Hi Heather After 1911 they moved from Worcestershire to Birmingham.(included in ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM list) Leaving Wythall civil parish in Worcestershire with Wythall ecclesiatical parish spanning Worcestershire and Warwickshire. Mike Fisher Wythall,WOR One-Place Genealogical Study http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~wythallindex/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Quineys" <pquiney@post.com> To: <warwick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [WAR] This week's Villages > Do I take it that Kings Heath and Kings Norton are on the Worcestershire > side of the border?! (Why did my ancestors have to be soooo awkward?) > > Heather Q >

I've scanned a photo of Knowle High Street 1920. Can send as a jpg attachment if anyone would like a copy. Barb

Hello I am new to the list and already have read a couple of emails and delighted to find the list of County's which possibly will help me in the furture with my research. I am researching many of my local families here in Mount Druitt, NSW, Australia. One I am having trouble with is a gentleman named JOSEPH JENNENS on his second marriage certificate here in Oz he gives his birth place as Birmingham his age 58. He was married in 1935 and on the certificate his father was William Jennens and his mother Mary Ann Parker. A kind gentleman yesterday told me to check the LDS 1881 Census I found who I believe is my Joseph born circa 1879 Birmingham with a father William their surname is spelt JENNINGS. I am hoping someone would be kind enough to have a look at the 1881 Census and give any further information perhaps mother and siblings. Under dwelling is the following: 12 House 6 Court Fleet Street, Birmingham, Warwick, England. Would this entry on dwelling mean there are 12 houses in the street? If anyone is researching this family I would appreciate hearing I do have some of Joseph's documents in Australia and willing to share. Warm Regard Hazel in Lethbridge Park, NSW

Hi Hazel The name is indexed on Ancestry as JENNING (no S) but the original is definitely JENNENS. William Jennens, Head, Mar, 26, Tin Plate Worker, born Birmingham Sarah Jennens, Wife, 36, born Birmingham Joseph Jennens, son, 2, born Birmingham RG 11, Piece: 3010 Folio: 98 Page: 18 ED 41, Reg. Dist. Birmingham. Sub-Reg Dist. All Saints. Perhaps someone else on the list can explain re the address situation. Regards Ann Cairns,Qld

Marston Green As with Marston Chapel, Hall Green, "The Authorities" are not to be too-heavily relied upon..... There's no doubt as to where Marston Green *IS* - although I've been unable to trace a Map showing the boundaries of the Ecclesiastical Parish at any date - although Kain & Oliver's "Historic Parishes of England & Wales - an electronic map" CDs do show the 1841 (Civil) boundaries. Their map - if accurate - shows the area around Marston Green Station as being a 'lobe' of Bickenhill pushing in between Sheldon, Coleshill and Elmdon. [But Caution is required here - that same map shows the 'detached portion' of Bickenhill as being a detached portion of Elmdon....] OTOH, the 1891 map that Wendy gave the URL for repeatedly locked-up when I attempted to enlarge it to attempt to see any detail - as did Old-Maps version - but as near as I could make out the (Civil) Parish Boundaries were in agreement, and that the area around the Station was in Bickenhill. YOUNGS maintains that the Parish was created in 1939 out of pieces of Coleshill and Sheldon [Ecclesiastical] Parishes - and his entry for Bickenhill makes no mention of a Boundary Change in 1939 (or, for that matter, any alteration at any date involving either Coleshill or Sheldon). In this he would seem to be at least partially in error, in that he omits the 1928 transfer below. But that would explain the absence of Bickenhill from the "creating" parishes. The Victoria County History of WAR (published in 1947) also fails to mention the Parish as such, presumably because publication had been delayed by the War, and the draft had not been updated. However, it does state that "In 1928 Marston Green was separated for ecclesiastical purposes from Bickenhill and united to Sheldon, (fn. 83) and the chapel has been replaced by a large structure of red brick, consecrated in 1938. < http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42651 > [in the section on "Advowson"] - giving no detail of the area so transferred, and stating that the information was supplied by the Vicar of Bickenhill. The VCH' entry for Bickenhill includes the Manors of Marston Culey and Wavers Marston - but without a map its description of the location of Marston Culey makes it appear that it didn't form a part of Marston Green. GoogleMaps adds to the difficulties by showing a "new development" [too new for my A-Z] named Wavers Marston, a little to the West of Brooklands Hospital, and which is in the part of Bickenhill roughly where the VCH would seem to place the Manor. This *may* be confirmatory evidence of its location - as being a resurrection of the old Manor where it belonged, except for "Lyndon Croft" a little to the South of it... *IF* that was also named for the old Lyndon Quarter of Bickenhill, then it's in the wrong part of the Parish altogether, for Lyndon Quarter was today's Olton, Solihull. But, yes - an Amendment to my earlier posting... The Ecclesiastical Parish of Marston Green *did* contain a part of Bickenhill, although it would seem to've been (in area) a relatively small proportion - and at the time of Marston Green's creation was a part of Sheldon Ecclesiastical Parish. Then there's the matter of the Parish Registers for "early" residents of the area which became Marston Green.... They comprise the "simple" ones of Bickenhill, Coleshill and Sheldon. And, in addition, those of the "Chapel of Ease of Bickenhill at Marston Green" - which was apparently licenced for baptisms only. [Many of the entries - which run from 1911 - relate to 'children' at the Birmingham Parish Workhouse Homes (which were described as 'in' Marston Green, but were actually in the Civil Parish of Coleshill, on the site now occupied by Brooklands Hospital).] These are held at Warwick Records Office, and are included with (and filed under) the Registers of the 1939 Parish of St Leonards, Marston Green. Jacqui has - thankfully - dealt with the Wills question, which at least shortens this a little! Gus PS... Wendy - "I'm sorry I'm late with this, Miss, but the cat ate my homework and I had to do it all over again........."

