Ah yes, the "expert"... an "ex" is a has been....a "spert" is a drip under pressure... better spoken than written <g> Some archive staff seem to have difficulty reading well-formed Victorian hands let alone anything else!!! An added problem in some, only some, archives seems to be that unless a staff member has a formal qualification to, in this instance, read old handwriting, they are not allowed to try to help. Unofficially one staff member said it was "in case they got it wrong and were sued". Barmy, or what?!? Fortunately, my nearest archive has not bowed to such extreme attitudes...and I hope they never do! Jacqui ----- Original Message ----- From: ramaix To: Jacqui Simkins ; warwick@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [WAR] Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! I agree with Jacqui - while it helps to know a bit about Latin, the classical Latin we learnt at school is not much use for reading the debased church Latin used in documents and on tombstones, particularly in the post-mediaeval and post-reformation periods. Some of the clerks lapse into English after the first sentence and others pepper the document with English words they don't know how to translate, while most of the word endings become squiggles to disguise the fact they don't know which case to use. At a Record Office that shall remain nameless, I overheard the person in charge tell someone who asked for help that they had no-one qualified to transcribe difficult old documents in English or to translate from Latin, so if you have a smattering of Latin and know a bit about deciphering old handwriting, you are already one step ahead of the supposed "experts"! MAR in France. > Message du 08/06/07 11:47 > De : "Jacqui Simkins" > A : "Charani" , warwick@rootsweb.com > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [WAR] Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! > > Some of the old documents are written in poor Latin...my theory is that this was a deliberate ploy by the clerks to show they "knew more" than the rest of the population...!! So they wrote in their own form of Latin....result - impossible to translate! > > Read between the lines is what I was once told to do... > > Jacqui > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charani > To: warwick@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:32 AM > Subject: Re: [WAR] Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! > > > A P L wrote: > > > amamus amatis amant > > > > - I couldn't resist showing off!! Miss ROBERTSON be overwhelmed!! > > :)) > > > But what is palaeography? That is definitely GREEK to me? > > It is Greek. It's the study of old handwriting. Mind you, some of > the documents are double Dutch to me. > > -- > Charani (UK) > > ----------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07/06/2007 14:21 > > >--- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > maraix ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07/06/2007 14:21

Faith There was a Documentary on TVNZ, about 2 years ago , telling of possible origins of all Celtish People. They put forward the idea , and did have some valid evidence , that the race originated in an area around the mouth of the Danube, and also NW of there. Helen New Zealand -----Original Message----- From: warwick-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:warwick-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Faith Capnerhurst Sent: Friday, 8 June 2007 5:54 p.m. To: warwick@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [WAR] Origins Hi Listers, My daughter, Brittany, has been reading a thick book of English history, and she has asked me a question that I am not able to answer, so thought I would throw it out to you. While not dealing exclusively with Warwickshire perhaps, it does deal with British origins. >From the book, A History Of England and the British Empire by Walter Phelps Hall, my daughter read the following sentence: "The last of these early invaders were the so-called Celts, the first of five conquerors--Celt Roman Saxon Dane and Norman--about whom there is some written knowledge." First of all, we found this sentence to be a bit confusing--how could they be the last *and* the first? Does anyone know where the Celts came from? Are they Irish? Scots? Welsh? or English? or perhaps their blood flows in all Britts' veins? The book says that no one knows where they came from, but I figured since this was written in 1953 that perhaps something had been discovered since then. Worth a try, right? Any input welcome. Regards, Faith Capnerhurst On floodwatch in hopefully not too sunny Chilliwack, BC, Canada researching CAPNERHURST/CAPENHURST, CHADD, CARRINGTON, SMITH, CLARK(E) & ALLEN >From: "Wendy Boland" <wendy.boland@bigpond.com> >To: <warwick@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [WAR] Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! >Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 11:14:54 +1000 > >Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! > >G'day All. > >Do you remember how to conjugate a verb or did you flunk Latin as I did? >amo amas amat - is about all I remember- sorry Mr Holland . > >I see the National Archives has a tutorial available online for those who >wish to experience the torture they missed out on in High School! > >http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/latin/beginners/tutorial/default.htm > >There is also a course on Palaeography 1500 to 1800 >http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/ > >That should keep you all very busy for the rest of June! > >There will be a twenty minute oral test and a 2 hour written examination >at the end of this email <grin> >Cheers >Wendy >Warwick List Admin. > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail. Now with better security, storage and features. www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA149 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi All Here is a site you may be interested in .........._http://freereg.rootsweb.com/howto/latinwords.htm_ (http://freereg.rootsweb.com/howto/latinwords.htm) ....which gives you some translated Latin words, used in parish records. Hope this helps some of you. REgards Yvonne

In FreeBMD there is a marriage of a Hannah Malin in the December quarter 1850 in the Warwick Registration District. There are four prospective grooms, Beal, Jaggard, Satchwell and Taplin (which is odd as there are only three brides, something misplaced somewhere). In the 1851 census there is an entry Head: BEAL, Richard Neighbors 325999 Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace Richard BEAL Head M 31 M Ag Lab Warmington-War Hannah BEAL Wife M 30 F --- Wappenbury-War Henry BEAL Son - 9 M Scholar Wappenbury-War Address: Pepper Alley, --- Census Place: Kenilworth Kenilworth, Warwickshire PRO Reference: HO/107/2073 Folio: 116 Page: 3 FHL Film: 0087339 If the birth/marriage is after July 1837 this is a fairly straightforward way to find someone: look in FreeBMD, and then look in the next census. It would have been interesting if you had told us how you know that Michael Lalor was Henry's father. If it was on a birth certificate, at that time the father, if not married to the mother, could be named as father without his consent, and possibly without his knowledge. Later he could be named only if he consented. A woman could, and some did, name a man they hoped to marry, whether he was the father or not. And some women genuinely did not know who the father was. Hope this helps you follow up this family. David kazig wrote: > Hi All, > I'm new to this list but not to genealogy,i have come across some scandal > within my Lalor family. > In 1843 Walter was born to Michael & Eliza[nee Simions] Lalor,Michael was a > policeman & born in Ireland. > A year before Michael became a dad to Walter he became a dad to Henry,but > the mother was not Eliza!!! Henry was born in Wappenbury & the mother was > Hannah Malin & she was not married to Henry's father Michael,she was also > born in Wappenbury & she was age 19 or 20 when she had Henry. Since Henry > was born there & also the exciting news on Hannah nothing concrete has been > found on either of them,did Hannah marry & her new husband take on Henry,did > he die,did she abandon him? Questions that i can't answer,but is there > someone that can? > Thanks. > Kaz. > > > > "Genealogy -disturbing the dead,and irritating the living" > > > Still looking for; > Ashford- Moar,Canning,Field,Flagg,Gardner,Gardiner,Hanny, > Hayes,Houghton,Jolly,Keeley,Lalor,Marlow,McGill,Mould,Matthews,Phillips, > Rogers,Rowlands,Treasize, and Twissell > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- David Franks, Cambridge, England Researching Castle and Tallis, Warwickshire and Oxfordshire, and Thomas Castle, convict transported to Van Diemen’s Land Warwickshire Online Parish Clerks http://www.hunimex.com/warwick/opc/opc.html

<<<Does anyone know where the Celts came from?>>> G"day Faith Perhaps a google search might give you a greater understanding - example http://www.britainexpress.com/History/Celtic_Britain.htm I think this topic may be better discussed on a British History mailing list or Forum rather than as a Warwickshire Family History topic, so I suggest that the answers to this question be sent OFF list please unless the vast majority of subscribers wail loudly ! However , erudite answers from the "extremely knowledgeable" History Profs on the List might get by me okay <grin> I just don't think the rest of us rehashing our distant memories of history lessons at school is going to be useful. Thank you Wendy Boland Warwick List Admin.

