelsea John Son.....S......9 Mos................Middlesex, Poplar ################################# Taken from the 1871 British Census Name: John Cole Age: 34 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837 Relation: Head Spouses's Name: Charlotte Gender: Male Where born: Poplar, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Poplar All Saints Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints Town: London County/Island: London Country: England Occupation: Engine Fitter at Work Condition as to marriage: Married Registration district: Poplar Sub-registration district: Poplar ED, institution, or vessel: 25 Household schedule number: 70 Joihn Cole Head..Mar..34..Engine fitter at Work..Poplar, Middlesex Charlotte Wife...Mar..32....................................Shephards Bush John Son....S.....10..Scholar......................Poplar, Middlesex Thomas Son....S.......7..Scholar......................Poplar, Middlesex Frances Dau....S.......2.....................................Poplar, Middlesex More About JOHN COLE: Census: 1861, 1 Anns Cottages, Broomley, Middlesex, Eng Occupation: 1861, Engine Fitter Marriage Notes for CHARLOTTE WESTALL and JOHN COLE: Taken from Free BMD Marriages Sep 1855 Westall Charlotte Chelsea 1a 272 Cole John Chelsea 1a 272 Children of CHARLOTTE WESTALL and JOHN COLE are: i. CHARLOTTE3 COLE, b. 1856, Chelsea, Middlesex, Eng. More About CHARLOTTE COLE: Census: 1861, Bromley, Middlesex, Eng, lived with parents. ii. JOHN COLE, b. 1860, Poplar, Middlesex, Eng. More About JOHN COLE: Census: 1861, 1 Anns Cottages, Broomley, Middlesex, Eng, lived with parents. Occupation: 1871, Scholar iii. THOMAS COLE, b. 1864, Poplar, Middlesex, Eng. More About THOMAS COLE: Census: 1871, Bromley, Middlesex, Eng, lived with parents., Occupation: 1871, Scholar iv. FRANCES LOUISA COLE, b. Bet. Jan - Mar 1869, Poplar, Middlesex, Eng. Notes for FRANCES LOUISA COLE: Taken from Free BMD ?????????? Births Mar 1869 Cole Frances Louisa Poplar 1c 657 ################################ Taken from Free BMD ?????????? Marriages Dec 1897 Cole Frances Louisa Mile End 1c 761 More About FRANCES LOUISA COLE: Census: 1871, Bromley, Middlesex, Eng, lived with parents., From: carmen [mailto:millhillnw7@westnet.com.au] Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 12:00 AM To: bobatbmw@cox.net Subject: Westall's/Westhall's Hi Bob, Richard gave me your email and said to E you. I am a Westall. My family tree I can trace back as far as Thomas Westall born 1818. He married twice (few descendants know that). 1st wife was Elizabeth, second was Sarah Ann Banister. I am in touch with my 3rd 1/2 cousin Sarah Westall. She from the second marriage line.I am a descendent of Charlotte (Cole) whom he had with his 1st wife along with Elizabeth (Swain), do not know is he had anymore with her or how many died We do know some of the children died, not sure which ones from which marriage. Oh dear my poor brain! I do have a copy of the will hand written by Thomas Westhall born in 1818 in which he names a lot of his children, it is dated 1880. Hope you can work out from this if we are in fact related. Kind regards Carmen email:- millhillnw7@westnet.com.au

Hello, Kim. You are the type of person from whom one likes to get information. I learned the hard way and I must admit I was very careless some 11 years ago when I printed up my first book of family history, my mother's ancestry. Lured by the glitter of ancient kings and queens, I strayed far off the beaten track of documentation and wandered down all sorts of dreamy byways. It didn't bother me much as my book was a very limited edition not really intended to go beyond family members. Footnotes were few, and I generally just referred generally to sources in the text (but did include a bibliography). Unfortunately, I did wind up with extra copies that wound up in a few libraries. So by the time I got to my second book, my father's ancestry, I was more careful and began citing sources much better. And by the third book, my wife's ancestry, there were footnotes galore, citations throughout the text--as well as the usual biography. When conflicting information popped up, I used all versions and cited all sources. Along the way I did two large volumes of hometown history for public sale, and they are very, very thoroughly documented throughout. My fourth book of family history, in progress, is largely autobiographical and won't require much in the way of documentation. Pleading extenuating circumstances, in my defense I point out that I use no form of genealogical software and have never posted any line of descent onto the Internet. Everything on my computer is in the form of book pages ever in the process of correction and addition. Each book of family history also includes addenda correcting and adding to the previous volumes. I began picking away at some of the history as long as 53 years ago. I'm so old now that much of the stuff I'm currently writing about from memory (back to the 1930s) is pretty historic stuff itself. I recall my father's joy at the Repeal of Prohibition, walked the deck of the USS Constitution in 1934, recall Hitler's rise to power . . . etc. :-) Tom > From: "Kim Verhey" <kverhey@sio.midco.net> > Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 20:25:10 -0500 > To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: One World Family Tree > Resent-From: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com > Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 19:25:29 -0600 > > Just wanted to add my view to the previous post. > > I have found many various errors in genealogy data over the years from > seemingly accurate and verifiable sources. For example an official state > death record did not match the death date on a headstone (it was the same > person). Needless to say I use these 3 rules in deciding whether to use the > information. > 1.. verify sources > 2.. verify sources > 3.. verify sources > then if I use the information I "ALWAYS" list the source and sometimes a > footnote. Information garnered from someone else's hard work should always > give due credit to the purveyor of the information. If the info does not list > a source I always view it as suspect. > > Kim Verhey >

