Good Morning Bonnie and the group. This is part of my presentation, (9 pages in total) I gave at the City Hall to the Community Council of Toronto attempting to stop further developments on the cemetery site. I also have the list of casualities, both British and Canadian, plus another 73 names of British Soldiers who are buried there, died while stationed at York (Toronto). The rector and archaelogist ( 3-4,000 skeletal remains at $1,000 fee each) had the spokesperson a young lady, arrested and incarcerated. It is now in the courts. Any corrections to this list would be appreciated. CASUALITY LIST, April 27th, 1813 There were 14 American Soldiers and 3 seamen killed in the Battle, and 38 killed in the Magazine explosion with a total of 222 wounded. The American Militia involved were: the 6th, 14th, 15th, 16th, and 21st Regiments of Infantry, a volunteer regiment comprised of men from New York, Albany and Baltimore. a company of the 1st Rifle Regiment and artillery from a company of the 3rd Regiment and the Regiment of Light Artillery. Bigelow, John Private Rifles Died 27 Apr 13 Bloomfield, Moses Ogden. 2nd Lieut. 15th Inf. Killed 27 Apr ‘13 Ferry, Dennis Private 15th Inf. Died 27 Apr ‘13 Fulton, David Private 6th Inf. Died 27 Apr ‘13 Gload, Elnathan Private 13th (?) Inf. Died 28 Apr 13 Hoppock, John Lambert. Captain 15th Inf. Killed 27 Apr ‘13 Huff, Jonathan Private 15th Inf. Died -- May ‘13 Jones, Almiran Private 131st (?) Inf. Died 27 Apr ‘13 Lyon, Thomas Captain 16th Inf. Killed 27 Apr ‘13, killed by the explosion of a magazine at the capture of York U.C. McLean, Charles Lieutenant 25th Inf. Died 28 Apr ‘13 Murphy, Joseph. late a private in Captain Hoppack's Company of the 15th Regiment of Infantry, who was killed April 27th, 1813 in the battle of Little York, Upper Canada. Enlisted 26 May 1812 for 18 months. Also identified as Sergt. Major of the 15th U.S. Infantry by Major Lewis. Joseph Murphy and Isabella McGowan were married on 03 July 1807 at St. Peter's Church. Jane McGowan was present. Nicholson, Benjamin Captain 14th Inf. Died 13 May 13 of wounds received on 27                                  April1813 at the capture of York, U.C.  Resident of Md. Pike Zebulon M. Brig. Gen. Killed 27 Apr ‘13 Tenny, William, killed at York. William Tenny married Susannah Tenny. Resident of Williamsburg City, Va. Wade, Henry Private 25th (?) Inf. Died 28 Apr ‘13 Hatfield, midshipman, USS Madison, 27 Apr ‘13 Thompson, Midshipman, USS Madison. 27 Apr ‘13 plus one other seaman, name unknown. This was the vessel which took Pike's body back to Sacketts Harbour. Now identified as Israd Clark. Pike is buried in Sackett’s Harbor Military Cemetry, Route 3, Sackett’s Harbor, Jefferson County, New York, USA. . Only one other name is shown buried there but not from Little York. reference: Library of Congress, " The Weekly Register, Saturday June 12, 1813" 'Known Military Dead During War of 1812" by Lieut Peterson 1955 ************************ I recently acquired the following name : Benna Benni / Paule Pauley who served in the 6th Regiment. No documentation could be found Really what I need is additional names and burial places, especially if they were buried in York, and remind the Church and the Developers that if they invade the burial grounds, that the US will want their veterans back. (FYI) I see now that the British are bringing their KIA back to the UK, due to the disrespect shown to their graves. This practice commenced with The Falkland's War.    

The Stoney Creek Battlefield (Hamilton) has remains of Both British and American troops in it's cemetery. Missing are all the skulls which were stolen by a "Professor" about 100 years ago I'm told. Another Memorial Site in Hamilton is the Hamilton-Scourge site at Confederation Park where the crews of the American ships that were lost are remembered. Most of the 53 bodies were never recovered at least six still remain on board the ships to this day. Others are probably buried all over Ontario but their graves have been long lost. I've never found any exact details of losses in total for most battles. The fluid nature of the war, the densely forested terrain and the fact that most men on both sides were volunteers meant that many deserted or got lost before and after battles and were never heard from again, or they just rejoined either side under a different assumed name. Hence so many "Missing - Presumed dead". The British tend to bury their dead near the site where they died and don't normally return bodies to Britain However the Americans try to repatriate their dead where they can. There is a small cemetery in Ancaster (Hamilton) which dates to this period and it holds over 106 bodies. Until a few weeks ago only about 6 bodies were known to be buried there. Two more bodies have also been found about a mile from the Stoney Creek Battlefield near a highway construction Who the heck are these folks? Nobody seems to know! Could there possibly be a few dead Americans soldiers there? We may never know for sure. :-)) Nelson

The Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire The Imperial Order Daughters of the Empire is a non-denominational women's organization formed by primarily educated, middle-class English-speaking women who were loyal to Britain. IODE is a Canadian women's volunteer organization founded in 1900 to encourage public service and patriotism. Today's IODE is a national service organization which promotes projects in the areas of education, social service and citizenship. There are over 380 Chapters in as many towns across Canada. When there are more than eight chapters in an area, a Municipal Chapter is formed to assist in the co-ordination of projects and communication between those chapters. There is a Provincial Chapter for each province (except Manitoba, Quebec and Newfoundland) and territory. The National Chapter of Canada has offices in Toronto, Ontario The mission of IODE, a Canadian women's charitable organization, is to improve the quality of life for children, youth and those in need, through educational, social service and citizenship programs. More history. http://www.geocities.com/iodemarkham/IODEhistory.html

Reading a recent post by Sue Mclean I see the following term IODE. Would someone please tell me who or what the IODE is. Thank You. Doug:

About 3 (?) years ago, there was a very moving re-internment ceremony at Stoney Creek, Ontario. While digging the foundations for an historic house that was to be moved onto the grounds of the battlefield site, the remains of 4 persons were found. Buttons identified the remains as being both American and British, but it was a common grave and deciding which bones belonged to which nation was impossible. All the remains were put into one casket and reburied in the grave yard where other victims of that battle are buried with full military honours. The official U.S. Ceremonial Guard from Arlington was present, as were Canadian Forces personel, and many re-enactors. It was a very moving ceremony, and those of us who were present will always remeber it. I don't think that Canada has any specific policy regarding remains from 1812. Our tradition has been to bury our war dead where they fall. But certainly (as in the Snake Hill case), if the remains can be identified as American, and if the US wishes to claim them, there would be no problem with returning them. Trevor, have you though of the IODE? They were originally founded to a) mark the graves of Commenwealth soldiers during the Boer War, and to b) provide for widows and orphans. Although 1812 certainly predates them, perhaps they may still be interested in helping to preserve military cemetaries -- Sue McLean smaclean@deadsquid.com

Dear Angie, I saw your message this morning and thought best I wait to see if Murray should answer. He did and mentioned my name. So here I am. Murray's reference is 'The Dig at Snake Hill - Fort Erie. Twenty eight American remains were return to the USA. A very impressive cortege was held. Apparently there was no trouble outside of paper work, and who pays who. Background: some 18 months ago I sought to find if possible the names of the Americans who were killed or died of their wounds at York (April 27, 1813). There were 14 soldiers and 3 seamen killed in the Battle, and 38 killed in the Magazine Explosion. I believe that the 38 were buried in the crater caused by the explosion, and possibly kerosene was used to cremate them. I have identified just four KIA who were returned to the USA. Pike, Hadfield, Thompson, and Clark. A few years back, the minister of the Cathedral tried to sell the cemetery adjacent to the Church, PRIME REAL ESTATE in downtown Toronto to a developer for a condo. The cemetery, 3-4,000 remains,- was paved over for a church parking. He lost that fight. There are many British soldiers buried there. I approached the Common War Grave Commission to protect this site - "Sorry we only came into existence after WWI and our mandate is WWI and II. I do believe they will going back to the Boer War Cemeteries. I then approached the Canadian government, "Sorry Canada did not exist until 1867" A no win situation. Only problem in this area of Toronto is exactly where they are buried. I would hazard a guess the only problem to be encountered is 'money - who pays what' I have uncovered some 20 names, if interested, or any other members of this list, and I know that was not your question, it will be my pleasure to send it to you. Trevor Hamilton. On Jan 3, 2005, at 12:29 PM, macomb@ca.inter.net wrote: > I don't konw the number still buried in Canada, but about four or five > years ago, and > archeological dig around Old Fort Erie uncovered remains of both > British and American Soldiers. There was an official return of the > bodies to US soil arranged between the two governments (Canada and > the US). There would be US soldiers buried at York (now Toronto) > possibly at St. James cemetary, Lundy's Lane (though most were burned > for health reasons), Chippawa (noted buried in shallow graves were > they laid with a single battlefield marker), Fort George, Fort Erie, > perhaps Queenston Heights, etc. > It's a big question that others may be able to augment an answer. > Trevor Hamilton (of this > list) may have more details on St. James in Toronto though. > Regards > Murray

