Hi all- I have been attempting to formulate my thoughts on the topic for a day now and have come to the conclusion that I will not be drawn out on such a broad, emotional topic as this one. As your "personal" U.S. diplomatic representative to the Republic of Poland I have talked to Poles about our country and indeed the Civil War for a while now. As an Army Officer and former Assistant Professor of Military Science I have also wrestled with this topic. It is an extremely broad and complicated topic, made the worse for the irrational and emotional (and I'm sorry but simply innacurate views which are easy to look up if you only cared to do so) views. As we say in Texas (and strangely enough, the Poles have an equivalent view) don't talk politics, religion, or money at the dinner table. Well, as I see this forum as a family dinner table. If you want to have an intelligent, productive exchange which does not offend and alienate I suggest you narrow the scope of the discussion (I don't really see the relevance of talking about right-wing politics, racism, or some of the other junk as belonging in this discussion). Of course, you arefree to say what you will, wouldn't have it any other way, just be considerate to your cousins. Hello, in case you haven't figured it out, some of our Vick cousins are African-Americans. Whether you believe the state flag issue should or shouldn't offend is irrelevant. This gentleman is telling you it is offensive to him. As gentlemen (Southern Gentlemen), I believe you should attempt to limit conversation on the issue to the more non-emotional side of the topic or drop it all together on the list. Imagine a detailed discussion of pornography that some might find offensive and you get the picture. Freedom of speech comes with responsibility, friends. Sorry about the lecture, just wanted to speak my mind. What follows is the world's longest sentence, I'm sure. Frankly, if you believe the so-called American Civil War (I'm sorry but that is the name used at West Point, Sandhurst (British Military Academy where I was exchange officer briefly), the Army War College, as well as thousands of other authors and scholars and millions of Americans) was fought only over the slavery issue or exclusively over the so-called states rights issue (I'm sorry, but my copy of the consitution does not contain a clause permitting states to seceed from the union at will, the problem was a difference of opinion over states rights and national authority as outlined in the consitution, which, by the way, has to be read whole and in context of the times; states rights were guaranteed in the Confederate Constitution) is missing out on the incredible and delicious complexity of the times, Political, Economic, Religious, Sociological, and Technological, the elements that must be analyzed in any conflict. The country envisioned by our forefathers and modified for the times has given us the gifts we have today. One nation, forged in blood and fire and maintained through hard work, vision, and a fair bit of luck and geography was and is the answer. I do not believe the agrarian, fragmented Confederacy (yep, their constitution guaranteed each state's autonomy) was economically viable, nor had the capital to expand to the West following the disastrous war (even if they had won). As a southern it hurts me to state that I believe those that participated in the Confederacy to be in open rebellion and therefore traitors. Just as much as George Washington, Thomas Jeffererson and our founding fathers were traitors to their country (which we forget was Great Britain). A rebellion in our country is an attempt to circumvent the constitutional processes of our Republic (we tend to forget we are not a democracy (Article 4, section 4, Consitutution of the United States)). We can change government, slowly sometimes, but through the process. Calhoun, Clay, Davis, and many others seemed to have forgot this in their self interested race to protect their property and political positions (how can property have a vote, ya'll?) That's my two cents worth. Let's try to keep it civil folks. Let's say "I believe" when we mean it and not state our beliefs as facts to offend and criticize our cousins (unless you really want to split hairs with me; source your facts with credible sources and not loony Sons of the Confederacy or Sons of the Republic websites) . your cuz, Jeff Vick Bettie Moore wrote: > Jack, > AMEN and AMEN!! Lots of todays' people expect to get everything for > nothing!! > Bettie