My mail was not intended as a criticism of submitted on-line trees, though some, as you say, leave a lot to be desired. More a criticism of Ancestry in taking old submitted trees, where information has been updated recently, then in trying to match them inappropriately, with only the flimsiest of connections. John Westley/ Margaretha Behm from Berks, Pennsylvania, USA John Westall/Martha Davies living in Reading, Berks, England Not a valid match that I can see! Online trees, even if incorrect, can give a starting point for further research. Ure Jane Tuthill's daughter, Jane Bigmore Brigden, married Arthur Westall, my great grandparents. A recent contact with someone with an online tree with the name of 'Ure' in it caught my eye. We found out that out of a dozen or so London female 'Ure's', nearly all were connected to either my 'Ure' or his 'Ure', chances were that there was a connection. Between the 2 of us we have worked hard and found the probable connection, though lacking the final proof. I have found out a lot more about my family, not from Jim's tree specifically, but by the 2 of us working together. So, inaccuracies there may be, but a starting point, especially where there is a contact name/number given Margaret ----Original Message Follows---- From: Tom Camfield <camfield@olympus.net> To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: One World Family Tree/Westalls of Berkshire and London Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 09:27:06 -0800 It's sad, but so many rootsweb and other Internet sources just get worse and worse, year after year. The problem comes from so many ill-informed (and semi-literate, in some cases) stature-seeking individuals are overly anxious to leap onto the genealogy bandwagon and post the first unverified rumor they hear about Grandma's roots. And they hasten to create personal web pages also, often featuring photos of themselves and their pets. The misinformation, largely undocumented, is eagerly grasped all sorts of impatient, over-eager "researchers", who in turn record it, post it, etc. The family information contributed to LDS is equally unreliable. Likewise, many early histories (late 1800s and early 1900s) that are sworn to as gospel contain erroneous relationships. Some of those presumptuous old authors can really lead one down an incorrect garden path. I have completed and printed three large hard-bound books of family history and have learned the hard way over many years. I have settled in pretty much at regular ongoing e-mail discussions of documented information with other family researchers as my major sources. Meanwhile, I've never been able to connect my particular Thomas Westall, who arrived in North Carolina shortly after 1800, back to his Virginia roots. Too many records lost in the war, for one thing. Regards, Tom -- Tom Camfield 538 Calhoun St. Port Townsend WA 98368 > From: "margaret wilkinson" <margaretjanew@hotmail.com> > Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 07:00:24 +0100 > To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: One World Family Tree/Westalls of Berkshire and London > Resent-From: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com > Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:00:36 -0600 > > The only thing is, on those records where I have found a match, the > information is several years out of date, or they have matched the wrong > people together!

Just wanted to add my view to the previous post. I have found many various errors in genealogy data over the years from seemingly accurate and verifiable sources. For example an official state death record did not match the death date on a headstone (it was the same person). Needless to say I use these 3 rules in deciding whether to use the information. 1.. verify sources 2.. verify sources 3.. verify sources then if I use the information I "ALWAYS" list the source and sometimes a footnote. Information garnered from someone else's hard work should always give due credit to the purveyor of the information. If the info does not list a source I always view it as suspect. Kim Verhey

I have no problem taking a really hard look at all submitted on-line trees. Generally, there is a shortage of documentation. And citing merely the name of an e-mail correspondent doesn't really cut it in that department. Personally, I've been happy that I've never hurriedly posted anything formal on the internet, as many do--a lot of them apparently driven by little more than getting their own name on record . . . and without ever then continuing their "research," let alone going back to correct erroneous "information." Any information I have contributed will be found in queries and replies in various places, such as discussion groups. NewsWatcher was really great for making contacts in some of the Internet's earliest years. While the Internet offers so much more these days, much of it is thoroughly corrupted. Your use of the name Tuthill caught my eye, by the way. I've been working diligently for some time to tie the Tuttle/Toothill line into my own ancestry. Did you know that back in Old England there's even a reputed connection of an early Hugh de Toothill to one of the individuals thought perhaps to have been the Robin Hood of legend? If you ever get bored and are interested in old Tuttles, you can find tons of Robin Hood material via a Google search. This Westall site, incidentally, was a big help to me when I was finishing off my third book of family history about eight years ago. We never found the connection I wanted back to Virginia in the 1700s, but I did pick up some very good material on some allied lines. Regards, Tom > From: "margaret wilkinson" <margaretjanew@hotmail.com> > Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 20:28:17 +0100 > To: camfield@olympus.net, WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: One World Family Tree/Westalls of Berkshire and London > > My mail was not intended as a criticism of submitted on-line trees, though > some, as you say, leave a lot to be desired. > More a criticism of Ancestry in taking old submitted trees, where > information has been updated recently, then in trying to match them > inappropriately, with only the flimsiest of connections. > > John Westley/ Margaretha Behm from Berks, Pennsylvania, USA > John Westall/Martha Davies living in Reading, Berks, England > > Not a valid match that I can see! > > Online trees, even if incorrect, can give a starting point for further > research. > Ure Jane Tuthill's daughter, Jane Bigmore Brigden, married Arthur Westall, > my great grandparents. > A recent contact with someone with an online tree with the name of 'Ure' in > it caught my eye. > We found out that out of a dozen or so London female 'Ure's', nearly all > were connected to either my 'Ure' or his 'Ure', chances were that there was > a connection. > Between the 2 of us we have worked hard and found the probable connection, > though lacking the final proof. > I have found out a lot more about my family, not from Jim's tree > specifically, but by the 2 of us working together. > So, inaccuracies there may be, but a starting point, especially where there > is a contact name/number given > Margaret > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Tom Camfield <camfield@olympus.net> > To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: One World Family Tree/Westalls of Berkshire and London > Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 09:27:06 -0800 > > It's sad, but so many rootsweb and other Internet sources just get worse and > worse, year after year. The problem comes from so many ill-informed (and > semi-literate, in some cases) stature-seeking individuals are overly anxious > to leap onto the genealogy bandwagon and post the first unverified rumor > they hear about Grandma's roots. And they hasten to create personal web > pages also, often featuring photos of themselves and their pets. The > misinformation, largely undocumented, is eagerly grasped all sorts of > impatient, over-eager "researchers", who in turn record it, post it, etc. > > The family information contributed to LDS is equally unreliable. > > Likewise, many early histories (late 1800s and early 1900s) that are sworn > to as gospel contain erroneous relationships. Some of those presumptuous old > authors can really lead one down an incorrect garden path. > > I have completed and printed three large hard-bound books of family history > and have learned the hard way over many years. I have settled in pretty much > at regular ongoing e-mail discussions of documented information with other > family researchers as my major sources. > > Meanwhile, I've never been able to connect my particular Thomas Westall, who > arrived in North Carolina shortly after 1800, back to his Virginia roots. > Too many records lost in the war, for one thing. > > Regards, > Tom > -- > Tom Camfield > 538 Calhoun St. > Port Townsend WA 98368 > >> From: "margaret wilkinson" <margaretjanew@hotmail.com> >> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 07:00:24 +0100 >> To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: One World Family Tree/Westalls of Berkshire and London >> Resent-From: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com >> Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:00:36 -0600 >> >> The only thing is, on those records where I have found a match, the >> information is several years out of date, or they have matched the wrong >> people together! > >