Do I take it that Kings Heath and Kings Norton are on the Worcestershire side of the border?! (Why did my ancestors have to be soooo awkward?) Heather Q Wendy Boland wrote: > I thought we could try all the places beginning with the letter K. this week. > > The full list according to Genuki is > <snip> > Kingsbury > Kings Coughton > Kings Hill > Kingshurst > Kings Newnham > Kings Newton > Kingston > <snip> > Good hunting > Wendy

And one for Kineton photos at http://www.kineton.org.uk/gallery.htm Barb

There's a good site for Keresley at http://www.localhistories.org/keresley.html Barb > > Thinking it might take us several years to get through the County > nominating only one place each week > I thought we could try all the places beginning with the letter K. this > week.

G"day everyone Well the Marstons were the subject of much discussion so this week should be even more fun! Thinking it might take us several years to get through the County nominating only one place each week I thought we could try all the places beginning with the letter K. this week. (shouldn't be too many -I reasoned) I could think of 5 off the top of my head- Kenilworth Knowle Kineton Kingsbury Keresley. How many more can you name without looking them up? The full list according to Genuki is Kenilworth Keresley Kineton Kingsbury Kings Coughton Kings Hill Kingshurst Kings Newnham Kings Newton Kingston Kingswood Kington Kinwalsey Kinwarton Kites Hardwick Knightcote Knightlow Knowle That should elicit a few responses ! So same format as before- Subject line Village People- name of Village List your surnames and dates. Resources and interesting snippets- etc etc. If you have interests in more than one place from the list above it might be wise to list them in separate emails so others can delete if not connected. Good hunting Wendy

Hello Hazel "12 House 6 Court Fleet Street" Fleet Street, Birmingham - like many other streets in English towns and cities in C16-19 - had a number of houses built behind the street frontage properties that were reached by footpaths running between (or even through) the 'front' properties. The groups of houses were known by varying names in differing parts of the country - Courts, Lokes, Snicketts, Entries, Alleys, etc - which could be either numbered or named. [There was a Tysoe's Alley in Tewkesbury, GLS, that ran beside/beneath my 2g-gfthrs shop]. However, as 'names' were apt to be changed when the owner of the frontage-property changed, the Post Office began to insist (shortly after the introduction of the Penny Post in 1840) that all such back-developments in any street be numbered, and to use the same Basic Name. And that the houses in each 'Court' should also be numbered. *Most* of these 'Courts' had been demolished by the 1960s. So your 1881 JENNENs family were living at House No 12, Court No 6, Fleet Street, Birmingham, Warwickshire. A 1:2,500 - or, if you're lucky, a 1:500 - Ordnance Survey Map of the mid 1880s should have it named - as well as all the other Courts off the street. HTH Gus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hazel Magann" <hmagann@bigpond.net.au> To: <WARWICK@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [WAR] JENNENS/JENNINGS Hello I am new to the list and already have read a couple of emails and delighted to find the list of County's which possibly will help me in the furture with my research. I am researching many of my local families here in Mount Druitt, NSW, Australia. One I am having trouble with is a gentleman named JOSEPH JENNENS on his second marriage certificate here in Oz he gives his birth place as Birmingham his age 58. He was married in 1935 and on the certificate his father was William Jennens and his mother Mary Ann Parker. A kind gentleman yesterday told me to check the LDS 1881 Census I found who I believe is my Joseph born circa 1879 Birmingham with a father William their surname is spelt JENNINGS. I am hoping someone would be kind enough to have a look at the 1881 Census and give any further information perhaps mother and siblings. Under dwelling is the following: 12 House 6 Court Fleet Street, Birmingham, Warwick, England. Would this entry on dwelling mean there are 12 houses in the street? If anyone is researching this family I would appreciate hearing I do have some of Joseph's documents in Australia and willing to share. Warm Regard Hazel in Lethbridge Park, NSW ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi All, I realize this may have little to do with Warks, (hope Wendy doesn't get the lash out) but I found a nice online database of early US immigration - http://www.castlegarden.org/index.html Hope that helps any of you that have had ancestors vanish from the county Happy Hunting Pickard Trepess

