Esq. was usually used to refer to a lawyer most of the times. It may have applied to others, I don't know. Dorothy C. White [email protected] 804.795.4296 > -----Original Message----- > From: Doris R. Ryan [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:59 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Re: "Gentlemen" > > > Paul, > A Colonial ancestor, a land owner/justice, is listed with > Esq. following his > name. > Was Esquire at that time a courtesy title, as opposed to the > old Eng. title > for a candidate for knighthood? > Doris > > > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > >

Do you have a marriage Bond for him/her? In a message dated 12/22/2005 2:35:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: wouldn't that marriage bond be for the bride rather than the groom? The one that I have was for the bride signed by her father and witnessed by clerk of the court and one other witness. It was addressed to the Clerk of the Court in the county they were married in.

Joseph Miller is huge brickwall in my research. I do not know the VA city/county in which he was born, nor the names of his parents or of any potential siblings. This is what I have with the source in parentheses: Born in 1805 (from his tombstone) Married Mary Rorer abt 1833 in Huntingdon County, PA (family and court house records) Died 27 Feb 1886 in Huntingdon County, PA (tombstone and family records) Buried in Bethel Cemetery, Germany Valley Road, Huntingdon County, PA Children Soloman, Samuel, George, Mary, Franklin, Barbara, and Isabella (family records) I know this is probably a long shot, but wonder if anyone recognizes this Joseph Miller. Thanks. S. Palmer

Tim I don't have it, but would be interested to know which family this is. "We" have a Mary Clay, b. ca 1718, Henrico, who is said to have married Edward Watkins, ca 1735. Mary was dau of Henry and Mary (Mitchell) Clay. We have Phoebe Belcher marrying Mitchell Clay ca 1760. Mitchell was son of William Mitchell and Martha (perhaps Lewis) Clay. The "We" in this case are members of the Clay Family Society -- and the author of the upcoming book on the Clays, Bruces and Kavanaughs. Maybe we can help. We are having a meeting in Chesterfield, VA in June. Care to join us? Pat (in Tucson) |-----Original Message----- |From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] |Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 20:25 |To: [email protected] |Subject: [VAROOTS] Richard BELCHER Marriage Bond | | | |Does anyone have a marriage bond/record for Richard BELCHER, |b. ~ 1710 in |Henrico Co., VA that supposedly married a Mary CLAY? Thanks, Tim | | | |============================== |Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your |family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added |in the last 12 months. Learn more: |http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx | |

Hello, Doris. The term "Esq." in recent centuries in the U.S. means "lawyer" or one trained in the law. In a few instances, the title was applied to justices of the peace while that person occupied that position, but only then. In the 18th century and earlier it usually meant any person entitled to that measure of dignity next below a knight. In still earlier times, it was the term by which attendants of knights were known. Genealogy without documentation is nothing. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Doris R. Ryan To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Re: "Gentlemen" Paul, A Colonial ancestor, a land owner/justice, is listed with Esq. following his name. Was Esquire at that time a courtesy title, as opposed to the old Eng. title for a candidate for knighthood? Doris Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.3/209 - Release Date: 12/21/2005

Paul, A Colonial ancestor, a land owner/justice, is listed with Esq. following his name. Was Esquire at that time a courtesy title, as opposed to the old Eng. title for a candidate for knighthood? Doris

Was Mary Elizabeth Hatchell Reese (1828-1889), widow of Joseph A. Reese (1798-1870), related to B.W. and C.W. Ogburn, whose land adjoined hers in the Buckhorn District of Mecklenburg Co., Va. ? When the property (65a m/l) was sold at auction in Union Level in 1895, it was purchased by Mary O. Bugg. Was she an Ogburn? Doris

I have a marriage bond for her, and the marriage license for them dated January 19, 1835. Two separate pieces both on the same day. The Clerk of the Court signed and sealed both. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Debbie, Thank you for your reply. Of her three siblings and her parents, Sue is the only one I found to ever use the Stovall surname Once she married, she of course dropped the Stovall surname. Thanks, Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] STOVALL Sue, VA, Halifax Co. 1865, > 1900 > Season's Greetings Larry and VAROOTS-List, > > Do You know if the artist, Queena Stovall is in this family? > She was born in Amherst County, Virginia in 1887 and died in 1980. > Her real name was Emma Serena Stovall. > > Her awesome paintings were memories of her own life, including quite a few > of her black friends and neighbors. > > Hope this might possibly help You in some way. > Debbie > > > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.3/209 - Release Date: 12/21/2005 > >