There are 195 American prisoners of war in unmarked graves in Halifax from the War of 1812. Scott Baker -----Original Message----- From: macomb@ca.inter.net [mailto:macomb@ca.inter.net] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:29 AM To: WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [WARof1812] Re: WARof1812-D US soldiers buried in Canada I don't konw the number still buried in Canada, but about four or five years ago, and archeological dig around Old Fort Erie uncovered remains of both British and American Soldiers. There was an official return of the bodies to US soil arranged between the two governments (Canada and the US). There would be US soldiers buried at York (now Toronto) possibly at St. James cemetary, Lundy's Lane (though most were burned for health reasons), Chippawa (noted buried in shallow graves were they laid with a single battlefield marker), Fort George, Fort Erie, perhaps Queenston Heights, etc. It's a big question that others may be able to augment an answer. Trevor Hamilton (of this list) may have more details on St. James in Toronto though. Regards Murray > X-Message: #2 > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:25:19 -0700 > From: "Sipe" <sipe@centurytel.net> > To: WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <001001c4f154$9d893ba0$2d01a8c0@sipe> > Subject: Question > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Can anyone tell me how many servicemen killed durning the war of 1812 > are STILL buried in Canada? Also wondered What Canada's policy is on the return of the bodies. > > Thanks so much for your help > Angela Sipe ==== WARof1812 Mailing List ==== ADDRESS MESSAGES TO: WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Please remove me from this list. -----Original Message----- From: macomb@ca.inter.net [mailto:macomb@ca.inter.net] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:29 AM To: WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [WARof1812] Re: WARof1812-D US soldiers buried in Canada I don't konw the number still buried in Canada, but about four or five years ago, and archeological dig around Old Fort Erie uncovered remains of both British and American Soldiers. There was an official return of the bodies to US soil arranged between the two governments (Canada and the US). There would be US soldiers buried at York (now Toronto) possibly at St. James cemetary, Lundy's Lane (though most were burned for health reasons), Chippawa (noted buried in shallow graves were they laid with a single battlefield marker), Fort George, Fort Erie, perhaps Queenston Heights, etc. It's a big question that others may be able to augment an answer. Trevor Hamilton (of this list) may have more details on St. James in Toronto though. Regards Murray > X-Message: #2 > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:25:19 -0700 > From: "Sipe" <sipe@centurytel.net> > To: WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <001001c4f154$9d893ba0$2d01a8c0@sipe> > Subject: Question > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Can anyone tell me how many servicemen killed durning the war of 1812 are STILL buried in Canada? Also wondered What Canada's policy is on the return of the bodies. > > Thanks so much for your help > Angela Sipe ==== WARof1812 Mailing List ==== ADDRESS MESSAGES TO: WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

I don't konw the number still buried in Canada, but about four or five years ago, and archeological dig around Old Fort Erie uncovered remains of both British and American Soldiers. There was an official return of the bodies to US soil arranged between the two governments (Canada and the US). There would be US soldiers buried at York (now Toronto) possibly at St. James cemetary, Lundy's Lane (though most were burned for health reasons), Chippawa (noted buried in shallow graves were they laid with a single battlefield marker), Fort George, Fort Erie, perhaps Queenston Heights, etc. It's a big question that others may be able to augment an answer. Trevor Hamilton (of this list) may have more details on St. James in Toronto though. Regards Murray > X-Message: #2 > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:25:19 -0700 > From: "Sipe" <sipe@centurytel.net> > To: WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <001001c4f154$9d893ba0$2d01a8c0@sipe> > Subject: Question > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Can anyone tell me how many servicemen killed durning the war of 1812 are STILL buried in Canada? Also wondered What Canada's policy is on the return of the bodies. > > Thanks so much for your help > Angela Sipe

I just received a reference to this name and am wondering if this could be my William. He was about 37 and was from the TN/VA area. In the writing he is referred to as being in VA. Does anyone know about this man? SUsan

Can anyone tell me how many servicemen killed durning the war of 1812 are STILL buried in Canada? Also wondered What Canada's policy is on the return of the bodies. Thanks so much for your help Angela Sipe

Nelson, Thanks for the website reference. History hasn't been published, other than the very obscure Ontario Supreme Court William Riddell's thesis of 1929 on these cases (ref: a sequetered case law approaching 200 years), that the Assize Court continued to 1818. 50 more families were prosecuted under this Court for Treasonable acts. In the Honourable Judge Riddell's thesis he ommits seven of these 50 family surnames, most probably due to the then qustionable judgement against them! (at least by my ancestor court testimony against him - one of the excluded) The Honourable Riddell also continues to discuss at length the Overholzer case, which suffered by an exclusion of British Law at the time, namely giving evidence by "Affirmation". Overholtzer's "witness", was a Quaker named Thomas Clarke. He gave testimony to British General Riall, and the Niagara Justice of the Peace. Their testimony to the court was dismissed due to it being "hearsay". Overholzer's witness, the Quaker Clarke wasn't able to testify on his behalf due to the "oath" requirement, which was abhorrent and restricted for the anabaptist faiths. Of note: Overholtzer's accuser's were arrested for horse stealing...stealing his horses! Most notably in the resulting booty, were those lucative contiguous cleared lands of Quakers and Mennonites, that would fall into Provincial hands by their prosecution (but I digress). These same results also occured during the American War of Independence (Brandywine, Germantown, and Saratoga to name a few losses of these faithful). The very sequestering of these Assize court case records for almost 200 years, flies in the face of Common Law with it's "impudence", which is the foundation of not only British Law, but current Canadain, and American law as well. There remains no option for appeal. Those that were hung at Ancaster, 1814 seem to be clear cases of "armed" treason. British Drummond needed a "show case trial" to drive home loyality among the Niagara residence. Afterall, the British had abandoned them, so let's cloud the issue with 'Treason":) There still was a war to fight afterall! The continuing Assize Court post war, in my humble opinion, was the basis for the Great Discontent of 1818, in Niagara UC. The resulting oppresion post war, also made Canadian citizens one of the big loosers, subjugated to the "Family Compact" and their cronies. Murray - today's actions are tomorrow's history >>>original message Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:22:24 -0500 From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> To: WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Ancaster's Bloody Assize Here is a site that relates a series of trials of "Traitors" who were hung in Ancaster(Hamilton) Ontario in 1814 http://war1812.tripod.com/ancaster.html Interestingly many of the surnames names are of prominent "Loyalist" families in the area: McNeil, Overholtzer, Peacock, Petit, Crysler etc. Again a sign that politics often crossed over to open warfare even in family units. Nelson Denton. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

Nelsons proof that Canada won the war is probably as valid as any historical document. As former Prime Minister Poutine said," Da proof is da proff is da Proof is da proof". Please do not mind but this my American friends, it is an inside Canadaian joke. Joe - Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leona L. Gustafson" <GenealogyBug@Gustafson.net> To: <WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [WARof1812] re: Extension of Rev. War? > Thank you, Nelson, for the other North American view of the War of 1812. > I love it. Each country (side) has its own version of every conflict. I > truly believe the truth is always some place in the middle. The true > history of any aspect of human undertaking is held in the hearts and minds > of the people who actually lived through it and in those whose lives were > touched by it in any way. > > Leona > >> >> We Canadians "Know" we won the war because we are still here almost 200 >> years later. >> >> >> My name is Nelson . >> And I am CANADIAN!!!! >> > > > ==== WARof1812 Mailing List ==== > WATCH YOUR SUBJECT LINES > Some members delete list > mail based solely upon a > subject you've gave your > message. BE SURE TO GIVE > THEM REALLY GOOD ONES OK > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > >

Here is a site that relates a series of trials of "Traitors" who were hung in Ancaster(Hamilton) Ontario in 1814 http://war1812.tripod.com/ancaster.html Interestingly many of the surnames names are of prominent "Loyalist" families in the area: McNeil, Overholtzer, Peacock, Petit, Crysler etc. Again a sign that politics often crossed over to open warfare even in family units. Nelson Denton.