Hello List After reading Gus's post, it occurred to me that there is confusion over where to find records. You will read in various on-line sources that some WAR parishes were "Worcester diocese" - so you would automatically assume that the wills and probates were at Worcester. For north Warwickshire particularly this would be erroneous - that I know from my own delvings. Much of Warwickshire was within the old Lichfield & Coventry Diocese. A big chunk was handed over to Worcester Diocese in the 1830s (and later, parts of this moved to Coventry and Birmingham dioceses, but we'll not get too confused!). I checked the official words and this is a quote from the "Guide to the Contents of Lichfield Record Office" (my copy published 1999). "Some effects of boundary changes on Lichfield Record Office holdings: Warwickshire: After 1836, the ecclesiastical courts at Lichfield exercised for a time jurisdiction over the parts of Warwickshire which had passed to the diocese of Worcester. As a result, Lichfield Record Office holds wills of Warwickshire testators to 1857..." [then cites an example which is one of the Wills on Pickard's Pink Pages]...Also held are faculty papers such as those for the repewing of Coventry St Michael by Scott and Moffatt in 1847, and parish register *transcripts until, in most cases, the mid-1840s. On the other hand, Warwickshire tithe maps, which date from after 1836, and glebe terriers, which were presumably transferred with the parishes, being legal records of parochial lands and tithes, are not in the Lichfield Record Office." Probates/wills became a civil matter from 1857/8; a number of repositories and some libraries hold the National Probate Index/Calendars on microfiche. * These are commonly referred to as "Bishop's Transcripts" or BTs. HTH Jacqui

Paul, I'd included the point mainly for the benefit of those who may not yet have appreciated the difference between the two sorts of Parish. *I* was around 30 before that particular penny had dropped - when I queried why the *church* was wanting to put street lights in our lane :-) All the best, as usual! Gus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Prescott" <paul@toranean.demon.co.uk> To: "Gus Tysoe" <gustysoe@tiscali.co.uk>; <warwick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Local Government Gus: I knew, of course, that you knew this. And I don't, at all, query your conclusions. I was just - a little mischievously, I confess - criticising the logic that because a place was an ecclesiastical and not a civil parish it was therefore not part of government ;-). Regards - as ever Paul Prescott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gus Tysoe" <gustysoe@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Paul Prescott" <paul@toranean.demon.co.uk>; <warwick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Local Government > Hi Paul, > > I fully agree with all you say - as a General Point - BUT... > > These two - specific - Ecclesiastical Parishes were created after 1900, by > which time Church and State had become widely, if not totally, separated > for > administrative purposes at Parish level. 1911 was the last Census where > any > attention was paid to Ecclesiastical Parishes in the Census Reports - and > then only by way of note. > > Of course they were of importance to the Church of England's > Administration - but not of any real significance to National or Local > Government. > > Gus > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Prescott" <paul@toranean.demon.co.uk> > To: "Gus Tysoe" <gustysoe@tiscali.co.uk>; <warwick@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:42 AM > Subject: Local Government > > > Gus: > >> Neither were (ever) Civil Parishes, and for that >> reason have no Official ["Government"] status or existence. > > There was, of course, "Government" long before the comparatively recent > creation of civil parishes. Cities, towns and boroughs have long had > their > own local government. Outside these, local government was the province of > the manor and of the ecclesiastical parish. For centuries there was > little > distinction between church and state anyway! > > Best wishes > > Paul Prescott > > > >

