Glyn Just when did this patronymic system "die" out and they start using what we consider "proper surnames"? In other words just how far back was your gggg grandfather?? I have found what I thought was "my lot" on the 1851 online census but am wondering if I am barking up the wrong (family) tree now. Kind Regards Barbara > Dear Avie, > You will get plenty of replies on this one. > It used to be the case that there were no surnames in Wales but that has > died out except for a tiny minority. Ap means 'son of'. > Llywelyn the Great was Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. His father was Iorwerth ab > Owain Gwynedd. The ab was because of the vowel 'O'. Gradually, the English > forced them to use surnames. In between, the ap disappeared. e.g. my gggg > grandfather was Morris Jones but HIS father was John Thomas. (Jones means > son of John). And HIS father was Thomas Rowland. > On another line, my ggg grandfather was Williams. His Father was William > Evans and HIS father was Evan Williams. > The surname Bowen is from ab Owain. Probert is from ap Robert. > This system was the Patronymic system. If not clear, please ask anything. > > Glyn > > > Glyn Jones FRPS > www.glynphoto.com > Remember Tryweryn > Join the Royal Photographic Society > Join Creative Monochrome > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <WALES-GEN-D-request@rootsweb.com> > To: <WALES-GEN-D@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:02 PM > Subject: WALES-GEN-D Digest V02 #74 > > > > > ==== WALES-GEN Mailing List ==== > Have you used Tree Tops? > The Free FAMILY TREE & WE'LL MEET AGAIN SERVICE > http://freespace.virgin.net/tree.tops > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Barbara, The patronymic system is still used by a very few people but, to all intents, it died out by about 1850, for the majority. It depends on the area and on the nature of the family. The gentry began to stop using it when they wished to kow-tow to the English i.e. some families before 1500. My gggg grandfather died in 1808. My ggg grandfather (other line) died in 1834. If your ancestor, in 1851, was in an Anglicised area, I'd be fairly sure you had the right one. If from a very Welsh area and of very humble origins, possibly not. Try and find a Will. Just in case, where were they? Glyn Glyn Jones FRPS www.glynphoto.com Remember Tryweryn Join the Royal Photographic Society Join Creative Monochrome ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Humphreys" <jambutty@idx.com.au> To: "Glyn Jones" <glynphoto@btinternet.com>; <WALES-GEN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 12:28 AM Subject: Re: [WALES-GEN] Re: WALES-GEN-D Digest V02 #74 > Glyn > > Just when did this patronymic system "die" out and they start using what we > consider "proper surnames"? In other words just how far back was your gggg > grandfather?? I have found what I thought was "my lot" on the 1851 online > census but am wondering if I am barking up the wrong (family) tree now. > > Kind Regards > Barbara > > > > > Dear Avie, > > You will get plenty of replies on this one. > > It used to be the case that there were no surnames in Wales but that has > > died out except for a tiny minority. Ap means 'son of'. > > Llywelyn the Great was Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. His father was Iorwerth ab > > Owain Gwynedd. The ab was because of the vowel 'O'. Gradually, the English > > forced them to use surnames. In between, the ap disappeared. e.g. my gggg > > grandfather was Morris Jones but HIS father was John Thomas. (Jones means > > son of John). And HIS father was Thomas Rowland. > > On another line, my ggg grandfather was Williams. His Father was William > > Evans and HIS father was Evan Williams. > > The surname Bowen is from ab Owain. Probert is from ap Robert. > > This system was the Patronymic system. If not clear, please ask anything. > > > > Glyn > > > > > > Glyn Jones FRPS > > www.glynphoto.com > > Remember Tryweryn > > Join the Royal Photographic Society > > Join Creative Monochrome > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <WALES-GEN-D-request@rootsweb.com> > > To: <WALES-GEN-D@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:02 PM > > Subject: WALES-GEN-D Digest V02 #74 > > > > > > > > > > ==== WALES-GEN Mailing List ==== > > Have you used Tree Tops? > > The Free FAMILY TREE & WE'LL MEET AGAIN SERVICE > > http://freespace.virgin.net/tree.tops > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > >