Hi Glyn, Well they were definitely of humble origin. They all seem to have worked in the slate quarries and lived in Llandegai. I found them on the 1891 census only speaking Welsh so perhaps they were the type that didn't like to kow-tow to the English!! Barb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glyn Jones" <glynphoto@btinternet.com> To: <WALES-GEN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [WALES-GEN] Re: WALES-GEN-D Digest V02 #74 > Barbara, > The patronymic system is still used by a very few people but, to all > intents, it died out by about 1850, for the majority. It depends on the area > and on the nature of the family. The gentry began to stop using it when they > wished to kow-tow to the English i.e. some families before 1500. > My gggg grandfather died in 1808. My ggg grandfather (other line) died in > 1834. > If your ancestor, in 1851, was in an Anglicised area, I'd be fairly sure > you had the right one. If from a very Welsh area and of very humble origins, > possibly not. Try and find a Will. > Just in case, where were they? > > Glyn > > Glyn Jones FRPS > www.glynphoto.com > Remember Tryweryn > Join the Royal Photographic Society > Join Creative Monochrome > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara Humphreys" <jambutty@idx.com.au> > To: "Glyn Jones" <glynphoto@btinternet.com>; <WALES-GEN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 12:28 AM > Subject: Re: [WALES-GEN] Re: WALES-GEN-D Digest V02 #74 > > > > Glyn > > > > Just when did this patronymic system "die" out and they start using what > we > > consider "proper surnames"? In other words just how far back was your > gggg > > grandfather?? I have found what I thought was "my lot" on the 1851 online > > census but am wondering if I am barking up the wrong (family) tree now. > > > > Kind Regards > > Barbara > > > > > > > > > Dear Avie, > > > You will get plenty of replies on this one. > > > It used to be the case that there were no surnames in Wales but that has > > > died out except for a tiny minority. Ap means 'son of'. > > > Llywelyn the Great was Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. His father was Iorwerth ab > > > Owain Gwynedd. The ab was because of the vowel 'O'. Gradually, the > English > > > forced them to use surnames. In between, the ap disappeared. e.g. my > gggg > > > grandfather was Morris Jones but HIS father was John Thomas. (Jones > means > > > son of John). And HIS father was Thomas Rowland. > > > On another line, my ggg grandfather was Williams. His Father was William > > > Evans and HIS father was Evan Williams. > > > The surname Bowen is from ab Owain. Probert is from ap Robert. > > > This system was the Patronymic system. If not clear, please ask > anything. > > > > > > Glyn > > > > > > > > > Glyn Jones FRPS > > > www.glynphoto.com > > > Remember Tryweryn > > > Join the Royal Photographic Society > > > Join Creative Monochrome > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <WALES-GEN-D-request@rootsweb.com> > > > To: <WALES-GEN-D@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:02 PM > > > Subject: WALES-GEN-D Digest V02 #74 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== WALES-GEN Mailing List ==== > > > Have you used Tree Tops? > > > The Free FAMILY TREE & WE'LL MEET AGAIN SERVICE > > > http://freespace.virgin.net/tree.tops > > > > > > ============================== > > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, > > go to: > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== WALES-GEN Mailing List ==== > C J Genealogical Collections > Web Page http://freespace.virgin.net/genealogical.collections > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/02