Hi Paul, I fully agree with all you say - as a General Point - BUT... These two - specific - Ecclesiastical Parishes were created after 1900, by which time Church and State had become widely, if not totally, separated for administrative purposes at Parish level. 1911 was the last Census where any attention was paid to Ecclesiastical Parishes in the Census Reports - and then only by way of note. Of course they were of importance to the Church of England's Administration - but not of any real significance to National or Local Government. Gus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Prescott" <paul@toranean.demon.co.uk> To: "Gus Tysoe" <gustysoe@tiscali.co.uk>; <warwick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:42 AM Subject: Local Government Gus: > Neither were (ever) Civil Parishes, and for that > reason have no Official ["Government"] status or existence. There was, of course, "Government" long before the comparatively recent creation of civil parishes. Cities, towns and boroughs have long had their own local government. Outside these, local government was the province of the manor and of the ecclesiastical parish. For centuries there was little distinction between church and state anyway! Best wishes Paul Prescott

Gus: I knew, of course, that you knew this. And I don't, at all, query your conclusions. I was just - a little mischievously, I confess - criticising the logic that because a place was an ecclesiastical and not a civil parish it was therefore not part of government ;-). Regards - as ever Paul Prescott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gus Tysoe" <gustysoe@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Paul Prescott" <paul@toranean.demon.co.uk>; <warwick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:04 PM Subject: Re: Local Government > Hi Paul, > > I fully agree with all you say - as a General Point - BUT... > > These two - specific - Ecclesiastical Parishes were created after 1900, by > which time Church and State had become widely, if not totally, separated > for > administrative purposes at Parish level. 1911 was the last Census where > any > attention was paid to Ecclesiastical Parishes in the Census Reports - and > then only by way of note. > > Of course they were of importance to the Church of England's > Administration - but not of any real significance to National or Local > Government. > > Gus > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Prescott" <paul@toranean.demon.co.uk> > To: "Gus Tysoe" <gustysoe@tiscali.co.uk>; <warwick@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:42 AM > Subject: Local Government > > > Gus: > >> Neither were (ever) Civil Parishes, and for that >> reason have no Official ["Government"] status or existence. > > There was, of course, "Government" long before the comparatively recent > creation of civil parishes. Cities, towns and boroughs have long had > their > own local government. Outside these, local government was the province of > the manor and of the ecclesiastical parish. For centuries there was > little > distinction between church and state anyway! > > Best wishes > > Paul Prescott > > > >

Gus: > Neither were (ever) Civil Parishes, and for that > reason have no Official ["Government"] status or existence. There was, of course, "Government" long before the comparatively recent creation of civil parishes. Cities, towns and boroughs have long had their own local government. Outside these, local government was the province of the manor and of the ecclesiastical parish. For centuries there was little distinction between church and state anyway! Best wishes Paul Prescott

First off - many thanks to Peter, Jacqui, Alf and Pickard, who between them both put me right and pointed me in the right direction :-) For not all that I wrote in my original postings was true - a salutary warning to all *NEVER* to trust what you're told; what you find on the Internet; and what you read in "Authoritative Books"... At least, not without checking and cross-checking first! What is Right is that both were "only" Ecclesiastical Parishes, and both were created after 1900. Neither were (ever) Civil Parishes, and for that reason have no Official ["Government"] status or existence. What is Wrong is that - contrary to the Parish-researcher's 'Bible' [YOUNGS' "Guide to the Local Administrative Units of England] - Marston Chapel, Hall Green was *NOT* "by 1950s, called Marston Green"... In fairness to the Author, they *are* only some 4 miles apart, a distance that's invisible when looking from Baton Rouge, Louisiana :-) But Mr YOUNGS is not exclusively to blame, for those Two Great Online Helps - Parloc and GENUKI - do little to make a murky pool clear. Both state that Marston Chapel is situated in "Marston", WOR, [Parloc has the valid excuse that its nominal cut-off date was around 1837, when it then was in WOR - and equally-correctly ignores Marston Green altogether because it wasn't established until 1939. (However, this is to be amended - for both parishes - in the next Up-dating...)]. Both their databases started off from Gerald Lawson's Parishes Database - and I'm in no way intending to criticise *his* work because of a tiny blip in one detail. For the Other Works of Referemce that he was likely to have used contain little useful and detailed information.... Phillimore's Atlas is no help either, for although its WOR map includes "Marston" within Yardley, it's merely indicated by a 'spot' - located in the middle of Stechford... [But this is about as close as any part of Yardley ever came to Marston Green!] VCH WOR *does* state that Marston Chapel was in Hall Green - and that it was built using funds provided by a Mr Job Marston - but despite a publication date of 1913, is silent as to its having been created a separate Parish in 1907. Arnold-Foster's "Church Dedications" (1899) shows "Marston - unknown - Worcs" [which possibly may have been the Source -work for Gerald Lawson and Phillimore]. (That "unknown" isn't entirely accurate, either, for it had no dedication until after 1911. It is now The Church of the Ascension, Hall Green.) Despite its inclusion in the 1851 Census of Religious Worship, the Census Reports from 1861 to 1901, in their tables of Ecclesiastical Parishes, ignore the Chapel. But 1911 merely lists "Hall Green, 1907" - without a dedication. [Later Censuses didn't cover the CofE...] Which, I feel deals adequately with Marston Chapel - we can all now ignore it as having nothing to do with Last Week's Exercise! Marston Green, though, is another matter - to be dealt with separately, as this alone is far too long... Gus