We really have a nice bunch of cousins and friends, I have learned a lot I didn't know on this list. I want to keep learning more, about our cousins, traditions, old stories, and new ones. I love all of you and read every letter as if it was from my sister. I feel so very close to all of you. Please let's all stick together,and continue to work with one another,and help each other the best we can. Learn from one another. I enjoy reading letters from our clown in Plant City ,FL. He makes us laugh!!!. and James Davis our cousin and publisher from Beverly Hills, Ca. Pat Nelson ,from near Raleigh. Please everybody stay with us. We need all of you. We have a lot of Vicks yet, that we need to find.. From a good listener , and eager to learn.. Maggie Nance of Eden,NC

Good2news@aol.com wrote: > > WOW! I am most impressed. > I didn't know I had cousins so smart. I have seen and learned so much with > this little bit of struggle. It may be time to move on however? > I never intended for the topic to cause hurt or division among us. > I knew there were strong feelings and great differences on both sides. > I was hopeful we could talk about them openly as we shared our personal > felling about the topic and not each other. > Once again I think this has been a worth while topic and I learned much from > both points of view. > I want to thank all that had the courage to step up and place there thoughts > in front of other when they knew they would be lashed out at. (To Bad) > Once again thanks for a fine discussion. I hope we are all better men a women > and more tolerant of others for it. > > Moving On Now > > Cuz;en David > 906 W Terrace Dr > Plant City Fl. 33565 > 813-659-3435 Thank you, Cuzen, You are a man of wisdom -- sometimes it is best just to go on to another topic. Di Ann

Jim -- I could not agree with you more. Di Ann

Jack, AMEN and AMEN!! Lots of todays' people expect to get everything for nothing!! Bettie

Hello all you nice Vick folks. I am looking for any information any one might have re: Sarah Vick who married James Swain. 1843 in Thomas Co. Georgia. James and she are my g-granparents and I sure would love to have mpre info on them. David Vick is/was her father and they all ended up in Rapides parish, La. by 1850. James and Sarah stayed. I don't know where the rest went to unless it was Texas and then I don't know where in Texas. Thanks in advance Faye

Boy Howdy!! Not real sure I want to get in on this, but seems things need to be cooled off a bit. Cuz;N David really stirred the pot here! I agree with James, Bob, Pat, Bettie, et. al, that: What we were taught in school was not factual in many ways. The Civil War\War of Insurrection\War Between The States (or whatever you call it) was NOT fought over slavery. Primarily it was fought over the right of the states to secede from the union, which was one of the conditions some of the states insisted on before they would ratify the Constitution in the first place. But, to lighten things up a bit, hopefully, and assure Anthony that we are NOT racial bigots, consider the following: You get a virtual lolli-pop when you finish! Jack Landers - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------------------- For high school and college graduates, here is a list of 11 things they did not teach you in school. In his book, Bill Gates talks about how to feel good, politically correct teachings created a full generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world. You may want to share this list with someone you know. 1. Life is not fair. Get used to it. 2. The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself. 3. You will NOT make 40 thousand dollars a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice president with a car phone, until you earn both. 4. If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. 5. Flipping burgers in not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping-they called it opportunity. 6. If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them. 7. Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes, and listening to you talk about how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parents' generation, try delousing the closet in your own room. 8. Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life. 9. Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time. 10. Television is NOT real life. In real life, people actually have to leave the coffee shop to go to their job. 11. Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

Good evening list, I have been quite about the posting regarding the Confederate Flag, the Civil War, The War for Southern Independence and etc. I would like to say one thing though all of you should remember that we are "one nation under one flag." All this is getting us nowhere as to finding our ancestors or anything about them. A bit of a heated debate now and then is a great thing, but there must be a place for it. Why don't you take the debate about the south to Martha Rice's list: Rice-Southern-L-request@rootsweb.com and lets get back to the Vicks on this list. I'm leaving the list for a few days and hope it has cleared up by the time I return. Jim Vick Verona, Italy

