Hi list. A question, if I move to a new area in 1860 and say my name is Joe Bloggs and this is my family ... and ... Do I have to prove it? what do I have to prove it? is it just generally accepted that I'm not a liar and that my name is Joe Bloggs , I may have some papers but I can't read or write so is that proof ? Reason for the question is that I have a Thomas Archer TOWELL b 1809 in Bawdeswell Norfolk, in 1848 using full name m Rebecca BUTCHER in Coventry. In 1851 and on the wedding of step daughter Maria KEENE in 1860 he drops the Towell and is just Thomas ARCHER, but on the 1861 he drops the Archer as does Rebecca his wife so he is now Thomas Towell. 1871 don't know yet but on the 81 he's Thomas Towell again. Was it possible in those days just to switch identity at will ? Cheers for now Gareth

Hi Gareth and fellow listers. In response to your question Gareth, I have one of my husbands ancestors who used either his surname or his middle name. Incidentally, for a few generations later it became a double barrell surname - something quite unusual during those years. In this case he was initially a Major - illigitimate son of Mary - but later papa must have realized he had a pretty good son in this young man and he became a Cluett and later Major-Cluett. In my experience it wasn't usual for "base born" children of even children from very early de facto relationships to take the fathers name. Cheers Adrienne On 8/5/07, Gareth <everitt@xs4all.nl> wrote: > > Hi list. > A question, if I move to a new area in 1860 and say my name is Joe Bloggs > and this is my family ... and ... Do I have to prove it? what do I have to > prove it? is it just generally accepted that I'm not a liar and that my name > is Joe Bloggs , I may have some papers but I can't read or write so is that > proof ? > Reason for the question is that I have a Thomas Archer TOWELL b 1809 in > Bawdeswell Norfolk, in 1848 using full name m Rebecca BUTCHER in Coventry. > In 1851 and on the wedding of step daughter Maria KEENE in 1860 he drops the > Towell and is just Thomas ARCHER, but on the 1861 he drops the Archer as > does Rebecca his wife so he is now Thomas Towell. 1871 don't know yet but on > the 81 he's Thomas Towell again. Was it possible in those days just to > switch identity at will ? > Cheers for now > Gareth > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Gareth Simple answer, yes you could The need for officialdom to know your name, age etc (with proof) would be much later (pensions etc) There was no check done on you when you filled in a census form, or when getting married etc so he could call himself what he wanted to Proving who he was would only be important if he needed to for some reason (inheritance for example) Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) > Hi list. > A question, if I move to a new area in 1860 and say my name is Joe Bloggs > and this is my family ... and ... Do I have to prove it? what do I have > to prove it? is it just generally accepted that I'm not a liar and that my > name is Joe Bloggs , I may have some papers but I can't read or write so > is that proof ? > Reason for the question is that I have a Thomas Archer TOWELL b 1809 in > Bawdeswell Norfolk, in 1848 using full name m Rebecca BUTCHER in Coventry. > In 1851 and on the wedding of step daughter Maria KEENE in 1860 he drops > the Towell and is just Thomas ARCHER, but on the 1861 he drops the Archer > as does Rebecca his wife so he is now Thomas Towell. 1871 don't know yet > but on the 81 he's Thomas Towell again. Was it possible in those days just > to switch identity at will ? > Cheers for now > Gareth

Hi Gareth, > A question, if I move to a new area in 1860 and say my name is > Joe Bloggs and this is my family ... and ... Do I have to prove it? > what do I have to prove it? > is it just generally accepted that I'm not a liar and that my name > is Joe Bloggs , I may have some papers but I can't read or write > so is that proof ? The Quick Answers to your 4 questions are 1) No - unless (perhaps) you're trying to claim Poor Law Relief from that new Parish's Union. 2) Nothing - the Union Authorities would do the back-checking to confirm which Union they'd have you returned to - and to charge them for any expenditure.... 