very interesting replies. Clearly the opportunities for identity theft were already being used. Presumably, you could acquire somebody else's birth cert or bribe a person to prove who you were. My grandfather's army records show that he was born any year between 1873 and 1882. He appears in only one census 1911. The ages which appear in the census, his marriage certificate, his army records ( more than one )and death certificate all vary. An example: in the 1911 census he is five years younger than when he married! Bob Holmes On 26/07/2012 08:01, warwick-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. 1874 and beyond (Robert Holmes) > 2. Re: 1874 and beyond (Nivard Ovington) > 3. Re: 1874 and beyond (ramaix) > 4. Re: 1874 and beyond (Bob Douglas) > 5. Re: 1874 and beyond (Jan Rockett) > 6. Re: 1874 and beyond (Dennis Corbett .) > 7. Re: 1874 and beyond (Connie) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 13:31:54 +0100 > From: Robert Holmes <holmes@holmesr923.plus.com> > Subject: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > To: warwick@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <500FE73A.8030500@holmesr923.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I read quite recently that about 1874 it became the duty of parents to > report a birth rather than the registar going in search of birth. My > grandfather was born around 1873 and may therefore have been one of the > 30 percent of unreported births. Question is how did they get a pension > assuming they lived to 65? Was a birth cert required ; could they > register retrospectively etc > > > Bob Holmes in tropical Axbridge > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 14:36:46 +0100 > From: Nivard Ovington <ovington1@sky.com> > Subject: Re: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > To: warwick@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <500FF66E.6050002@sky.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi Bob > > The powers that be used other means to prove the birth date claimed > > Census in some cases or baptism, but also signed declarations, Army > records etc > > If you think about it, if there were retrospective birth registration > they would still have to prove it in the same way > > Apart from the obvious missing the registration, was he born to married > parents or even to those parents, there was no official adoption system > in England until 1927 > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > On 25/07/2012 13:31, Robert Holmes wrote: >> I read quite recently that about 1874 it became the duty of parents to >> report a birth rather than the registar going in search of birth. My >> grandfather was born around 1873 and may therefore have been one of the >> 30 percent of unreported births. Question is how did they get a pension >> assuming they lived to 65? Was a birth cert required ; could they >> register retrospectively etc >> >> >> Bob Holmes in tropical Axbridge > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:59:04 +0200 (CEST) > From: ramaix <ramaix@orange.fr> > Subject: Re: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > To: warwick@rootsweb.com, Robert Holmes <holmes@holmesr923.plus.com> > Message-ID: <669174714.14357.1343224744973.JavaMail.www@wwinf1f22> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > It's obvious from the frequency of wrong ages on marriage and death certificates that until relatively recently birth certificates were not required to be produced when registering those events. Many young men also claimed to be older than they were when joining the army or navy, so they couldn't have been required to present proof or age either. Lots more things were taken on trust in those days, and even in living memory. It should also be said that pension entitlements for most people were very minimal, so a few errors would have been peanuts compared with today's benefit fraud. > > MAR in France. > > > > >> Message du 25/07/12 14:33 >> De : "Robert Holmes" >> A : warwick@rootsweb.com >> Copie ? : >> Objet : [WAR] 1874 and beyond >> >> I read quite recently that about 1874 it became the duty of parents to >> report a birth rather than the registar going in search of birth. My >> grandfather was born around 1873 and may therefore have been one of the >> 30 percent of unreported births. Question is how did they get a pension >> assuming they lived to 65? Was a birth cert required ; could they >> register retrospectively etc >> >> >> Bob Holmes in tropical Axbridge >> ------------------------------- >> List archives are at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/WARWICK >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:46:04 +0100 > From: "Bob Douglas" <bob@cotswan.com> > Subject: Re: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > To: <warwick@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <E129AD9BB33D4C07AF461CE665F60281@NEW> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > He may have been able to get a certified copy of baptism > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: warwick-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:warwick-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Robert Holmes > Sent: 25 July 2012 13:32 > To: warwick@rootsweb.com > Subject: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > > I read quite recently that about 1874 it became the