Pickard Trepess Thank you for that site l have just found a couple of TOMLINSONS l have been looking for for some time. A nd yes, they did marry in England!!! now to find when and where. Again thank you. Margaret Castle Brom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pickard Trepess" <> To: "Warwick list" <> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:47 PM Subject: [WAR] Early USA immigration data > Hi All, > > I realize this may have little to do with Warks, (hope Wendy doesn't get > the > lash out) but I found a nice online database of early US immigration - > http://www.castlegarden.org/index.html > > Hope that helps any of you that have had ancestors vanish from the county > > Happy Hunting > > Pickard Trepess > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > WARWICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Hi All, Re the recent discussion about the The Times online. If any one has problems in accessing the online archives through their local library, I'm willing to do look ups within reason through my own subscription. Common surnames are likely to throw up hundreds of hits, so I would need as much detail as possible about the person, event & location etc. For example, I don't have the spare time to do " Are there any BROWNS between 1840 & 1900?", but will happily have a go at any " Samuel BROWN plus death/murder/medal/ or anything else exciting, plus dates" Barb Stacey Solihull UK

Hello List Wendy has generously allowed this plea for volunteers. NNWFHS is running the North Warwickshire Marriages project (NoWMI). The Society is a relatively small one in membership, but works hard to bring data in affordable formats for family historians. Volunteers need a computer with a spreadsheet and access to a parish register (on film, fiche or whatever providing it is an impression of the original). The project is a full abstraction of all data into a spreadsheet. The ultimate aim is to produce data for the whole of north Warwickshire, but we accept there may be interim publications - unless we have many volunteers. You can live anywhere in the world and help. I am co-ordinating the project and have a template spreadsheet along with some short notes to help volunteers. If you have already extracted marriage data for any of the parishes and are willing to share it, I am happy to receive it convert into the format we are using. The initial thrust is on the 1813-1837 registers, but if you have a desire to work on an other period, that is fine, but we need to know who is doing what to save duplication. The more who help, the quicker we can produce data – and hopefully help to find not only those “lost” marriages, but also the additional information about witnesses, banns/licence, who signed or who “made their mark”; the critical extras that can make so much difference in identifying who belongs to which family. If you can help – or want to know more – please contact me off-list. I look forward to being inundated with offers <g> In broad outline, listed below are the parishes to be considered, although please do check with me firstly, because volunteers are already working on a few of them…. Carole Ansley Arley Astley Atherstone Attleborough Austrey Baddesley Ensor Baxterley Bedworth Bentley Bulkington Caldecote Chilvers Coton Coleshill Corley Curdworth Dordon (Polesworth) Fillongley Gt Packington Grendon Hartshill Kingsbury Lea Marston Lt Packington Mancetter Maxstoke Merevale Middleton Minworth (Curdworth) Nether Whitacre Newton Regis Nuneaton Over Whitacre Polesworth Seckington Shustoke Shuttington Stockingford Warton (Polesworth) Water Orton Weddington Wishaw Carole's outgoing mail has been scanned by AVG and is virus free. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1135 - Release Date: 16/11/2007 22:58