3) Yes 4) Probably not applicable >Reason for the question is that I have a Thomas Archer TOWELL b 1809 in > Bawdeswell Norfolk, in 1848 using full name m Rebecca BUTCHER > in Coventry. This seems pretty fair - *HE* was marrying, and likely knew his own full name, and as this was a solemn declaration before God, he'd be more likely to be careful to get it right. > In 1851 and on the wedding of step daughter Maria KEENE in 1860 > he drops the Towell and is just Thomas ARCHER, Do you KNOW that he was present at the step-daughter's marriage? For it sounds here as if this is what *SHE* said her step-father's name was. [Although a step-father doesn't really count when completing the "father's name" box in any case.] And as TAT had married a BUTCHER, how come her daughter's surname was KEENE??? > but on the 1861 he drops the Archer as does Rebecca his wife so he is now > Thomas Towell. 1) I can't see why Rebecca would've included ARCHER among her given names in any case. 2) In the absence of the Householder's Forms for the 1861, one can't tell who may have completed his form. (It could've been done by the Enumerator who'd asked the person next door...) Equally, who ever gives an Enumerator a "fully honest" set of answers to the dam-fool questions they ask? If you were in the UK for the 2001 shambles-census you could put anything you liked, which many did... 3) Tom TOWELL was who he was and (presumably) what everybody knew him as being, which was more than good enough for Government Work. > 1871 don't know yet but on the 81 he's Thomas Towell again. See 1861 above.... > Was it possible in those days just to switch identity at will ? 1) I can't see - from the information you've given - that he ever did... 2) But even if he had, it'd be perfectly legal - even today - merely to drop a Middle Name. [Granted, there'd be bureaucratic difficulties NOW, but it's still legal to do so - AS LONG AS it's not for the purposes of Fraud, which was the case then, too.] "You are who you say you are" - and it's (still) up to the Authorities to try to prove that you're Somebody Else :-) HTH Gus

Hi Gus and list Many thanks. Maria was ( I think ) born illegitimate with mother Rebecca KEENE on the IGI 9/8/1836, on the 1841 she is called Maria Keene ASTON her mother Rebecca is now Rebecca BUTCHER and they are staying with Rebecca's sister Jane ASTON nee KEENE. Rebecca KEENE married Joseph BUTCHER in 1840, had William and Mark and married again in 1848 to Thomas Archer TOWELL presumably Joseph BUTCHER was dead or divorced by this time. On the 1851 they are listed as Thomas ARCHER, Rebecca ARCHER and William and Mark BUTCHER. At Maria KEENE's wedding the father is Thomas ARCHER but he is not present, he was married to her mother so technically he was her "father". On the 1861 they are listed as Thomas TOWELL, Rebecca TOWELL, Mark BUTCHER and Emily and Emma TOWELL. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gus Tysoe" <gustysoe@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Gareth" <everitt@xs4all.nl>; <WARWICK@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [WAR] identity ? > Hi Gareth, > >> A question, if I move to a new area in 1860 and say my name is >> Joe Bloggs and this is my family ... and ... Do I have to prove it? >> what do I have to prove it? >> is it just generally accepted that I'm not a liar and that my name >> is Joe Bloggs , I may have some papers but I can't read or write >> so is that proof ? > The Quick Answers to your 4 questions are > 1) No - unless (perhaps) you're trying to claim Poor Law Relief from that > new Parish's Union. > 2) Nothing - the Union Authorities would do the back-checking to confirm > which Union they'd have you returned to - and to charge them for any > expenditure.... > 3) Yes > 4) Probably not applicable > > >>Reason for the question is that I have a Thomas Archer TOWELL b 1809 in >> Bawdeswell Norfolk, in 1848 using full name m Rebecca BUTCHER >> in Coventry. > This seems pretty fair - *HE* was marrying, and likely knew his own full > name, and as this was a solemn declaration before God, he'd be more likely > to be careful to get it right. > >> In 1851 and on the wedding of step daughter Maria KEENE in 1860 >> he drops the Towell and is just Thomas ARCHER, > Do you KNOW that he was present at the step-daughter's marriage? For it > sounds here as if this is what *SHE* said her step-father's name was. > [Although a step-father doesn't really count when completing the "father's > name" box in any case.] And as TAT had married a BUTCHER, how come her > daughter's surname was KEENE??? > >> but on the 1861 he drops the Archer as does Rebecca his wife so he is now >> Thomas Towell. > 1) I can't see why Rebecca would've included ARCHER among her given names > in any case. > 2) In the absence of the Householder's Forms for the 1861, one can't tell > who may have completed his form. (It could've been done by the Enumerator > who'd asked the person next door...) Equally, who ever gives an Enumerator > a > "fully honest" set of answers to the dam-fool questions they ask? If you > were in the UK for the 2001 shambles-census you could put anything you > liked, which many did... > 3) Tom TOWELL was who he was and (presumably) what everybody knew him as > being, which was more than good enough for Government Work. > >> 1871 don't know yet but on the 81 he's Thomas Towell again. > See 1861 above.... > >> Was it possible in those days just to switch identity at will ? > 1) I can't see - from the information you've given - that he ever did... > 2) But even if he had, it'd be perfectly legal - even today - merely to > drop a Middle Name. [Granted, there'd be bureaucratic difficulties NOW, > but > it's still legal to do so - AS LONG AS it's not for the purposes of Fraud, > which was the case then, too.] > > "You are who you say you are" - and it's (still) up to the Authorities to > try to prove that you're Somebody Else :-) > > > HTH > > Gus >

Hi Gareth, Judging by that baptism entry in Coventry, Maria looks to be pretty definitely illegitimate - but you'd need to look at the register entry for additional information. The IGI entry is an "extracted item" so the bare details it includes are *probably* correct. The 1841 entry is somewhat confusing - but the 1841 was semi-experimental in any case, omitting as it does all relationships within the household. Maria could have been included as an ASTON by a confused enumerator! Rebecca KEENE would appear to've married Joseph BUTCHER in Northampton [1840 Dec ¼; 15 573], and had 2 children by him - 1) William - who MAY be William Philip born Coventry [1841Mar ¼; 16 367] 2) Mark - born Coventry [1846 Jun ¼; 16 426]. There were no Joseph BUTCHER Deaths (on FreeBMD) in Northamptonshire or Warwickshire 1841-48 (although there were a fair few dotted around the country in the period) There WAS one in Nuneaton District - but not until LATE 1848... Of course FreeBMD may not yet be complete for the 1840s - you need to do a Full Trawl of the Complete GRO Deaths Indexes. Rebecca BUTCHER married Thomas Archer TOWELL in Coventry [1848 Mar ¼; 16 364]. In 1851 the family was shown as: Thomas ARCHER Head M 40 M Brick Layer Bargewell-Nfk Rebecca ARCHER Wife M 35 F Dress Maker Coventry-War William BUTCHER Son - 11 M Errand Boy Coventry-War Mark BUTCHER Son - 5 M Scholar Coventry-War Address: Well St, Coventry Holy Trinity, Coventry, WAR PRO Reference: HO/107/2068 Folio: 49 Page: 1 "Son" should - probably - have been "step son" or "son in law". The current failure to trace a death for Joseph BUTCHER doesn't *necessarily* mean that he didn't die... 1) he could be one of the 'far-flung' ones, and Rebecca returned "home" with the children; 2) he may have died or been killed "away from home" - deaths are registered where they occur, NOT where the deceased normally resides; 3) he may have been found guilty of a fairly serious offence, and transported; or 4) the couple may just have split up .... Divorce can almost certainly be ruled out - it was far beyond the means of almost all but the Seriously Rich. If it was either 3 or 4, then Rebecca's marriage to Tom TOWELL would have been bigamous. By no means uncommon at that time, for it'd be hard to detect (especially in a big city) other than by sheer mischance (or a malicious neighbour informing the authorities...) HTH Gus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gareth" <everitt@xs4all.nl> To: "Gus Tysoe" <gustysoe@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: <WARWICK@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [WAR] identity ? Hi Gus and list Many thanks. Maria was ( I think ) born illegitimate with mother Rebecca KEENE on the IGI 9/8/1836, on the 1841 she is called Maria Keene ASTON her mother Rebecca is now Rebecca BUTCHER and they are staying with Rebecca's sister Jane ASTON nee KEENE. Rebecca KEENE married Joseph BUTCHER in 1840, had William and Mark and married again in 1848 to Thomas Archer TOWELL presumably Joseph BUTCHER was dead or divorced by this time. On the 1851 they are listed as Thomas ARCHER, Rebecca ARCHER and William and Mark BUTCHER. At Maria KEENE's wedding the father is Thomas ARCHER but he is not present, he was married to her mother so technically he was her "father". On the 1861 they are listed as Thomas TOWELL, Rebecca TOWELL, Mark BUTCHER and Emily and Emma TOWELL.