Anthony, I will not stand by and let you equate Nazi totalitarian mass genocide, with the slave question. As abhorrent as the practice of slavery was it does not nor ever will be equal to the mass execution of Nazi Germany http://www.freedomsnest.com/rummel_totals.html along with the other totalitarian regimes so politely ignored. Your statements do have merit as listed here http://www.freedomsnest.com/rummel_pre20a.html#africans , but pale in comparison. The major difference is that the black man sold the black men and much of the killing was carried out their own race. In contrast to the Nazi that was attempting to eliminate a complete group of people based on race & religion. There was never any attempt made to eliminate the black man by the southerner at this time so your comparison is vulgar, and a typical misrepresentation. I have lived around the world and found less racism in the south than in any other part of the world and the United States. Slavery continues today and is politely ignored as we grant billions of dollars and armies to help and defend these slave countries. I hear not a cry for the removal of these flags that represent the ever real and present day representation of the "Slave Question". If we are truly concerned where is the out rage for today? It is sad that we cannot discuss an important time in our history with out being equated as Nazis when discussing our heritage. Bob - K -----Original Message----- From: DJVICK@aol.com [mailto:DJVICK@aol.com] Sent: February 08, 2000 01:41 To: VICK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [VICK-L] Thinly Veiled Racism To my fellow Vicks' After many months of enjoying the history of the Vicks' contained in the many postings, I'am leaving the list because of my abhorence to the racist nature of the debate over the Confederate flag flying. I am aware of the contradictory statements of Lincoln and the myriad political causes and ramifications of the Civil War, none the less the conflict was a result of the moral debate concerning slavery and it's resultant economic impact upon the Southern culture. The Confederate flag will always be a symbol of slavery and the post-Civil War segregationist policies to the majority of the free citizens of the United States. Think of the ghettoization of the swastika, 90 years ago the swastika was a very common archetypal symbol used in the decorative arts. Building facades, mastheads, fabric(I've seen a sharp photo of a girl's hockey team from Canada with their sweaters adorned with eight inch swastikas) and now it is a symbol of universal evil. Symbols are potent and should be respected for their impact, when a symbol is associated with an era or particular culture it resonates long after it's original and perhaps benign intent as faded. I believe the Confederate flag should not be displayed at civic buildings or events because of it's symbolism to millions of the citizens of the United States. I do not doubt the honorable nature of the Confederate soldier or his belief in the righteous nature of his cause. I do not wish to see the reverence of our forefathers and personal histories abandoned for some nature of political correctness. I do see the economic system that fosters a belief in slavery as a plausible work force as wrong. A whole mess of history is swept under the rug and most of it is very very grey, I hope that our children are taught well and learn the moral and symbolic nature of our icons. Thanks to any who read this rant, I simply can't abide the thinly veiled racism symbolized by the Confederate flag nor the discussion of it's merits as a symbol of a culture founded on slavery. Please unsubscibe me from further postings Sincerly, Anthony Vernon Vick, son of Vernon Bayard Vick, son of Raymond Vick, son of Bayard Vick and many more genrations back to 1790, Dupoy KY to Detroit MI to Denver, CO to currently San Diego CA

WOW! I am most impressed. I didn't know I had cousins so smart. I have seen and learned so much with this little bit of struggle. It may be time to move on however? I never intended for the topic to cause hurt or division among us. I knew there were strong feelings and great differences on both sides. I was hopeful we could talk about them openly as we shared our personal felling about the topic and not each other. Once again I think this has been a worth while topic and I learned much from both points of view. I want to thank all that had the courage to step up and place there thoughts in front of other when they knew they would be lashed out at. (To Bad) Once again thanks for a fine discussion. I hope we are all better men a women and more tolerant of others for it. Moving On Now Cuz;en David 906 W Terrace Dr Plant City Fl. 33565 813-659-3435

Greetings to all, Today was our first day since our new list was launched and we already have 24 subscribers. I started the day off posting a notice on the Rice Genforum site and have since posted messages on the following VA GenConnect County sites: Goochland, Hanover, Louisa, New Kent, Prince Edward and Wythe. Would each of you please take a moment and post an announcement on the GenConnect County sites in the areas you are researching, advising them of our new list? This would be a tremendous help. Hopefully, as we gain subscribers, we will find other Rice researchers willing to share information. Please remember to advise them of the procedure to subscribe which is as follows: Send a message to Rice-Southern-L-request@rootsweb.com with the word SUBSCRIBE contained in the body of the text. Your assistance in advertising our list will be very much appreciated. Martha Rice