It's sad, but so many rootsweb and other Internet sources just get worse and worse, year after year. The problem comes from so many ill-informed (and semi-literate, in some cases) stature-seeking individuals are overly anxious to leap onto the genealogy bandwagon and post the first unverified rumor they hear about Grandma's roots. And they hasten to create personal web pages also, often featuring photos of themselves and their pets. The misinformation, largely undocumented, is eagerly grasped all sorts of impatient, over-eager "researchers", who in turn record it, post it, etc. The family information contributed to LDS is equally unreliable. Likewise, many early histories (late 1800s and early 1900s) that are sworn to as gospel contain erroneous relationships. Some of those presumptuous old authors can really lead one down an incorrect garden path. I have completed and printed three large hard-bound books of family history and have learned the hard way over many years. I have settled in pretty much at regular ongoing e-mail discussions of documented information with other family researchers as my major sources. Meanwhile, I've never been able to connect my particular Thomas Westall, who arrived in North Carolina shortly after 1800, back to his Virginia roots. Too many records lost in the war, for one thing. Regards, Tom -- Tom Camfield 538 Calhoun St. Port Townsend WA 98368 > From: "margaret wilkinson" <margaretjanew@hotmail.com> > Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 07:00:24 +0100 > To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: One World Family Tree/Westalls of Berkshire and London > Resent-From: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com > Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:00:36 -0600 > > The only thing is, on those records where I have found a match, the > information is several years out of date, or they have matched the wrong > people together!

Updated my Ancestry subscription recently, now One World Family Tree is included. Said to be a powerful feature, with nearly 400 million names in trees submitted by community members. The only thing is, on those records where I have found a match, the information is several years out of date, or they have matched the wrong people together! My Westall family, from Berkshire and London, gives an example of both of these!! John WESTALL, wife Martha DAVIES (from Mick Westall's tree in 2000), has been 'matched' with John WESTLEY, wife Margaretha BEHM, so in essence it has John WESTALL/WESTLEY, with 2 different wives, and children from each marriage. This in spite of the fact that John WESTLEY and Margaretha married in 1803, had children born 1804 and 1817, whilst John WESTALL and Martha, marriage date unknown, had children born 1802 to 1806! Later down the line there is Thomas WESTALL again from Mick's 2000 tree, married to Charlotte HENRIETTA. In census info, Thomas is married to 'Mary', this is reflected in Mick's latest online tree, updated 2005. Why are they using out of date material, surely there must be enough recent submissions to supply them with info, or has it not taken off as well as they thought it would? Margaret

Hi all, Hope you are on the mend Bob and not too frustrated. I think you, and all Westall followers will find this web site of interest. It gives the distribution of any surname within the UK at 1881 and 1998. http://www.spatial-literacy.org/ Mick

Re: Cookham, Maidenhead and Hungerford, the first two are not close to Hungerford as I said in my last email. Hungerford is over the other side of Berks. Looks like Thomas and James, (father and uncle of the William Wastell I was writing about) were born in Hungerford and moved to Cookham or thereabouts. James m. Nancy Medden from Bray and Thomas m. Mary Hewse or Heuse from Bisham. Both places are close to Cookham.

Hello, Firstly sorry to hear you are incapacitated at present Bob, 6 weeks can be a long time!! The mention of Hungerford and St. Clement Dane has remeinded me it has been some months since I mentioned David Westall born Scott Common, Oxon.1788 who served in the Peninsular Wars and at Waterloo with the 13th. Light Dragoons. He subsequently married at St. Clement Dane and after a short while in London went up to Tyneside with his wife Catherine Atkinson who came from Newcastle upon Tyne. I believe David's parents were David and Alice nee Ewen who married at Ipsden, Oxon 1787. If this family ties in with anyones family tree I would be happy to exchange information. Regards, Ron http://web.onetel.com/~ronperry

Hallo, my father was William Wastell who was born in Bethnal Green. I have been interested in a William Wastell and to distinguish him, I will call him 'Z'. Z lived in London. His first wife was Louisa Miles, daughter of St. Jonathan Miles whose family owned the Hoxton Madhouse in the East End. Z was the proprietor of the Hoxton Madhouse in 1829 (possibly from 1821 when Sir J.M. died until 1836 or so (when Z died). Possible because of the proximity of Hoxton to Bethnal Green (both in East End of London), people researching Z's family have linked him to my family. My ancestor (we don't currently know his father) was John Wastell who married Ann Mayhew in 1730. Some descendants of Z think that Z was one of John Wastell's grandchildren, born in 1788. When Louisa, Z's first wife died, Z married Agatha Whalley who also came from a noble family. Her brother Sir Samuel St. Swithins Burden Whalley was the MP for Marylebone somewhere around that time. Z and Louisa had three children, and Z and Agatha had 9. One of the sons went to Canada (Charles A.) and three came to Australia (William Henry, Octavius and Samuel Decimus). I have followed all of the children through at least several censuses. Agatha the wife, I have found in all but the 1851 (she is Agatha Haslett in 1841 living in Jersey). From 1871 approx to her death in 1886, she lived in Cookham, Berks. Her daughters Agatha and Julia lived with her. Daughter Agatha died in 1871 shortly after they moved there, and Julie lived in the area until c.1920, when she died in her nineties. Now I come to who Z really was. Thank you for your patience so far! My main clue was that the widow of Z, Agatha Wastell, lived next door to a John Wastell b. 1806, Maidenhead, Berks. Maidenhead, Cookham, and Hungerford seem to be used alternatively for roughly the same area. So I figured John might have been a cousin of Z. I went back and looked in other censuses for him and everywhere else John was a Westall. So I wondered was Z originally a Westall who changed to Wastell for whatever reason. Afterwards, these Westalls remained Westalls and the Z Wastells stayed Wastells. There was a William Westall b. in 1796 in Cookham, Berks, and I presumed this was Z (Agatha was b. in 1798, so that seems right, though not conclusive). So I tried to put together all the Hungerford Westalls to see what relationship Z would have been to John (the one who lived next door to Agatha). Looking for all the Hungerford Wastells on IGI, it seems there was only the one seed family about 1630 and probably all the Hungerford Wastells came from him. Can't exactly prove it, but a weight of evidence. If anyone would like charts, I have put them in various charts (size A3). I have not done gedcom files yet as I wanted to know that what I had done was fairly accurate. If this William is Z, he has a number of cousins. One would Samuel Westall, b. 1791, gentleman and attorney, who lived in St. Clement Danes and St. Pancras, and married Frederica Jane Maling. Another would be Richard Westall, court? Clerk, b. 1798, married Caroline Lumley, who lived in St. Pancras. John Westall who lived in High Street, Cookham much of his adult life was a surgeon and apothecary who trained at Guys Hospital in London. His father and Z's father, James, were plumbers, and so was James, John's brother. So though they came from a trade background, this new generation were highly educated. This explains to me how William could marry into two noble families or at least upper class and why his signature on both marriage allegations is that of an educated man. I think this theory works, partly because I can find most of the cousins in the 1841, 1851 and 1861 censuses, but not William (Z), maybe because he died in the 1830s. If you put William Wastell and Sir Jonathan Miles into google, you will come up with a site where you can read about the Hoxton Madhouse and Z, who was the proprietor, as mentioned. Is anyone related to those London families? I would be interested. Gillian Ford