Good points all. Post war, the Americans would debate Land Grants for their soldiers who served, and the US Congress denied this motion. Then the Congress began a three day debate about Canadian Refugees and their staggering number of 10,000 signatories at Batavia NY in 1817. This debate resulted in assigning Land Warrants to Upper Canadians that lost all in claiming refuge. Not all were US immigrant settlers though, as there were also Loyalist sons in the mix, largely due to the British retreat from Fort George in 1813, and the subsequent British Assize Court that continued to 1818. The Congressional debate continued, to reopen the decision to deny US soldiers Land Claims for service. The Congress re-voted and decided it would be shameful not to grant land for US military service, and the privately held Land Grants in the American midwest were then open for assignment. This would also lead to opportunity for the crowded original 13 colonies to settle the midwest. As of 1820, 20,000 Quakers moved acrossed the Appliations to settle Ohio, Illionis, Indiana and Wyoming territory, forming core farming communities. From these Congressional actions, the US would leap forward in settling the mdiwest and western continent. The British would have a contentious Selkirk experiment (1820s) and continue to bog down with conflicts between furtraders and a any determined settlement policy. Also the British control assigned the Upper Canadian Family Compact would prove at odds with liberties existing pre War of 1812, and Republican ideals would remain supressed beyond the MacKenzie Rebellion years of 1837 until Responsible Government of 1848 started to take hold. Murray >>>> What about the Orders in Council? That was much of the problem. Those were rescinded, albeit too late to stop the War. What about British impressment? It stopped. While it is true that the "War Hawks" in our Congress wanted to take Canada, most people weren't in favor of that. They were mad about the trade issues and the impressment. Rose in KY -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

To all who have contributed to the agreement and disagreement in our recent discussions; Thank You! It has been a joy. Keep the cards and letters coming at any time. Barry---

Sorry to be a bother, I know this is not the correct way but I have stopped my membership and now I don't know how to take myself off this mailing list. Can anyone help me? Thank you, Cathy Newman

Since the list is so active hopefully I can grab someone's attention and get direction. I'm looking for a Jacob Wilson b. 1774 in Chester Co. PA d. 1843 in White Co. IL Jacob was at Harper's Ferry in 1798 and served at the White House in the War of 1812 under Col. William Washington. Jacob's father fought in the Rev'n war and was wounded at Paoli and captured. There should be a brother of Jacob named Silas that fought at Brandywine. Someone somewhere obtained this information about him at the White House. Any ideas ? Thanks Janean

The most battle-proven part of the British army was in Spain from around 1810 to 1813, and it was some of these regiments that came to fight at New Orleans. Enough of these Iberian Peninsular veterans went to North American that when the Duke of Wellington had to fight the Battle of Waterloo in June 1815 against Napoleon, he was handicapped by the fact that the only British troops available to him were non-veterans. I suppose if the British had lost at Waterloo the American war would be listed as one of the reasons. Mark C. -----Original Message----- From: Sue Mclean [mailto:smclean@deadsquid.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 6:23 PM To: WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [WARof1812] WAR of 1812 the British must have been strained financially as well after many years fighting Napoleon Yes, this may be true, but they also had a large, well trained, battle-hardened army (and navy) who were no longer fully occupied in Europe. It would not have been difficult to transfer this force to North America. The British regulars garrisoned there had already proved themselves more than a match for the American forces. Had the war continued, and that military force been focused on the United States, the war would have gone on longer with much different results. However, the war ended. And now we have a great time re-enacting it, then afterward, happily sharing good times with "the enemy". Huzzah for history! And for those who share a passion for it! -- Sue McLean smaclean@deadsquid.com ==== WARof1812 Mailing List ==== This WAR of 1812 List is sponsored by ROOTSWEB Let them know how much you appreciate our list by visiting them at: http://www.rootsweb.com ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Andrea, I hope your still with us through all the great discussion. I'll keep my two cents to two sentences and reply to Barry's comment of, "From where I stand the underlying cause of the War of 1812 was money." What an understatement. Commerce often seems to be a cause for conflict, whether it's for animal fur, land or oil or whatever. Back to Andrea's query, can you give us the name of your ancestor? I have researched in Pennsylvania, and the PA Archives has published muster rolls of those who served in the War of 1812. I think the listing is in the 6th series. They have the original hand written muster and payment rolls on micro film at the Archives building in Harrisburg. National Archives has the pension and Bounty land records. When going through local newspapers of the early 1850's I found that several new bills were passed by the U.S. Senate that extended the provisions of the laws granting bounty lands. I had failed at finding pension records for my ancestor at the National Archives but when I requested records for an application for bounty land I received his letter and application. My ancestor Frederick Fronk was age 64 when he applied for the bounty land in 1852. His request was rejected. Marcia Fronk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrea Welter" <aylayla@mac.com> To: <WARof1812-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: [WARof1812] new to war genealogy > Greetings, > > Apparently I have an ancestor served in the War of 1812. Have no data to show when he relocated. from NJ to PA so I'm not sure where he would have served. Are there any records or pensions similar like can be ontained for Civil War vets? Is this war still considered part of the American Revolution? > > Thanks > > Andrea