duty of parents to > report a birth rather than the registar going in search of birth. My > grandfather was born around 1873 and may therefore have been one of the > 30 percent of unreported births. Question is how did they get a pension > assuming they lived to 65? Was a birth cert required ; could they > register retrospectively etc > > > Bob Holmes in tropical Axbridge > ------------------------------- > List archives are at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/WARWICK > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 23:12:16 +0100 > From: "Jan Rockett" <jan.rockett@ntlworld.com> > Subject: Re: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > To: <warwick@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <EAAB170D2D1341EAA93789ADC37120CB@JanPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Pensions came in 1 January 1909 and a man had to be 70. lived here for 20 > years and be a British subject > and it was means tested. > Here is a table > he pension was paid as follows: > ?21 p/a Rate of Pension 5s p/w. (25p) > ?21 to ?23 12s 6d p/a Rate of Pension 4s p/w. (20p) > ?23 12s 6d to ?26 5s p/a Rate of Pension 3s p/w. (15p) > ?26 5s to ?28 17s 6b p/a Rate of Pension 2s p/w. (10p) > ?28 17s 6b to ?31 10s p/a Rate of Pension 1s p/w. (5p) > > National insurance came a few years later. They sent forms out and > presumably you had to prove your work record. > > Are you sure he wasnt registered? > > > Jan > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Douglas > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:46 PM > To: warwick@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > > He may have been able to get a certified copy of baptism > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: warwick-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:warwick-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Robert Holmes > Sent: 25 July 2012 13:32 > To: warwick@rootsweb.com > Subject: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > > I read quite recently that about 1874 it became the duty of parents to > report a birth rather than the registar going in search of birth. My > grandfather was born around 1873 and may therefore have been one of the > 30 percent of unreported births. Question is how did they get a pension > assuming they lived to 65? Was a birth cert required ; could they > register retrospectively etc > > > Bob Holmes in tropical Axbridge > ------------------------------- > List archives are at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/WARWICK > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > List archives are at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/WARWICK > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:49:11 +0000 > From: "Dennis Corbett ." <dennis@denniscorbett.com> > Subject: Re: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > To: <warwick@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <CC35C4C3.AC5A%dennis@denniscorbett.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > My grandfather was born in 1870 and never registered. Just prior to WW! > His former schoolmaster wrote a letter to the authorities explaining how > ill health had prevented his mother from registering the birth within the > prescribed period. Included in the letter was a handwritten transcript of > the baptism entry from the church record. The letter, which I have, is > accompanied by a second one from the schoolmaster to my grandfather > explaining that he cannot register in retrospect but that the one provided > will provide him with protection from the authorities should they decide > to call him up as being of service age - which at 44 he wasn't! > > Dennis > > ------------------------------------ > > > On 25/07/2012 12:31, "Robert Holmes" <holmes@holmesr923.plus.com> wrote: > >> I read quite recently that about 1874 it became the duty of parents to >> report a birth rather than the registar going in search of birth. My >> grandfather was born around 1873 and may therefore have been one of the >> 30 percent of unreported births. Question is how did they get a pension >> assuming they lived to 65? Was a birth cert required ; could they >> register retrospectively etc >> >> >> Bob Holmes in tropical Axbridge >> ------------------------------- >> List archives are at >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/WARWICK >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 01:08:55 +0100 > From: Connie <connie.sparrer@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [WAR] 1874 and beyond > To: warwick@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <50108A97.5080002@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Jan Rockett wrote: >> Pensions came in 1 January 1909 and a man had to be 70. lived here for 20 >> years and be a British subject >> and it was means tested. > Hallo > > I heard that many of those entitled to a pension refused to claim it > as they "didn't want charity". > > Connie in London > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the WARWICK list administrator, send an email to > WARWICK-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the WARWICK mailing list, send an email to WARWICK@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of WARWICK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 117 > *************************************** >