Richard, This is just a short note. I just had surgery on my right shoulder and can not use my right arm for 6 weeks as it is tied to my side! :-( I am living with a friend for awhile but will try to look up the info ASAP! I have sent a cc of this email to WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com so that everyone will not think I fell off the edge of the world! :-) As ever, warmest regards to one and all. Bob Original Message: ----------------- From: richard westall richardjwestall@yahoo.co.uk Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:24:53 +0100 (BST) To: bobatbmw@cox.net Subject: genes reunited Dear Bob I am slowly putting together the family tree(s) for genes reunited. Long way to go and I will join when I've finished. I have put in Thomas Westalls descendants but some details are shaky. I think you sent them at some time but I will need the equivalent of a large, discerning spade to unearth them. So, if you have the urge could you check out the information. I would love to get yourfamily in but I dont think we ever got a link . There is more early Westall. Have a look and maybe we could do a reasonable speculation? Richard Jeremy Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

Bob, I thought I had posted full details of their marriage to the list, but looking through the archives I cannot find these, however I did mention in 'All quiet on the Westall front' (10 Oct 2005) that I have their marriage certificate. Marriage solemnised at Register Office, Croydon, by license 30 July 1908 Thomas Brigden Westall, aged 23, Bachelor, Journalist. Living at Station Hotel,Station Road, South Norwood Father Arthur Westall, deceased, licensed victualler Gertrude Hyde, aged 22, Spinster, living at Kirkdale Nursery, Selsdon Road, South Croydon Father Henry Hyde, nurseryman Witnesses U. J. Vandersteen and K. M. Keene Registrar Norman McLeod Superintendent registrar (?) W McLeod In 1901 Gertrude was the eldest of 11 children, but Henry and Mary Ann went on to have more children, 16 in total, only one of whom died in infancy, Leslie Robert Hyde, the baby aged 4 months in 1901 census. Gertrude was born 22 Jul 1886 in Croydon. Also in the same post I mentioned Thomas John Westall - (Thomas born 1833, who I am looking for at present in 1841 census) ''According to Mick's site, Thomas John Westall died in 1897, but I have found him live and kicking in 1901 census, I have no idea when he died, cannot find a remotely suitable BMD ref to send for certifcate, or even just to give me some idea of when he died.'' Since ancestry put BMD images online, I have found what is possibly his death as follows, but the age is slightly out, he would have been nearer to 80 -: Death Pancras Thomas J Westall, aged 77 Dec qtr 1913 Vol 1b p64 The 2 young Westall infants (mentioned in my post of yesterday) may be buried with him and Thomas Westall snr (born c 1807 Reading) who probably died as follows Death Pancras Thomas Westall Age 68 Mar qtr 1875 Vol 1b p47 If I have the correct death references for John and Martha Westall, Thomas snrs parents (see previous post), there may well be a family plot somewhere in London. Margaret ----Original Message Follows---- From: "bobatbmw" <bobatbmw@cox.net> To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Gertrude Hyde Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:51:43 -0400 Margaret, I believe you have Thomas Brigden Westall m Gertrude Hyde 30 Jul 1908 with no location? I found them marrying in the 3rd quarter of 1908 in Croydon, Surrey? How does that sound? The 1901 Census showing a Gertrude Hyde (b 1887 in Croydon, Surrey) and family. Also www.rootsweb.com shows a Gertrude Hyde b Jul - Sep 1886 in Croydon, Surrey! I don't know but it looks like a pretty good possiblity? If you look up Henry Hyde in the 1901 Census you will see Gertude was the oldest of 13 children! Does any of this make sense? Bob Taken from the 1901 British Census Name: Henry Hyde Age: 39 Estimated birth year: abt 1862 Relation: Head Gender: Male Where born: Epping, Essex, England Civil parish: Croydon Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter Town: Croydon County/Island: Surrey Country: England Street address: 20 Selsdon Road Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Married Education: Employment status: Employed Source information: RG13/636 Registration district: Croydon Sub-registration district: Croydon ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Folio: 151 Page: 16 Household schedule number: 107