Hi Cuz'n David and the rest of the clan, You asked an interesting question on our thoughts of the war of northern aggression. It definitely was not a civil war, nothing civil about it. I do not believe that I am a racist just because I would like to see the record set straight. I DO NOT believe any person should be the owner of another. Through out history we have had slavery from time to time of one race or another. This does not make it right. I grew up in Dixie and accepted the twisted history that was taught even at that time. It was not until my husband joined the SCV and I started reading materials on what happened during those horrible years that I realized that the history that I was taught was a bunch of huey. I found my gggrandfather died in this war. I find no record that he ever owned a slave. His son also fought in the war with no record of any slaves. 2 other greatgrandfathers that did own slaves also fought. I respect the right of each person to believe what they want but I also challenge each of you to search for the truth. Some of the things I have found: The original constitution of the CSA forbade the importation of slaves. The first slave owner in America was a free black. I received papers researched by the state of NC in regards to a family I am researching and some of the things that was listed surprised me. 1. In 1850 less than 30% of the people of NC owned slaves. 2. Of the 28% that owned slaves, only 8% owned over 20 slaves. Will someone tell me why most people think that over 70% of NC soldiers were fighting for the rights of less than 30% to own slaves? If you will check records you will find many blacks fighting for the south. I went to a memorial service in VA last fall for a free black that fought for the south. I was pleased to see many people turn up to honor him. In the south the men were from the south. In the north a lot of the soldiers were paid to take the place and fight in the place of someone else or immigrants were forced to fight for the north in order to gain their freedom. Is this not using them as slaves to gain freedom for another? Pat Nelson nels095@ibm.net

Okay cuz you guys are getting to the good stuff now hold on. I would like to think we as family and friends can discus the very difficult issues of our past without thinking bad of each other. There has always been two side and will continue to be. I would like to see us make our thought and beliefs know, shear them with others, hopefully that could help us to understand each other. We don't have to agree and every thing but it is a shame if we just want to be disagreeable. I am learning and gaining insight from each post and I hope everybody else is as well. I didn't start this thread to make people angry with each other or to change your position in life. Rather to share our views openly and honestly with each other to help us never have to face a difference like that again. Where people, Brother, and Cousins can't sit down and discus there differences with civility to each other. Respecting each others position and hopefully being able to work out any problems that may arise without going to WAR. Dog gone if we can't even talk about our past here how can we think others peoples of the world can have peace in there countries that have much longer and bloodier histories than ours. Now I want to thank those of you that have shared your thoughts on any side. I think we can all see there is still lots of pain surrounding this part of our history so please lets continue without malice to one another and in a spirit of understanding. If you have been thinking badly of anyone raise your hand, then march right over to your PC and say I'm sorry and continue this very interesting discussion of our Countries History and our Honorable Forefather. I think we get just a hint of the strong differences there were and are still to this day. As for me I want to remember them all with great respect for the stand they took on both sides. It was not easy some gave everything including there lives. I think we can be a little tolerant don't you? Your Pal Cuz;en David 906 W Terrace Dr Plant City Fl. 33565 813-659-3435

Dear Cousin Anthony, I am sorry that you feel a need to leave the list. I understand and respect your comments and respectfully request that you reconsider your decision. I agree with Jim Vick that the main focus of this list should be VICK genealogy and getting to know each other. However, I must also respond to your comments before I drop this subject. I hope you will fully consider the following comments and statements and not reject them out of hand: 1. Slavery has existed virtually since man has existed. All cultures took slaves during war. Slavery existed in Africa long before any white person ever set foot there. The America Indians on the East coast took and kept slaves. The Mayans, the Aztecs, the Incas, all took and kept slaves. Most of the original European slaves were white, because the countries conquered by the Romans were white. The word "slave," comes from "Slav," indicating people of Slavic or East European descent. 2. Most of the black slaves brought to America were captured and sold into slavery by their own people. Numerous treaties existed between Portugal, Spain and black rulers to expedite slavery. 3. Virtually all of the black slaves brought to America were captured or bought and then shipped to America by NORTHERN slave traders. 4. The first sovereign state to pass legislation against slavery was Virginia, back in the late 1700s, fully 30 years before slavery was abolished by Britain. 5. As others stated in the digest, slavery is still being practiced in the Sudan where black slaves are bought and sold by black slave traders for as little as $50.00 each. 6. The Confederate battle flag was never considered as a symbol of slavery by the people who created, honored, and fought for it. It is no more a symbol of slavery than the flag of the United States, which flew over slaves in the North and South for almost 100 years before the War for Southern Independence. The battle flag has been made into a symbol of slavery by people who wish to promote what Shelby Steele calls "redemptive liberalism." You made this point very clear yourself when discussing the Nazi swastika. 7. Every single day in the year 2000 tens of thousands of children in the African countries die of starvation and disease and tens of thousands of people are slaughtered or forced to flee from their homes by various warring factions, and yet others are sold into slavery. These are not symbols. These are black human beings being murdered or exploited by other black human beings. Where are the protestors? Where is the moral outrage? 8. None of the postings in support of the Confederate flag were in support of slavery. I don't know of anyone, other than black people in the Sudan, who supports or tolerates slavery. I apologize for being long-winded, but I am tired of being called or considered a racist simply because I am of Southern heritage and proud of it. I never owned slaves or supported slavery. A few of my ancestors owned a few slaves, as was the custom of the time. Anyone doing genealogy research will eventually find the same. I used to feel a lot of personal guilt and embarrassment about this issue because I was taught the Northern version of Southern history in school. Now that I have taken it upon myself to try to discover the truth, I no longer feel any guilt or shame. Numerous VICKs fought in the War for Southern Independence, on both sides. The Southern VICKs did not fight for slavery, but in support of their country. The Northern VICKs did the same. Please accept my apology for any offense, as none was intended. My experience is that the real "truth," devoid of subjective or emotional evaluation is an elusive target. Also, the real "truth," when and if it is found, is frequently disagreeable or unpleasant when contrary to what was originally believed. Per the suggestion of Jim Vick, I am signing off of this subject. If anyone wants to continue a private conversation, please feel free to contact me directly. Your cousin, James B. Davis ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

To my fellow Vicks' After many months of enjoying the history of the Vicks' contained in the many postings, I'am leaving the list because of my abhorence to the racist nature of the debate over the Confederate flag flying. I am aware of the contradictory statements of Lincoln and the myriad political causes and ramifications of the Civil War, none the less the conflict was a result of the moral debate concerning slavery and it's resultant economic impact upon the Southern culture. The Confederate flag will always be a symbol of slavery and the post-Civil War segregationist policies to the majority of the free citizens of the United States. Think of the ghettoization of the swastika, 90 years ago the swastika was a very common archetypal symbol used in the decorative arts. Building facades, mastheads, fabric(I've seen a sharp photo of a girl's hockey team from Canada with their sweaters adorned with eight inch swastikas) and now it is a symbol of universal evil. Symbols are potent and should be respected for their impact, when a symbol is associated with an era or particular culture it resonates long after it's original and perhaps benign intent as faded. I believe the Confederate flag should not be displayed at civic buildings or events because of it's symbolism to millions of the citizens of the United States. I do not doubt the honorable nature of the Confederate soldier or his belief in the righteous nature of his cause. I do not wish to see the reverence of our forefathers and personal histories abandoned for some nature of political correctness. I do see the economic system that fosters a belief in slavery as a plausible work force as wrong. A whole mess of history is swept under the rug and most of it is very very grey, I hope that our children are taught well and learn the moral and symbolic nature of our icons. Thanks to any who read this rant, I simply can't abide the thinly veiled racism symbolized by the Confederate flag nor the discussion of it's merits as a symbol of a culture founded on slavery. Please unsubscibe me from further postings Sincerly, Anthony Vernon Vick, son of Vernon Bayard Vick, son of Raymond Vick, son of Bayard Vick and many more genrations back to 1790, Dupoy KY to Detroit MI to Denver, CO to currently San Diego CA

To my fellow Vicks' After many months of enjoying the history of the Vicks' contained in the many postings, I'am leaving the list because of my abhorence to the racist nature of the debate over the Confederate flag flying. I am aware of the contradictory statements of Lincoln and the myriad political causes and ramifications of the Civil War, none the less the conflict was a result of the moral debate concerning slavery and it's resultant economic impact upon the Southern culture. The Confederate flag will always be a symbol of slavery and the post-Civil War segregationist policies to the majority of the free citizens of the United States. Think of the ghettoization of the swastika, 90 years ago the swastika was a very common archetypal symbol used in the decorative arts. Building facades, mastheads, fabric(I've seen a sharp photo of a girl's hockey team from Canada with their sweaters adorned with eight inch swastikas) and now it is a symbol of universal evil. Symbols are potent and should be respected for their impact, when a symbol is associated with an era or particular culture it resonates long after it's original and perhaps benign intent as faded. I believe the Confederate flag should not be displayed at civic buildings or events because of it's symbolism to millions of the citizens of the United States. I do not doubt the honorable nature of the Confederate soldier or his belief in the righteous nature of his cause. I do not wish to see the reverence of our forefathers and personal histories abandoned for some nature of political correctness. I do see the economic system that fosters a belief in slavery as a plausible work force as wrong. A whole mess of history is swept under the rug and most of it is very very grey, I hope that our children are taught well and learn the moral and symbolic nature of our icons. Thanks to any who read this rant, I simply can't abide the thinly veiled racism symbolized by the Confederate flag nor the discussion of it's merits as a symbol of a culture founded on slavery. Please unsubscibe me from further postings Sincerly, Anthony Vernon Vick, son of Vernon Bayard Vick, son of Raymond Vick, son of Bayard Vick and many more genrations back to 1790, Dupoy KY to Detroit MI to Denver, CO to currently San Diego CA

