James Elliott, administrator of the 'Elliott and Scottish Border Reivers DNA' project has set up a forum where he invites all those 'wishing to discuss genealogical, historical or scientific issues relative to the origin and descent of Anglo-Scottish Border families to join in discussion'. All those who have been muted from continuing discussions on this subject on other Rootsweb sites may wish to post to this forum. The welcome message can be found at: http://www.ybase.org/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=514 Looking forward to reading good discussions, John Carr > Donald: > > I respect your opinion, but couldn't disagree with you > more. > > Unfortunately, Ann (our knowledgeable and respected > moderator) has discontinued this discussion, I believe > because it is too "anthropologically-based." While I > think that the majority of posts on this site are > clearly anthropologically-based (ie, about population > genetics and related matters such as haplogroups), I > have to respect our moderator's decision. > > Should you wish to continue this debate in private, > feel free to contact me at ellenlevy66@yahoo.com. > > Ellen Coffman > > --- "Donald N. Yates, Ph.D." <dpy@dnaconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> Hi, Ellen and all! >> >> A lot of the argument is semantics. There is no >> evidence that any population >> group considered *themselves* or identified >> *themselves* as Celtic until the >> nineteenth century. Greeks called certain "wild" >> tribes or barbarians in the >> Balkan and Black Sea hinterland "Scythian." Romans >> referred to the tribes of >> France as Gauls and Germans and Belgians (cognate >> with "Welsh"). We do not >> know what language or genetics the ancient "Albans" >> or "Picts" had. It's >> like the term "Native American" which was a >> political neologism of the >> Reagan Administration, a kind of policy sop to >> American Indians. Are modern >> day powwows manifestations of Native American >> culture and genetics? >> According to Russell Means, "grass dancing" and >> fancy dancing were invented >> out of whole cloth by Lakota Sioux Indians trying to >> please tourists and >> make money at state fairs in the late 1950s. The >> popular religion of Wiccan >> was invented by a single man in the nineteenth >> century. The Native American >> Church was the creation of James Mooney, a white >> anthropologist, who put up >> the money and incorporated it around 1920. It now >> has hundreds of thousands >> of adherents, particularly among the Navajo. All >> these things are social >> constructs. >> >> A good example of Celtic culture is the "Celtic" >> Church. Donald Meek, >> professor of Celtic at the University of Aberdeen, >> has suggested that the >> great bulk of what we think we know about the Celtic >> church is a romantic >> construct, the creation of poets like the >> eighteenth-century "Ossian" and, >> more recently, of "feel-good Celticists" and New Age >> enthusiasts (2000, >> chapters 1-6). Moreover, the term "Celtic" lay >> dormant from antiquity until >> it was revived by the humanist George Buchanan, the >> tutor to Mary Queen of >> Scots and later to her son, the future James I of >> England (Atherton 2002, >> pp. 24-28). The label itself is a misconception, and >> recent critics have >> even withdrawn the use of the word "church" from the >> phrase "Celtic Church" >> on the grounds that it implies a hierarchy and >> organization that never >> existed (pp. 51-52). >> >> As far as I am aware, Sir Walter Scott, who >> spearheaded the revival of >> nationalistic culture in Scotland in the early >> nineteenth century, did not >> use the term "Celtic" in his writings but rather >> Saxon and Norman. I may be >> wrong about this as I haven't read everything by >> him! Most of the >> Celticizing came from Lady Gregory, William Butler >> Yeats and their circle at >> the close of the century. >> >> If you take language rather than genetics as a >> cultural marker, there are >> fewer than 1,000 "mother tongue" speakers of >> American Indian languages in >> the U.S. and the more than 1,000 Native languages >> thought to have flourished >> here before Columbus are almost all extinct now. The >> few that survive are >> kept artificially alive as ceremonial languages or >> museum pieces (sad to >> say). See Elizabeth Seay, a Wall Street Journal >> writer from Oklahoma in >> Searching for Lost City (2003). >> >> Don >> >> Donald N. Yates, Ph.D. >> DNA Consulting >> http://www.dnaconsultants.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: ellen Levy >> To: GENEALOGY-DNA-L@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 10:39 PM >> Subject: Re: [DNA] "Celtisized" R1bs from Continent >> To the British Isles >> Circa 1000-60... >> >> >> Donald: >> >> I could be wrong about this, but I believe most >> Scottish people today do most definitely consider >> themselves "Celtic." >> >> "Celtic" isn't descriptive of a particular >> haplogroup, >> it's a cultural and linguistic term. >> >> It has been my hypothesis as well that R1a carried >> the >> SECOND wave of Indo-European languages, including >> the >> precursors to the Celtic languages, out of southern >> Russia. R1a, as well all know, didn't make huge >> inroads into Western Europe. At some point, their >> cultural and linguistic traditions were absorbed by >> the Rlb's (and I's and J's and E3b's and G's) >> already >> inhabiting that area of Europe. >> >> But that doesn't make them any less "Celtic," just >> because they are R1b rather than R1a. Can you >> elaborate on what you mean by "Celtic culture has no >> legacy today"? >> >> As far as I know, the Irish place great emphasis on >> protecting and encouraging the learning of the Irish >> language. The Scottish and Welsh are equally >> protective and proud of their Celtic heritage and >> languages. So I find you statement regarding Celtic >> culture today to be largely unsupported by the >> traditions of these peoples. >> >> Ellen Coffman >> >> >> --- "Donald N. Yates, Ph.D." >> <dpy@dnaconsultants.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi! >>> >>> I don't want to open up the floodgates of dogma on >>> this list but as a historian I have to correct the >>> generalization that France, Spain and Scotland are >>> "Keltic." It may be true that Celtic populations >>> lived in those modern countries during different >>> centuries in pre-history but if you take a >>> diachronistic view backward (which is all we're >>> allowed to do with matches in the YHRD) the >>> populations in all cases are extremely mixed >> today, >>> with R1b dominant. IMHO, R1b probably only became >> so >>> in the medieval and modern period. Whether it is >>> Celtic is moot. It makes more sense that the modal >>> haplogroup was R1a since the Celts have traditions >>> of coming from "Scythia," which would correspond >> to >>> the Balkan refugium of this haplogroup's origin. >> I'm >>> by no means persuaded Celtic culture has any >> legacy >>> today beyond what was revived by Victorian and >>> Francophile antiquarians of the nineteenth >> century. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> Donald N. Yates, Ph.D. >>> DNA Consulting >>> http://www.dnaconsultants.com >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: OllamFolla@aol.com >>> To: GENEALOGY-DNA-L@rootsweb.com >>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 2:39 PM >>> Subject: Re: [DNA] "Celtisized" R1bs from >>> Continent To the British Isles Circa 1000-60... >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 9/24/2004 1:47:54 PM Eastern >>> Daylight Time, >>> fauxdk@comcast.net writes: >>> >>> >>>> to France, Spain, >>>>> and Latin America. >>>> >>> france spain and scotland are all keltic >>> >>> Jim Denning >>> "Remember the days of old, consider the years of >>> many generations. Ask your >>> father, and he will show you; your elders, and >>> they will tell you." -- >>> Deuteronomy 32:7 (NKJV) >>> >>> >> > === message truncated === > > > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 >