I do apologise! a Martha and a Thomas Westall NOT on same page as the Franklins in City Gardens, Finsbury. Charles Westall abt 1831 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Elizabeth Westall abt 1827 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Harriet Westall abt 1801 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire James Westall abt 1836 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Maria Westall abt 1837 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Martha Westall abt 1826 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Sophia Westall abt 1840 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Thomas Westall abt 1801 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Virgin Westall abt 1838 Berkshire, England East Ilsley Berkshire Living in Cow Lane, East Ilsley HO107/14/6 Folio: 9 Page: 12 Next door but one household is a David Franklin, 15, Shoe m apt ( shoe makers apprentice??) The christening and marriage of Ann Westall and William Franklin was also in East Ilsley. There is a connection there somewhere! Margaret ----Original Message Follows---- From: "margaret wilkinson" <margaretjanew@hotmail.com> To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Caroline Westall b 1834 and other London Westall's Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:33:08 +0100 Mick and Bob, it's nice to have the discussion open again re this branch of Westall family. I contacted the list earlier this week about my problems with 1841 census images, now resolved. I have had a search for my Westall family in 1841 with no luck. Looking for Thomas Westall born c 1807 +/- wife Maria (nee Burden or Franklin, see later), and son Thomas John Westall born 1833 St Giles, London There were over 30 Thomas Westall/Westell's listed, but none seem to fit in with what I know, tough I found your John Westall and family fairly quickly, Mick. I was hoping to find a sibling or two for Thomas junior, but with incorrect ages, no place of birth and no relationships shown, it is much more difficult to 'find' people than in any other census. I will have another look at some stage; try some different spellings, abbreviations, etc. I am not sure if I mentioned it before, but I have been told by Josie, an elderly Westall relative, that my Great grandparents, Arthur Westall and Jane Bigmore Brigden, had 2 children who did not survive infancy. Josie's mother was Rhesus negative and she 'assumes' that this may be the reason for their early deaths. 2 likely candidates from BMD records are Arthur George Westall, born and died Dec qtr 1887, and George Westall, birth registered Dec qtr 1889 (no death reg found, but also cannot find in 1901 census). My grandfather Thomas Brigden Westall was first-born 22 April 1885 and Josie's mother, Ure Mary Jane Westall, was born child no 4, born 1896. A 5th child, Arthur John Westall was born Jun qtr 1901, died Dec qtr 1901, buried in same grave as his father, Arthur Westall and brother, Thomas Brigden Westall in Mitcham, Surrey. Arthur John apparently died from milk intolerance at age of 8 months; the family even went as far as buying a goat to give him milk! All 3 of those deaths (if Josie has her facts correct) would be so easily avoidable nowadays. The two boys who died in London possibly buried somewhere with other 'London' Westall rels, no details found as yet. BTW Mick, you mention that 'The previous generation of Margaret's line does not seem to show any likely link either.' I have been unable to find out any info re John Westall and Martha Davis, other than what is in your online tree. I have provisional death registration records for them, but have not had enough confidence in them to send for the certificates!! If they are correct, they should also appear in 1841 census, no convincing candidates so far, but then, I have no idea of when or where they were born, or John's occupation! These are the refs Death Marylebone Westall John Mar qtr 1847 Vol 1 p190 Deaths Bloomsbury WESTALL Martha Sep qtr 1844 Vol 1 p54 or Death St Giles Westall Martha Mar qtr 1848 Vol 1 p63 A possible resolution of the Maria Franklin/Burden question 1851 census Thomas Westall, Head, Widr, M, 45, Shoemaker, Berks, Reading Thomas Westall, Son, M, 17, Printer, Middx, St Giles Edmund Franklin, Nephew, Widr, M, 21, Shoemaker, Middx, St Giles Living at 56, Dudley Street, St Giles in the Fields, Finsbury HO 107/1509 Folio 389 p12 Edmund Franklin in 1841 census possibly shown as son of William and Ann Franklin William Franklin, M, 50, Painter I, N Ann Franklin, F, 40, N Ann Franklin, F, 15, N Edmund Franklin, M, 7, N Emma Franklin, F, 4, N Francis Franklin, M, 2, N Living in City (?) Gardens, St Mary's Islington, Finsbury HO 107/664/2 Folio 18 p2 There is a Martha and a Thomas Westall on the page as well (but not the ones I am looking for, unfortunately!) I have just found the following marriage found in IGI Ann Westall Christening: 29 MAR 1761 East Ilsley, Berkshire, England Spouse: William Franklin Marriage: 03 JAN 1785 East Ilsley, Berkshire, England Record submitted after 1991 by a member of the LDS Church. Obviously, the ages of William, Ann and Edward are not right on 1841 census, but I think there may be a connection if I dig a little deeper. As for Maria Burden, following refs found for her surname – IGI MARIA BURDEN THOMAS WESTALL Marriage: 30 OCT 1831 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London, England Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record Pallott’s Marriage Index Name: Maria Burden Spouse: Thos Westall Marriage Date: 1831 Parish: St Anne, Soho Regards to all, I'll carry on searching, Margaret ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Michael Westall" <l.m.westall@btinternet.com> To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Caroline Westall b 1834 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:00:18 +0100 Many thanks Bob, for your very interesting information. I agree with you, the details are definitely of my Carolyn and her sisters. In 1881, 62 Willes Road is where other members of the family were living and it all ties up. I am very surprised at her marriage - I wonder where ? I will have to look at the 1901 census, I haven't got round to it yet. Thinking again about Margaret Wilkinson's information of 23 April, I am sure there must be a tie up with the Reading Westalls somewhere - Dudley Street, Kentish Town is the street that my family were in at the same time but at number 67. Also my Henry Westall, although born (1882) in Kentish Tn, went to live in Reading for most of his life - why Reading? I guess the key is my John Westall's birth. I cannot locate this anywhere, I think there must be wrong or incomplete information on the 1841,1851 and 1861 census, but even allowing for this I can find no record of anyone around his assumed birth date (1811 - 1813) with a similar name and details. I have been looking since 1975 !! The previous generation of Margaret's line does not seem to show any likely link either. Any further thoughts will be gratefully received. Keep up the good work ! Mick ----- Original Message ----- From: "bobatbmw" <bobatbmw@cox.net> To: <WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:43 AM Subject: Caroline Westall b 1834 >Mick, > >I checked your family on www.rootsweb.com and it still shows Caroline (b >1834 Bloomsbury, London, Eng) with no husband. > >The other day while checking in the 1841 census I got curious about >Caroline >and did some further looking. Her father died before the 1871 Census, but >Caroline did show in the 1871 Census living with her mothoer. In rootsweb >Free BMD I found a Caroline Westall marrying a Samuel Henry Gatehouse (b >1845 in Mere, Wiltshire) in the first quarter of 1872 in Pancras, London, >Eng. I tried to find them in the 1881 and the 1891 census but I had no >luck. I did find them in the 1901 Census and to me the proof was that >Sarah >and Elizabeth Westall were both living with them and Westall sisters were >still Artificial Flower Makers! > >There is a variance in Caroline's age but Samuel was 11 years younger and I >thought she had not been totally candid with her much younger husband! > >Ironically, I have looked and looked trying to find Samuel in an earlier >census and thereby his family but I have not been able to come up with a >clue on him? > >Do you have any thoughts on the above? > >Bob > >Here are my notes on Samuel Henry Gatehouse: > >Taken from the 1891 British Census > >Name: Samuel H Gatehouse >Age: 56 >Estimated birth year: abt 1845 >Relation: Head >Gender: Male >Where born: Mere, Wiltshire, England >Civil parish: St Pancras >Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas Kentish Town >County/Island: London >Country: England >Street address: 8 Willes Road >Occupation: Retired Dairyman >Condition as to marriage: Married >Employment status: Retired >Source information: RG13/152 >Registration district: St Pancras >Sub-registration district: Kentish Town >ED, institution, or vessel: 1 >Folio: 15 >Page: 21 >Household schedule number: 141 > >Samuel H. Gatehouse Head..M..56..Retired Dairyman...........Wilts, Mere >Caroline >Wife...M..60......................................London, Bloomsbury >Sarah Westall .........S..58..Artificial Flower >Mounter..London, Bloomsbury >Elizabeth .........S..47..Artificial Flower >Mounter..London, Bloomsbury >################################# > >