Hi All, I'm new to this list but not to genealogy,i have come across some scandal within my Lalor family. In 1843 Walter was born to Michael & Eliza[nee Simions] Lalor,Michael was a policeman & born in Ireland. A year before Michael became a dad to Walter he became a dad to Henry,but the mother was not Eliza!!! Henry was born in Wappenbury & the mother was Hannah Malin & she was not married to Henry's father Michael,she was also born in Wappenbury & she was age 19 or 20 when she had Henry. Since Henry was born there & also the exciting news on Hannah nothing concrete has been found on either of them,did Hannah marry & her new husband take on Henry,did he die,did she abandon him? Questions that i can't answer,but is there someone that can? Thanks. Kaz. "Genealogy -disturbing the dead,and irritating the living" Still looking for; Ashford- Moar,Canning,Field,Flagg,Gardner,Gardiner,Hanny, Hayes,Houghton,Jolly,Keeley,Lalor,Marlow,McGill,Mould,Matthews,Phillips, Rogers,Rowlands,Treasize, and Twissell

Jacqui Simkins wrote: > Some of the old documents are written in poor Latin...my theory is that this was a deliberate ploy by the clerks to show they "knew more" than the rest of the population...!! So they wrote in their own form of Latin....result - impossible to translate! > > Read between the lines is what I was once told to do... I can just about manage to translate baptisms and Anglicise names but that's about my lot. -- Charani (UK)

Jacqui Simkins wrote: > But having a pocket Latin-English dictionary in the research kit is > very useful because I soon discovered that archive staff rarely > know even basics!!!! On one occasion, it was a phrase used in an > archive's own calendars...and nobody, not even the head honcho, > knew what it meant. I was very surprised to learn earlier this week that Latin is no longer a requirement for archivists with the result that you've found - no one can help with the older Latin documents. I'm lucky with one of my local record offices in that there are *two* archivists, both in their late 20s, who both have Latin. > Family historians who didn't have to suffer study of Latin in > school may find one of the books such as "Latin for Family > Historians" of more help. There are several with similar titles - > a trawl on GenFair should come up with the goods!! Thanks for the tip. It could well be worth getting a copy of that for myself if the record office doesn't have a copy on their shelves already. -- Charani (UK)

I agree with Jacqui - while it helps to know a bit about Latin, the classical Latin we learnt at school is not much use for reading the debased church Latin used in documents and on tombstones, particularly in the post-mediaeval and post-reformation periods. Some of the clerks lapse into English after the first sentence and others pepper the document with English words they don't know how to translate, while most of the word endings become squiggles to disguise the fact they don't know which case to use. At a Record Office that shall remain nameless, I overheard the person in charge tell someone who asked for help that they had no-one qualified to transcribe difficult old documents in English or to translate from Latin, so if you have a smattering of Latin and know a bit about deciphering old handwriting, you are already one step ahead of the supposed "experts"! MAR in France. > Message du 08/06/07 11:47 > De : "Jacqui Simkins" > A : "Charani" , warwick@rootsweb.com > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [WAR] Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! > > Some of the old documents are written in poor Latin...my theory is that this was a deliberate ploy by the clerks to show they "knew more" than the rest of the population...!! So they wrote in their own form of Latin....result - impossible to translate! > > Read between the lines is what I was once told to do... > > Jacqui > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charani > To: warwick@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:32 AM > Subject: Re: [WAR] Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! > > > A P L wrote: > > > amamus amatis amant > > > > - I couldn't resist showing off!! Miss ROBERTSON be overwhelmed!! > > :)) > > > But what is palaeography? That is definitely GREEK to me? > > It is Greek. It's the study of old handwriting. Mind you, some of > the documents are double Dutch to me. > > -- > Charani (UK) > > ----------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07/06/2007 14:21 > > >--- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > maraix