James & Cousins, After the eloquent post of James, I know it will be hard to top. As Cousin David said there are no grades, even if we all know James gets an "A". It would be great if some of the rest would post, if not an opinion, a story of your families during this time of federal aggression. Bob - K -----Original Message----- From: James B. Davis [mailto:jamesbdavis@hotmail.com] Sent: February 07, 2000 13:39 To: VICK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [VICK-L] THE WAR FOR SOUTHERN INDEPENDENCE Dearest VICK cousins, There has never been a "civil war" in this country. There was a "War for Southern Independence," fought between the United States of America and the Confederate States of America. This war was never about slavery...it was about states rights, and the rights of states, guaranteed by the United States constitution, to withdraw from the Union. A "union" is voluntary by definition. Abraham Lincoln, beloved though he may be, was not the great emancipator and/or lover of freedom for all peoples as he has been portrayed. To quote Mr. Lincoln himself: "I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races --- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races...I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." (1) (1) Abraham Lincoln, as cited in the Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858, edited by R. W. Johannsen, Oxford University Press, New York, Ny: 1965, pp. 162-163. Likewise, the so-called Emancipation Proclamation was not designed to free slaves. A reading of the document reveals that Lincoln declared free only those slaves "within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall be in rebellion against the United States...in other words only in those areas where Mr. Lincoln had no control. The document specifically excluded six parishes of Louisianna under Federal control as well as the 48 counties designated as West Virginia. The proclamation actually states that these excepted areas be "left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued." Cousin David states that the victor has the right to write the history. I agree on the condition that whatever is written is the truth. However, most of what was written by the victors of this war was not the truth, but was designed to make the victors "right" or "just" in their cause. The Southern states have been vilified for over 140 years for nothing more than having the nerve to stand up for their rights to secede from the Union and create their own nation. Hundreds of thousands of our ancestors fought and died in this war. The great majority of them were neither slave owners nor large property holders. Our beloved General Robert E. Lee did not own slaves, and did not lead our army in support of that cause. At the beginning of the war, General U.S. Grant's wife DID own slaves. There are so many untruths that we have been forced to swallow, and it makes me so angry. I have a library of over 200 books, published from 1850-1895, about this war. I have the 125 volumes of the "Official History" published by the U.S. government 1891-1894 along with a companion atlas. I have books by generals of both North and South, books by Jefferson Davis, and numerous historians. The more I study the words and stories and documents written by people who were actual participants and close observers of this conflict, the more obvious it becomes that the history we were taught, and that most people believe, is nothing more than a series of convenient lies and half-truths. Our brave dead soldiers were tossed into and remain in mass graves while the Union fallen were later reburied. It is said, and is obviously true in this case, that "To the victor go the spoils." Our ancestors suffered and gave and lost so much. I must honor them by trying to make the truth known whenever an opportunity arises. I regularly write letters to newspapers and magazines which print incorrect information or editorials about the war, or the South, or our flag as in recent weeks. Personally, I believe the South would have re-entered the union shortly anyway, but without the loss of life, liberty, and economic ruin caused by the war. I also believe slavery would have been abolished as well. David, you have opened a can of worms. I wish you good fishing. Jim Davis ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Nice Job J.D, Steve Vick ----- Original Message ----- From: James B. Davis <jamesbdavis@hotmail.com> To: <VICK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 1:38 PM Subject: [VICK-L] THE WAR FOR SOUTHERN INDEPENDENCE > Dearest VICK cousins, > > There has never been a "civil war" in this country. There was a "War for > Southern Independence," fought between the United States of America and the > Confederate States of America. > > This war was never about slavery...it was about states rights, and the > rights of states, guaranteed by the United States constitution, to withdraw > from the Union. A "union" is voluntary by definition. > > Abraham Lincoln, beloved though he may be, was not the great emancipator > and/or lover of freedom for all peoples as he has been portrayed. To quote > Mr. Lincoln himself: > > "I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing > about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black > races --- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or > jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry > with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a > physical difference between the white and black races...I, as much as any > other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white > race." (1) > > (1) Abraham Lincoln, as cited in the Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858, > edited by R. W. Johannsen, Oxford University Press, New York, Ny: 1965, > pp. 162-163. > > Likewise, the so-called Emancipation Proclamation was not designed to free > slaves. A reading of the document reveals that Lincoln declared free only > those slaves "within any State or designated part of a State the people > whereof shall be in rebellion against the United States...in other words > only in those areas where Mr. Lincoln had no control. > > The document specifically excluded six parishes of Louisianna under Federal > control as well as the 48 counties designated as West Virginia. The > proclamation actually states that these excepted areas be "left precisely as > if this proclamation were not issued." > > Cousin David states that the victor has the right to write the history. I > agree on the condition that whatever is written is the truth. However, most > of what was written by the victors of this war was not the truth, but was > designed to make the victors "right" or "just" in their cause. > > The Southern states have been vilified for over 140 years for nothing more > than having the nerve to stand up for their rights to secede from the Union > and create their own nation. Hundreds of thousands of our ancestors fought > and died in this war. The great majority of them were neither slave owners > nor large property holders. > > Our beloved General Robert E. Lee did not own slaves, and did not lead our > army in support of that cause. At the beginning of the war, General U.S. > Grant's wife DID own slaves. There are so many untruths that we have been > forced to swallow, and it makes me so angry. > > I have a library of over 200 books, published from 1850-1895, about this > war. I have the 125 volumes of the "Official History" published by the U.S. > government 1891-1894 along with a companion atlas. I have books by generals > of both North and South, books by Jefferson Davis, and numerous historians. > The more I study the words and stories and documents written by people who > were actual participants and close observers of this conflict, the more > obvious it becomes that the history we were taught, and that most people > believe, is nothing more than a series of convenient lies and half-truths. > > Our brave dead soldiers were tossed into and remain in mass graves while the > Union fallen were later reburied. It is said, and is obviously true in this > case, that "To the victor go the spoils." Our ancestors suffered and gave > and lost so much. I must honor them by trying to make the truth known > whenever an opportunity arises. I regularly write letters to newspapers and > magazines which print incorrect information or editorials about the war, or > the South, or our flag as in recent weeks. > > Personally, I believe the South would have re-entered the union shortly > anyway, but without the loss of life, liberty, and economic ruin caused by > the war. I also believe slavery would have been abolished as well. > > David, you have opened a can of worms. I wish you good fishing. > > Jim Davis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >

Thank you, James Davis. I wish I could have said it as well as you. Bettie

Dearest VICK cousins, There has never been a "civil war" in this country. There was a "War for Southern Independence," fought between the United States of America and the Confederate States of America. This war was never about slavery...it was about states rights, and the rights of states, guaranteed by the United States constitution, to withdraw from the Union. A "union" is voluntary by definition. Abraham Lincoln, beloved though he may be, was not the great emancipator and/or lover of freedom for all peoples as he has been portrayed. To quote Mr. Lincoln himself: "I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races --- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races...I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." (1) (1) Abraham Lincoln, as cited in the Lincoln-Douglas debates of 1858, edited by R. W. Johannsen, Oxford University Press, New York, Ny: 1965, pp. 162-163. Likewise, the so-called Emancipation Proclamation was not designed to free slaves. A reading of the document reveals that Lincoln declared free only those slaves "within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall be in rebellion against the United States...in other words only in those areas where Mr. Lincoln had no control. The document specifically excluded six parishes of Louisianna under Federal control as well as the 48 counties designated as West Virginia. The proclamation actually states that these excepted areas be "left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued." Cousin David states that the victor has the right to write the history. I agree on the condition that whatever is written is the truth. However, most of what was written by the victors of this war was not the truth, but was designed to make the victors "right" or "just" in their cause. The Southern states have been vilified for over 140 years for nothing more than having the nerve to stand up for their rights to secede from the Union and create their own nation. Hundreds of thousands of our ancestors fought and died in this war. The great majority of them were neither slave owners nor large property holders. Our beloved General Robert E. Lee did not own slaves, and did not lead our army in support of that cause. At the beginning of the war, General U.S. Grant's wife DID own slaves. There are so many untruths that we have been forced to swallow, and it makes me so angry. I have a library of over 200 books, published from 1850-1895, about this war. I have the 125 volumes of the "Official History" published by the U.S. government 1891-1894 along with a companion atlas. I have books by generals of both North and South, books by Jefferson Davis, and numerous historians. The more I study the words and stories and documents written by people who were actual participants and close observers of this conflict, the more obvious it becomes that the history we were taught, and that most people believe, is nothing more than a series of convenient lies and half-truths. Our brave dead soldiers were tossed into and remain in mass graves while the Union fallen were later reburied. It is said, and is obviously true in this case, that "To the victor go the spoils." Our ancestors suffered and gave and lost so much. I must honor them by trying to make the truth known whenever an opportunity arises. I regularly write letters to newspapers and magazines which print incorrect information or editorials about the war, or the South, or our flag as in recent weeks. Personally, I believe the South would have re-entered the union shortly anyway, but without the loss of life, liberty, and economic ruin caused by the war. I also believe slavery would have been abolished as well. David, you have opened a can of worms. I wish you good fishing. Jim Davis ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com