Mick and Bob, it's nice to have the discussion open again re this branch of Westall family. I contacted the list earlier this week about my problems with 1841 census images, now resolved. I have had a search for my Westall family in 1841 with no luck. Looking for Thomas Westall born c 1807 +/- wife Maria (nee Burden or Franklin, see later), and son Thomas John Westall born 1833 St Giles, London There were over 30 Thomas Westall/Westell's listed, but none seem to fit in with what I know, though I found your John Westall and family fairly quickly, Mick. I was hoping to find a sibling or two for Thomas junior, but with incorrect ages, no place of birth and no relationships shown, it is much more difficult to 'find' people than in any other census. I will have another look at some stage; try some different spellings, abbreviations, etc. I am not sure if I mentioned it before, but I have been told by Josie, an elderly Westall relative, that my Great grandparents, Arthur Westall and Jane Bigmore Brigden, had 2 children who did not survive infancy. Josie's mother was Rhesus negative and she 'assumes' that this may be the reason for their early deaths. 2 likely candidates from BMD records are Arthur George Westall, born and died Dec qtr 1887, and George Westall, birth registered Dec qtr 1889 (no death reg found, but also cannot find in 1901 census). My grandfather Thomas Brigden Westall was first-born 22 April 1885 and Josie's mother, Ure Mary Jane Westall, was born child no 4, born 1896. A 5th child, Arthur John Westall was born Jun qtr 1901, died Dec qtr 1901, buried in same grave as his father, Arthur Westall and brother, Thomas Brigden Westall in Mitcham, Surrey. Arthur John apparently died from milk intolerance at age of 8 months; the family even went as far as buying a goat to give him milk! All 3 of those deaths (if Josie has her facts correct) would be so easily avoidable nowadays. The two boys who died in London possibly buried somewhere with other 'London' Westall rels, no details found as yet. BTW Mick, you mention that 'The previous generation of Margaret's line does not seem to show any likely link either.' I have been unable to find out any info re John Westall and Martha Davis, other than what is in your online tree. I have provisional death registration records for them, but have not had enough confidence in them to send for the certificates!! If they are correct, they should also appear in 1841 census, no convincing candidates so far, but then, I have no idea of when or where they were born, or John's occupation! These are the refs Death Marylebone Westall John Mar qtr 1847 Vol 1 p190 Deaths Bloomsbury WESTALL Martha Sep qtr 1844 Vol 1 p54 or Death St Giles Westall Martha Mar qtr 1848 Vol 1 p63 A possible resolution of the Maria Franklin/Burden question 1851 census Thomas Westall, Head, Widr, M, 45, Shoemaker, Berks, Reading Thomas Westall, Son, M, 17, Printer, Middx, St Giles Edmund Franklin, Nephew, Widr, M, 21, Shoemaker, Middx, St Giles Living at 56, Dudley Street, St Giles in the Fields, Finsbury HO 107/1509 Folio 389 p12 Edmund Franklin in 1841 census possibly shown as son of William and Ann Franklin William Franklin, M, 50, Painter I, N Ann Franklin, F, 40, N Ann Franklin, F, 15, N Edmund Franklin, M, 7, N Emma Franklin, F, 4, N Francis Franklin, M, 2, N Living in City (?) Gardens, St Mary's Islington, Finsbury HO 107/664/2 Folio 18 p2 There is a Martha and a Thomas Westall on the page as well (but not the ones I am looking for, unfortunately!) I have just found the following marriage found in IGI Ann Westall Christening: 29 MAR 1761 East Ilsley, Berkshire, England Spouse: William Franklin Marriage: 03 JAN 1785 East Ilsley, Berkshire, England Record submitted after 1991 by a member of the LDS Church. Obviously, the ages of William, Ann and Edward are not right on 1841 census, but I think there may be a connection if I dig a little deeper. As for Maria Burden, following refs found for her surname – IGI MARIA BURDEN THOMAS WESTALL Marriage: 30 OCT 1831 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London, England Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record Pallott’s Marriage Index Name: Maria Burden Spouse: Thos Westall Marriage Date: 1831 Parish: St Anne, Soho Regards to all, I'll carry on searching, Margaret ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Michael Westall" <l.m.westall@btinternet.com> To: WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Caroline Westall b 1834 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:00:18 +0100 Many thanks Bob, for your very interesting information. I agree with you, the details are definitely of my Carolyn and her sisters. In 1881, 62 Willes Road is where other members of the family were living and it all ties up. I am very surprised at her marriage - I wonder where ? I will have to look at the 1901 census, I haven't got round to it yet. Thinking again about Margaret Wilkinson's information of 23 April, I am sure there must be a tie up with the Reading Westalls somewhere - Dudley Street, Kentish Town is the street that my family were in at the same time but at number 67. Also my Henry Westall, although born (1882) in Kentish Tn, went to live in Reading for most of his life - why Reading? I guess the key is my John Westall's birth. I cannot locate this anywhere, I think there must be wrong or incomplete information on the 1841,1851 and 1861 census, but even allowing for this I can find no record of anyone around his assumed birth date (1811 - 1813) with a similar name and details. I have been looking since 1975 !! The previous generation of Margaret's line does not seem to show any likely link either. Any further thoughts will be gratefully received. Keep up the good work ! Mick ----- Original Message ----- From: "bobatbmw" <bobatbmw@cox.net> To: <WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:43 AM Subject: Caroline Westall b 1834 >Mick, > >I checked your family on www.rootsweb.com and it still shows Caroline (b >1834 Bloomsbury, London, Eng) with no husband. > >The other day while checking in the 1841 census I got curious about >Caroline >and did some further looking. Her father died before the 1871 Census, but >Caroline did show in the 1871 Census living with her mothoer. In rootsweb >Free BMD I found a Caroline Westall marrying a Samuel Henry Gatehouse (b >1845 in Mere, Wiltshire) in the first quarter of 1872 in Pancras, London, >Eng. I tried to find them in the 1881 and the 1891 census but I had no >luck. I did find them in the 1901 Census and to me the proof was that >Sarah >and Elizabeth Westall were both living with them and Westall sisters were >still Artificial Flower Makers! > >There is a variance in Caroline's age but Samuel was 11 years younger and I >thought she had not been totally candid with her much younger husband! > >Ironically, I have looked and looked trying to find Samuel in an earlier >census and thereby his family but I have not been able to come up with a >clue on him? > >Do you have any thoughts on the above? > >Bob > >Here are my notes on Samuel Henry Gatehouse: > >Taken from the 1891 British Census > >Name: Samuel H Gatehouse >Age: 56 >Estimated birth year: abt 1845 >Relation: Head >Gender: Male >Where born: Mere, Wiltshire, England >Civil parish: St Pancras >Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas Kentish Town >County/Island: London >Country: England >Street address: 8 Willes Road >Occupation: Retired Dairyman >Condition as to marriage: Married >Employment status: Retired >Source information: RG13/152 >Registration district: St Pancras >Sub-registration district: Kentish Town >ED, institution, or vessel: 1 >Folio: 15 >Page: 21 >Household schedule number: 141 > >Samuel H. Gatehouse Head..M..56..Retired Dairyman...........Wilts, Mere >Caroline >Wife...M..60......................................London, Bloomsbury >Sarah Westall .........S..58..Artificial Flower >Mounter..London, Bloomsbury >Elizabeth .........S..47..Artificial Flower >Mounter..London, Bloomsbury >################################# > >