Hi All, Off on my jolly holidays tomorrow, for 2 weeks, so am unsubscribing to avoid my in-box overflowing with all the lovely information that's out there. Happy hunting everyone, Linda -- Check out my Family Tree at: www.tribalpages.com/tribes/lindak53

There are some useful words and phrases at the following: _www.xmission.com/~nelsonb/latin.htm_ (http://www.xmission.com/~nelsonb/latin.htm) Pam T

Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! G'day All. Do you remember how to conjugate a verb or did you flunk Latin as I did? amo amas amat - is about all I remember- sorry Mr Holland . I see the National Archives has a tutorial available online for those who wish to experience the torture they missed out on in High School! http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/latin/beginners/tutorial/default.htm There is also a course on Palaeography 1500 to 1800 http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/ That should keep you all very busy for the rest of June! There will be a twenty minute oral test and a 2 hour written examination at the end of this email <grin> Cheers Wendy Warwick List Admin.

Some of the old documents are written in poor Latin...my theory is that this was a deliberate ploy by the clerks to show they "knew more" than the rest of the population...!! So they wrote in their own form of Latin....result - impossible to translate! Read between the lines is what I was once told to do... Jacqui ----- Original Message ----- From: Charani To: warwick@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [WAR] Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! A P L wrote: > amamus amatis amant > > - I couldn't resist showing off!! Miss ROBERTSON be overwhelmed!! :)) > But what is palaeography? That is definitely GREEK to me? It is Greek. It's the study of old handwriting. Mind you, some of the documents are double Dutch to me. -- Charani (UK) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07/06/2007 14:21

...Mr Holland never got far teaching me, and Vergil was the end of it. Wendy and I have compared notes!! But having a pocket Latin-English dictionary in the research kit is very useful because I soon discovered that archive staff rarely know even basics!!!! On one occasion, it was a phrase used in an archive's own calendars...and nobody, not even the head honcho, knew what it meant. Family historians who didn't have to suffer study of Latin in school may find one of the books such as "Latin for Family Historians" of more help. There are several with similar titles - a trawl on GenFair should come up with the goods!! Jacqui ----- Original Message ----- From: A P L To: wendy.boland@bigpond.com ; warwick@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [WAR] Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! >amo amas amat - is about all I remember- sorry Mr Holland . amamus amatis amant - I couldn't resist showing off!! Miss ROBERTSON be overwhelmed!! But what is palaeography? That is definitely GREEK to me? Anne from Sheffield ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 07/06/2007 14:21

Hi Faith, This might help, look for this book by Peter Berresford Ellis: Celt and Saxon, The Struggle for Britian AD 410-937 FP 1993, RP 1995,6,9, ISBN 0 09473260 4 Quote verbatum: The situation in Britian was often confused. It was far from being the stable, peaceful Roman province so many writers like to imagine. The indigenous Celtic population, the Britions, had not entirely given up hope that one day they would be able to throw off the yolk of Rome......End qoute <perhaps something had been discovered since then> You could look also look on the web for references to "The Amesbury Archer" he was found in 2002. This would take you back to 2,400-2,200 BC and up to date thought on Brit.origins. Regards, Beryl

A P L wrote: > amamus amatis amant > > - I couldn't resist showing off!! Miss ROBERTSON be overwhelmed!! :)) > But what is palaeography? That is definitely GREEK to me? It is Greek. It's the study of old handwriting. Mind you, some of the documents are double Dutch to me. -- Charani (UK)

