I cannot answer most of your questions - perhaps Paul can - but the short answer is that the land was in KY - Jefferson County was always in the KY territory and certainly in Ky after it became a state which was apparantly close to his date of recordation. Kentucky County was formed in 1777 when Fincastle was divided into Kentucky, Montgomery and Washington Counties. It was split into Fayette, Lincoln and Jefferson shortly afterwards in 1780. I would imagine that it took some time to transfer everything over to KY courts. Also remember it took many days to ride all the way over to KY. Paul? Can you shed more light on this? Bev ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [VAROOTS] Cavaliers and Pioneers Date: 9/5/2003 1:28:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: <A HREF="mailto:rex@tyler.net">rex@tyler.net</A> Reply-to: <A HREF="mailto:VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com">VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com</A> To: <A HREF="mailto:VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com">VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com</A> Sent from the Internet (Details) Thanks, Bev The Samuel Kirby grant is dated 26 April 1792 according to the VA land site but specifically states in a Note that the land was located in Jefferson Co, KY which suggests to me that by April KY was a state. If so, at that point, how would VA be able to issue a grant for land lying in KY? Or could the transaction have been somewhat earlier and the "date" shown is the date it was recorded rather than the date of the grant? Or if the land was actually part of VA at the time of the grant does that mean that someone after the fact of KY becoming a separate state sat down and plotted out each track to be able to state the location as being Jefferson Co, KY? One other detail...did a person or family have to live on the land (or contiguous land) to get the patent or grant? My problem is simply that I'm trying to figure out where Samuel Kirby lived -- VA or KY or perhaps neither? I didn't realize until I started this research that I was so deficient in my education concerning colonial America... It's back to the books for me...but really you and Paul have been very helpful. Rex -----Original Message----- From: Ms2001@aol.com [mailto:Ms2001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:33 AM To: VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Cavaliers and Pioneers Kentucky became a state in 1792 - up to that point it was part of Virginia. It's hard to track legal documents if you do not know the formation of Virginia cities and counties and thr states that spun off from Virginia. Virginia started with 8 'shires' or counties. Those developed into 100 in the 1950s but has been reduced as some of them have incorporated and become independent cities. Many families lived in 5 or 6 different counties and never moved! If a patent says 'adjoins his own land', then obviously he did own land ther before the patent. This land could be been purchased or it could have been a patent - some pages of the old patent books are illegible or destroyed. You might check county records to see if there is a purchase recorded. Bev ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [VAROOTS] Cavaliers and Pioneers Date: 9/5/2003 11:18:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: <A HREF="mailto:rex@tyler.net">rex@tyler.net</A> Reply-to: HREF="mailto:VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com">VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com To: <A HREF="mailto:VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com">VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com</A> Sent from the Internet (Details) Paul, You have been most helpful in helping unravel just what these records mean or should I say what they don't tell us about our very early ancestors. But there are two more puzzling items about these records, patents and/or grants or conveyances by other means such as deeds or the certificates you mention: I noticed the description of the property in a number of instances referred to land which "adjoins his own land." If that means what I think it means, then it would indicate that the grantee in this particular patent or grant already owned land adjacent to this land. Logically, I would then surmise there was an earlier grant or patent to this same grantee. If so, why can't I find the earlier grant or patent indexed in the records? What part of the records am I overlooking? The second item that puzzles me- and again at the risk of showing my ignorance of VA and KY history (which I admit) - there are any number of grants or patents recorded in VA which refer to land in KY. One in particular, a grant to Samuel Kirby 26 April 1792 of 584 acres located in Jefferson Co, KY. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Jefferson Co on the opposite side of KY from the VA/KY line? If I am reading that correctly does that mean that either the colonial land office of VA or the Commonwealth of VA issued patents and/or grants to land lying in KY? If so, did the grantee live in VA or in KY? How would VA be able to dole out land lying in KY? I haven't located or looked at an old map of colonial VA just yet but did it extend all the way to the western side of KY. If so, why would the description of the land refer to a particular county in KY. Or could it be that the location of the land shown on the VA land site was supplied by someone long after the original patent or grant? I was unable to access the actual document since I don't have the TIFF reader (but will solve that problem today -maybe) I guess my real question is simply whether or not a person found as a grantee in the VA land records actually lived in VA on the date of or at about the time of the patent or grant? In other words where did Samuel Kirby live in 1792 - VA or KY? Or did he live in VA, move to KY and then apply for the grant in VA? Does this mean that just because a person is listed as a grantee of a patent or grant in VA land records that person may not have lived in VA? Straighten me out here Paul. This is crucial to my search for ancestors. Rex -----Original Message----- From: Paul Drake [mailto:pauldrake@charter.net] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 7:51 AM To: VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Cavaliers and Pioneers When land escheated for whatever reason (usually for failure to "seat"it) the regranting of that tract quite usually was by "certificate" and not again by grant. You will find many such certificates mentioned in Nugent and in the works by others following her efforts. Notice that assignments or patent rights usually only appeared in the records of the county in which the land was situate. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Many Virginians, including my ancestor, Martin, Baker, received land grants in KY. (KY., remember was part of VA. until 1792.) Many received the land for their service in either the French and Indian War (by the British beginning in 1763) or later for service in the Revolution (beginning in 1782; only 11%, however, of grants went to veterans.). Officers received much more land than did the enlisted men. Also a man could purchase a land grant either from the VA. government ( 400 acres for $2.25 per hundred under the law of 1779) or from grantees who wanted money rather than the land. Because many did not realize that their land both had to be lived on (usually for a year) with a crop raised, and also had to be registered, they lost their land. There were many tangled law suits. See Kentucky Ancestry by Roseann R. Hogan, Ancestry, S.L.C., 1992. Or for a list of soldiers' names in the War of 1812: Calendar of Warrants for Land in Kentucky, by Phillip Taylor, Gen. Pub. Co., 1967. E. Kaspar

Thanks for the additional input. I had wondered why there was such disparity in the acreage amount of the patents and/or grants and I had noticed that many of them were for 400 acres. I am sure there were many other reasons to explain the widely varying acreage amounts. Other than for those who may have purchased their land, do you know whether or not a person had to fill out a written application of "petition" of some sort to get a patent or grant? And if so, were those documents kept by the land office? Specifically, is there any way for me to know why Samuel Kirby's grant was for 584 acres and Thomas Kirby's was for 85 1/2? I saw one grant for over 11,000 acres to one individual and another grant for 30 acres to someone else. Did the land office have any guidelines to go by? Or is this one of those items I label "That's just the way it was." By the way, present day appraisal and/or tax offices maintain maps of the county showing ownership by name of every square inch of land, the shape and size of any improvements, etc. Was anything like this done in early VA? If so, were those records preserved? Rex -----Original Message----- From: E.A. Kaspar [mailto:E-Kaspar@wiu.edu] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 1:18 PM To: VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [VAROOTS] KY. Land Grants and Warrants Many Virginians, including my ancestor, Martin, Baker, received land grants in KY. (KY., remember was part of VA. until 1792.) Many received the land for their service in either the French and Indian War (by the British beginning in 1763) or later for service in the Revolution (beginning in 1782; only 11%, however, of grants went to veterans.). Officers received much more land than did the enlisted men. Also a man could purchase a land grant either from the VA. government ( 400 acres for $2.25 per hundred under the law of 1779) or from grantees who wanted money rather than the land. Because many did not realize that their land both had to be lived on (usually for a year) with a crop raised, and also had to be registered, they lost their land. There were many tangled law suits. See Kentucky Ancestry by Roseann R. Hogan, Ancestry, S.L.C., 1992. Or for a list of soldiers' names in the War of 1812: Calendar of Warrants for Land in Kentucky, by Phillip Taylor, Gen. Pub. Co., 1967. E. Kaspar ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Bev, Part of my problem was as I indicated to Pat I was looking at Jefferson Co as it is shown on map today. I had to put my 1700 glasses on to get a better view of the big picture... What I now realize is that Kirby's tract of 85 acres in Jefferson Co, KY in 1792 may not have been anywhere near Jefferson Co, KY as we know it today. As a family researcher, I have to keep reminding myself to view the territory and locations as they existed at the time of the event. Otherwise I find myself looking for someone a long way from where they actually were. Rex -----Original Message----- From: Ms2001@aol.com [mailto:Ms2001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 12:48 PM To: VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Cavaliers and Pioneers I cannot answer most of your questions - perhaps Paul can - but the short answer is that the land was in KY - Jefferson County was always in the KY territory and certainly in Ky after it became a state which was apparantly close to his date of recordation. Kentucky County was formed in 1777 when Fincastle was divided into Kentucky, Montgomery and Washington Counties. It was split into Fayette, Lincoln and Jefferson shortly afterwards in 1780. I would imagine that it took some time to transfer everything over to KY courts. Also remember it took many days to ride all the way over to KY. Paul? Can you shed more light on this? Bev ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [VAROOTS] Cavaliers and Pioneers Date: 9/5/2003 1:28:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: <A HREF="mailto:rex@tyler.net">rex@tyler.net</A> Reply-to: <A