Margaret, I believe you have Thomas Brigden Westall m Gertrude Hyde 30 Jul 1908 with no location? I found them marrying in the 3rd quarter of 1908 in Croydon, Surrey? How does that sound? The 1901 Census showing a Gertrude Hyde (b 1887 in Croydon, Surrey) and family. Also www.rootsweb.com shows a Gertrude Hyde b Jul - Sep 1886 in Croydon, Surrey! I don't know but it looks like a pretty good possiblity? If you look up Henry Hyde in the 1901 Census you will see Gertude was the oldest of 13 children! Does any of this make sense? Bob Taken from the 1901 British Census Name: Henry Hyde Age: 39 Estimated birth year: abt 1862 Relation: Head Gender: Male Where born: Epping, Essex, England Civil parish: Croydon Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter Town: Croydon County/Island: Surrey Country: England Street address: 20 Selsdon Road Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Married Education: Employment status: Employed Source information: RG13/636 Registration district: Croydon Sub-registration district: Croydon ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Folio: 151 Page: 16 Household schedule number: 107

Many thanks Bob, for your very interesting information. I agree with you, the details are definitely of my Carolyn and her sisters. In 1881, 62 Willes Road is where other members of the family were living and it all ties up. I am very surprised at her marriage - I wonder where ? I will have to look at the 1901 census, I haven't got round to it yet. Thinking again about Margaret Wilkinson's information of 23 April, I am sure there must be a tie up with the Reading Westalls somewhere - Dudley Street, Kentish Town is the street that my family were in at the same time but at number 67. Also my Henry Westall, although born (1882) in Kentish Town, went to live in Reading for most of his life - why Reading? I guess the key is my John Westall's birth. I cannot locate this anywhere, I think there must be wrong or incomplete information on the 1841,1851 and 1861 census, but even allowing for this I can find no record of anyone around his assumed birth date (1811 - 1813) with a similar name and details. I have been looking since 1975 !! The previous generation of Margaret's line does not seem to show any likely link either. Any further thoughts will be gratefully received. Keep up the good work ! Mick ----- Original Message ----- From: "bobatbmw" <bobatbmw@cox.net> To: <WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:43 AM Subject: Caroline Westall b 1834 > Mick, > > I checked your family on www.rootsweb.com and it still shows Caroline (b > 1834 Bloomsbury, London, Eng) with no husband. > > The other day while checking in the 1841 census I got curious about > Caroline > and did some further looking. Her father died before the 1871 Census, but > Caroline did show in the 1871 Census living with her mothoer. In > rootsweb > Free BMD I found a Caroline Westall marrying a Samuel Henry Gatehouse (b > 1845 in Mere, Wiltshire) in the first quarter of 1872 in Pancras, London, > Eng. I tried to find them in the 1881 and the 1891 census but I had no > luck. I did find them in the 1901 Census and to me the proof was that > Sarah > and Elizabeth Westall were both living with them and Westall sisters were > still Artificial Flower Makers! > > There is a variance in Caroline's age but Samuel was 11 years younger and > I > thought she had not been totally candid with her much younger husband! > > Ironically, I have looked and looked trying to find Samuel in an earlier > census and thereby his family but I have not been able to come up with a > clue on him? > > Do you have any thoughts on the above? > > Bob > > Here are my notes on Samuel Henry Gatehouse: > > Taken from the 1891 British Census > > Name: Samuel H Gatehouse > Age: 56 > Estimated birth year: abt 1845 > Relation: Head > Gender: Male > Where born: Mere, Wiltshire, England > Civil parish: St Pancras > Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas Kentish Town > County/Island: London > Country: England > Street address: 8 Willes Road > Occupation: Retired Dairyman > Condition as to marriage: Married > Employment status: Retired > Source information: RG13/152 > Registration district: St Pancras > Sub-registration district: Kentish Town > ED, institution, or vessel: 1 > Folio: 15 > Page: 21 > Household schedule number: 141 > > Samuel H. Gatehouse Head..M..56..Retired Dairyman...........Wilts, Mere > Caroline > Wife...M..60......................................London, Bloomsbury > Sarah Westall .........S..58..Artificial Flower > Mounter..London, Bloomsbury > Elizabeth .........S..47..Artificial Flower > Mounter..London, Bloomsbury > ################################# > >

