Dear Avie, You will get plenty of replies on this one. It used to be the case that there were no surnames in Wales but that has died out except for a tiny minority. Ap means 'son of'. Llywelyn the Great was Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. His father was Iorwerth ab Owain Gwynedd. The ab was because of the vowel 'O'. Gradually, the English forced them to use surnames. In between, the ap disappeared. e.g. my gggg grandfather was Morris Jones but HIS father was John Thomas. (Jones means son of John). And HIS father was Thomas Rowland. On another line, my ggg grandfather was Williams. His Father was William Evans and HIS father was Evan Williams. The surname Bowen is from ab Owain. Probert is from ap Robert. This system was the Patronymic system. If not clear, please ask anything. Glyn Glyn Jones FRPS www.glynphoto.com Remember Tryweryn Join the Royal Photographic Society Join Creative Monochrome ----- Original Message ----- From: <WALES-GEN-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <WALES-GEN-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:02 PM Subject: WALES-GEN-D Digest V02 #74