Hi Faith, This might help, look for this book by Peter Berresford Ellis: Celt and Saxon, The Struggle for Britian AD 410-937 FP 1993, RP 1995,6,9, ISBN 0 09473260 4 Quote verbatum: The situation in Britian was often confused. It was far from being the stable, peaceful Roman province so many writers like to imagine. The indigenous Celtic population, the Britions, had not entirely given up hope that one day they would be able to throw off the yolk of Rome......End qoute <perhaps something had been discovered since then> You could look also look on the web for references to "The Amesbury Archer" he was found in 2002. This would take you back to 2,400-2,200 BC and up to date thought on Brit.origins. Regards, Beryl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Faith Capnerhurst" <fcapnerhurst@msn.com> To: <warwick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 6:54 AM Subject: Re: [WAR] Origins > > Hi Listers, > > My daughter, Brittany, has been reading a thick book of English history, > and > she has asked me a question that I am not able to answer, so thought I > would > throw it out to you. While not dealing exclusively with Warwickshire > perhaps, it does deal with British origins. > >>From the book, A History Of England and the British Empire by Walter >>Phelps > Hall, my daughter read the following sentence: "The last of these early > invaders were the so-called Celts, the first of five conquerors--Celt > Roman > Saxon Dane and Norman--about whom there is some written knowledge." First > of all, we found this sentence to be a bit confusing--how could they be > the > last *and* the first? Does anyone know where the Celts came from? Are > they > Irish? Scots? Welsh? or English? or perhaps their blood flows in all > Britts' > veins? The book says that no one knows where they came from, but I > figured > since this was written in 1953 that perhaps something had been discovered > since then. Worth a try, right? > > Any input welcome. > > Regards, > > Faith Capnerhurst > On floodwatch in hopefully not too sunny Chilliwack, BC, Canada > > > > > > researching CAPNERHURST/CAPENHURST, CHADD, CARRINGTON, SMITH, CLARK(E) & > ALLEN > > > > > >>From: "Wendy Boland" <wendy.boland@bigpond.com> >>To: <warwick@rootsweb.com> >>Subject: [WAR] Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! >>Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 11:14:54 +1000 >> >>Latin lessons for the masochists amongst us! >> >>G'day All. >> >>Do you remember how to conjugate a verb or did you flunk Latin as I did? >>amo amas amat - is about all I remember- sorry Mr Holland . >> >>I see the National Archives has a tutorial available online for those who >>wish to experience the torture they missed out on in High School! >> >>http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/latin/beginners/tutorial/default.htm >> >>There is also a course on Palaeography 1500 to 1800 >>http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/ >> >>That should keep you all very busy for the rest of June! >> >>There will be a twenty minute oral test and a 2 hour written examination >>at the end of this email <grin> >>Cheers >>Wendy >>Warwick List Admin. >> >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>quotes >>in the subject and the body of the message > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Hotmail. Now with better security, storage and features. > www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA149 > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ray, don't forget Aston parish church - St Peter & St Paul. Duddeston being part of Aston and about equidistant from St P&P and St Philip's. Others within distance for burials in 1838 would be St James the less, Ashted; St Mary, Whittall St; Holy Trinity, Bordesley; St John, Deritend and of course St Martin. Alf Eusebius1 wrote: > Hi Gus, > Many thanks for your comments. Firstly let me say that my knowledge of Birmingham > is virtually non existant which was the basis of my original question, which Charles was > kind enough to answer. I see from Alf's reply that St. Matthews is unlikely to have been > the point for lift off for Edward Hudson. So St. Philip's looks more probable at the > moment. > > Ray Hudson Perth, Western Auistralia. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

Hi Gus, Many thanks for your comments. Firstly let me say that my knowledge of Birmingham is virtually non existant which was the basis of my original question, which Charles was kind enough to answer. I see from Alf's reply that St. Matthews is unlikely to have been the point for lift off for Edward Hudson. So St. Philip's looks more probable at the moment. Ray Hudson Perth, Western Auistralia.

>amo amas amat - is about all I remember- sorry Mr Holland . amamus amatis amant - I couldn't resist showing off!! Miss ROBERTSON be overwhelmed!! But what is palaeography? That is definitely GREEK to me? Anne from Sheffield