Hi folks Can anyone lay claim to the Mr WESTALL [of Newbury?] who features in the following extracts from a letter written by Stephen LEACH, found in a register of Romsey Independent Church, amongst correspondence relating to the opening of a meeting house in Newbury, and about his [Stephen LEACH's] acceptance into the fellowship there? Newbury August 12th 1846 Dearly Beloved Brother in Christ The first part of this Epistle will be rather of a painful nature which I desire to communicate to you, for your advice and opinion as to the Steps which I considered it was my duty to take_ In my last I wrote you some account of my correspondence with Mr. WESTALL which I thought was in a fair way of opening a door for my being relieved from my solitude, and of being made useful in the vineyard of the Lord_ We had taken the Room for meeting and Mr WESTALL appeared very friendly until I shewed him your last letter, which was a few days before the Meeting house was opened when he wrote as follows: "My dear Friend You having sent to your Friend my note to you evidently for his opinion not being satisfied with your own judgment in the matter, and your having handed to me his letter for my perusal: that the views therein contained are virtually your own views, as such I unhesitatingly say my dear friend I could not meet with you on the Lord's day morning in the way I have stated we are *accustomed to meet; for however great may be the value I attach to the opinion of a Brother in Christ, I certainly attach infinitely more for the written word offered as a rule and guide for my actions and conduct it being with God we have to do." a.. They eat what they term the Lord's supper every Sunday morning. [There follows a lengthy discussion followed by the next paragraph.] The primitive Brethren are more exclusive than any other Sects, for I believe from what Friend WESTALL informed me, that they permit no one to speak or pray among them but such as are in strict Fellowship with them_ notwithstanding I often attend Mr. WESTALL's preaching feeling some satisfaction that on many important points we see eye to eye_ such as our mutual rejection of hireling preachers - the doctrine of the Trinity - the Sabbath day as commonly accepted; and their Bond of love existing between their Brethren without any antichristian distinction. As to Baptism, they are rather dark. Friend W. said he considered it an outward sign of an inward and spiritual grace!!! I told him that I considered the outward sign of an inward and spiritual grace consisted in a willing and an affectionate obedience to the commands of Christ our Lord and any imitation of his blessed and meek spirit, and I believe he is convinced of its truth. And now my dear Brother having written a fair Statement of the things which have happened to me at Newbury ..... But I must draw to a close. Greet Brother GREEN beloved in the Lord and all the Brethren and Sisters in Christ_ Say to him that I am getting on with the Exposition but I want him at my elbow, but it will undergo his pruning hook, and this I must be contented .... Stephen Leach.

Mick, I checked your family on www.rootsweb.com and it still shows Caroline (b 1834 Bloomsbury, London, Eng) with no husband. The other day while checking in the 1841 census I got curious about Caroline and did some further looking. Her father died before the 1871 Census, but Caroline did show in the 1871 Census living with her mothoer. In rootsweb Free BMD I found a Caroline Westall marrying a Samuel Henry Gatehouse (b 1845 in Mere, Wiltshire) in the first quarter of 1872 in Pancras, London, Eng. I tried to find them in the 1881 and the 1891 census but I had no luck. I did find them in the 1901 Census and to me the proof was that Sarah and Elizabeth Westall were both living with them and Westall sisters were still Artificial Flower Makers! There is a variance in Caroline's age but Samuel was 11 years younger and I thought she had not been totally candid with her much younger husband! Ironically, I have looked and looked trying to find Samuel in an earlier census and thereby his family but I have not been able to come up with a clue on him? Do you have any thoughts on the above? Bob Here are my notes on Samuel Henry Gatehouse: Taken from the 1891 British Census Name: Samuel H Gatehouse Age: 56 Estimated birth year: abt 1845 Relation: Head Gender: Male Where born: Mere, Wiltshire, England Civil parish: St Pancras Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas Kentish Town County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 8 Willes Road Occupation: Retired Dairyman Condition as to marriage: Married Employment status: Retired Source information: RG13/152 Registration district: St Pancras Sub-registration district: Kentish Town ED, institution, or vessel: 1 Folio: 15 Page: 21 Household schedule number: 141 Samuel H. Gatehouse Head..M..56..Retired Dairyman...........Wilts, Mere Caroline Wife...M..60......................................London, Bloomsbury Sarah Westall .........S..58..Artificial Flower Mounter..London, Bloomsbury Elizabeth .........S..47..Artificial Flower Mounter..London, Bloomsbury #################################

I dare say Patricia's artist Westalls may connect with the earlier William Westall 1781-1850 who was the artist with Flinders' expedition to Australia. His wife Ann Sidgwick from Dent bore him four sons: William (Rev) 1821, Thomas, Robert (artist) and Richard. William the elder had a much older half-brother Richard, also an artist. John Ward Website: www.wardjc.com. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Harper" <pats7@bigpond.com> To: <WESTALL-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 8:30 AM Subject: re: Thomas Westall c1793 Oxford > Hi Bob and all Westall researchers, > > I last emailed last October re my great great great great grandfather > Thomas Westall, a landscape painter born in Oxford, (probably St > Magdalen). At that time I was under the misapprehension that he had > married an Elizabeth King, but their youngest son's birth certificate from > 1838 revealed her name as being Elizabeth Cocker. > > A connection via genesreunited with a descendant of another of their sons, > Thomas junior, has been a real breakthrough. Jacqui, (who will be joining > us here soon) had found details of a marriage for Thomas Westall and > Elizabeth Cocker at St Mary Magdalen, Oxford, on 30 October 1815, but > wasn't sure if she had the right Thomas Westall. Luckily we were able to > pool our information to confirm this, and we have been happily > collaborating on our Westall family ever since. > > We know that sons George c1820 Newbury, Berkshire, John c1823 Oxford, > and Thomas c1830 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, were all landscape painters > at one time, though Thomas and younger brother William later became house > painters. George earned a living as a picture framer/restorer in London > and my great great great grandmother, the widowed Harriet Calcutt nee > Westall (c1817 Newbury, Berkshire) lived with him at Hampstead for at > least 20 years. Sadly they both died in the Hampstead Union Workhouse in > 1900 within four months of one another. > > Their brother John did quite well for himself as a landscape painter and > one of his works can be seen at > > http://www.aspireauctions.com/auction21/details/2831.html > > He moved to Birmingham in the 1860's and later married a woman some 25 > years his junior. They had many children, some of whom emigrated to > Canada. > > As well as the above-mentioned four sons and daughter Harriet, Thomas and > Elizabeth also had daughters Elizabeth, Ann Alice, and Selina. They all > had lots of children so hopefully someone descended from one or another of > them will see this and add some more details. > > Regards, > > Pat > > >