HREF="mailto:VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com">VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com</A> To: <A HREF="mailto:VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com">VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com</A> Sent from the Internet (Details) Thanks, Bev The Samuel Kirby grant is dated 26 April 1792 according to the VA land site but specifically states in a Note that the land was located in Jefferson Co, KY which suggests to me that by April KY was a state. If so, at that point, how would VA be able to issue a grant for land lying in KY? Or could the transaction have been somewhat earlier and the "date" shown is the date it was recorded rather than the date of the grant? Or if the land was actually part of VA at the time of the grant does that mean that someone after the fact of KY becoming a separate state sat down and plotted out each track to be able to state the location as being Jefferson Co, KY? One other detail...did a person or family have to live on the land (or contiguous land) to get the patent or grant? My problem is simply that I'm trying to figure out where Samuel Kirby lived -- VA or KY or perhaps neither? I didn't realize until I started this research that I was so deficient in my education concerning colonial America... It's back to the books for me...but really you and Paul have been very helpful. Rex -----Original Message----- From: Ms2001@aol.com [mailto:Ms2001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:33 AM To: VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Cavaliers and Pioneers Kentucky became a state in 1792 - up to that point it was part of Virginia. It's hard to track legal documents if you do not know the formation of Virginia cities and counties and thr states that spun off from Virginia. Virginia started with 8 'shires' or counties. Those developed into 100 in the 1950s but has been reduced as some of them have incorporated and become independent cities. Many families lived in 5 or 6 different counties and never moved! If a patent says 'adjoins his own land', then obviously he did own land ther before the patent. This land could be been purchased or it could have been a patent - some pages of the old patent books are illegible or destroyed. You might check county records to see if there is a purchase recorded. Bev ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [VAROOTS] Cavaliers and Pioneers Date: 9/5/2003 11:18:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: <A HREF="mailto:rex@tyler.net">rex@tyler.net</A> Reply-to: HREF="mailto:VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com">VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com To: <A HREF="mailto:VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com">VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com</A> Sent from the Internet (Details) Paul, You have been most helpful in helping unravel just what these records mean or should I say what they don't tell us about our very early ancestors. But there are two more puzzling items about these records, patents and/or grants or conveyances by other means such as deeds or the certificates you mention: I noticed the description of the property in a number of instances referred to land which "adjoins his own land." If that means what I think it means, then it would indicate that the grantee in this particular patent or grant already owned land adjacent to this land. Logically, I would then surmise there was an earlier grant or patent to this same grantee. If so, why can't I find the earlier grant or patent indexed in the records? What part of the records am I overlooking? The second item that puzzles me- and again at the risk of showing my ignorance of VA and KY history (which I admit) - there are any number of grants or patents recorded in VA which refer to land in KY. One in particular, a grant to Samuel Kirby 26 April 1792 of 584 acres located in Jefferson Co, KY. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Jefferson Co on the opposite side of KY from the VA/KY line? If I am reading that correctly does that mean that either the colonial land office of VA or the Commonwealth of VA issued patents and/or grants to land lying in KY? If so, did the grantee live in VA or in KY? How would VA be able to dole out land lying in KY? I haven't located or looked at an old map of colonial VA just yet but did it extend all the way to the western side of KY. If so, why would the description of the land refer to a particular county in KY. Or could it be that the location of the land shown on the VA land site was supplied by someone long after the original patent or grant? I was unable to access the actual document since I don't have the TIFF reader (but will solve that problem today -maybe) I guess my real question is simply whether or not a person found as a grantee in the VA land records actually lived in VA on the date of or at about the time of the patent or grant? In other words where did Samuel Kirby live in 1792 - VA or KY? Or did he live in VA, move to KY and then apply for the grant in VA? Does this mean that just because a person is listed as a grantee of a patent or grant in VA land records that person may not have lived in VA? Straighten me out here Paul. This is crucial to my search for ancestors. Rex -----Original Message----- From: Paul Drake [mailto:pauldrake@charter.net] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 7:51 AM To: VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Cavaliers and Pioneers When land escheated for whatever reason (usually for failure to "seat"it) the regranting of that tract quite usually was by "certificate" and not again by grant. You will find many such certificates mentioned in Nugent and in the works by others following her efforts. Notice that assignments or patent rights usually only appeared in the records of the county in which the land was situate. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237