Season's Greetings Larry and VAROOTS-List, Do You know if the artist, Queena Stovall is in this family? She was born in Amherst County, Virginia in 1887 and died in 1980. Her real name was Emma Serena Stovall. Her awesome paintings were memories of her own life, including quite a few of her black friends and neighbors. Hope this might possibly help You in some way. Debbie

wouldn't that marriage bond be for the bride rather than the groom? The one that I have was for the bride signed by her father and witnessed by clerk of the court and one other witness. It was addressed to the Clerk of the Court in the county they were married in. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Does anyone have a marriage bond/record for Richard BELCHER, b. ~ 1710 in Henrico Co., VA that supposedly married a Mary CLAY? Thanks, Tim

Greetings, Sue Stovall / Younger who was black, married October 2, 1969 in Halifax County Va. to Daniel Younger. Daniel by the 1880 census was calling himself Daniel Chappell (his parents surname) instead of Younger. The marriage took place at the home of a white J.B (Jonathan Brekenridge) Stovall. The parents of Sue were Primus and Maria Younger, who had apparently been slaves of Joel Younger (Joel held abt 35 slaves in 1860). Because Sue married using the surname Stovall, at the home of J.B. Stovall, while her parents were calling themselves Younger, I am guessing that somehow before she married, Sue had become a slave to J.B. Stovall. In the 1860 Census Slave Schedules, J.B. Stovall was listed as holding about 63 slaves. Anybody out there with info on J.B Stovall or his slaves? Thanks in advance, Larry .

that is very interesting - thank you for sharing. Marie -----Original Message----- From: Paul Drake <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:26:47 -0600 Subject: [VAROOTS] Re: "Gentlemen" ----- Original Message ----- From: qvarizona To: Paul Drake Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:23 AM Subject: Re: "Gentlemen" Paul. When did this practice fade away and the term "gentleman" begin to mean only a polite man of good manners? Joanne ***** An answer to that specific and often asked question is, in the late 19th and early 20th Century as Victorian manners of speaking gradually faded away. Your ancestors would gag to hear the TV news folks call low-life criminals "that gentleman" or "Mr.". Your use of the word "noble" in conjunction with gentleman is noteworthy, since those words usually had very different meanings. The former were born to nobility, and it could be gained no other way. That said, the records/writings of the 17th and early 18th Century reveal that those who had been knighted were SOMETIMES viewed as nobility, but surely not always. As an example, occasionally, Sir Francis Drake (a commoner knighted by Elizabeth I) was referred to as a nobleman, but not consistently. One could become a gentleman or gentlelady by achieving affluence or standing in the community, however they could not thereby become "noble". Similarly, members of the nobility might be called gentlemen (or gentlewomen), however those of nobility would be expected to have viewed being so addressed as beneath their station, and such usage would not have been appreciated. Finally, the term "Mr." was an indication of a person of the highest standing, and just below the nobility. The term was almost NEVER applied to other than men of very high position. The VA Burgesses usually were addressed as "Mister", however when they were no longer in office, they quite usually were not any longer so labeled. The term "Mrs." likewise revealed a lady of VERY high standing, however it was exceedingly rare for a lady to be a "Mrs." unless her husband had earned the title of "Mr.". In that regard, it is interesting that in the Surry Tithables lists for a couple years in the 1670s Judith (Burton?) Hunt Parker was listed as "Mrs. Parker", yet her husband, sometimes "Dr.", usually pewterer Richard Parker was not referred to as "Mr.". Why, I have not been able to learn. For your interest, Philip Bruce has a most interesting discussion of the these matters of titles in his "Economic History of VA in the 17th Century" Genealogy without documentation is nothing. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx

----- Original Message ----- From: qvarizona To: Paul Drake Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:23 AM Subject: Re: "Gentlemen" Paul. When did this practice fade away and the term "gentleman" begin to mean only a polite man of good manners? Joanne ***** An answer to that specific and often asked question is, in the late 19th and early 20th Century as Victorian manners of speaking gradually faded away. Your ancestors would gag to hear the TV news folks call low-life criminals "that gentleman" or "Mr.". Your use of the word "noble" in conjunction with gentleman is noteworthy, since those words usually had very different meanings. The former were born to nobility, and it could be gained no other way. That said, the records/writings of the 17th and early 18th Century reveal that those who had been knighted were SOMETIMES viewed as nobility, but surely not always. As an example, occasionally, Sir Francis Drake (a commoner knighted by Elizabeth I) was referred to as a nobleman, but not consistently. One could become a gentleman or gentlelady by achieving affluence or standing in the community, however they could not thereby become "noble". Similarly, members of the nobility might be called gentlemen (or gentlewomen), however those of nobility would be expected to have viewed being so addressed as beneath their station, and such usage would not have been appreciated. Finally, the term "Mr." was an indication of a person of the highest standing, and just below the nobility. The term was almost NEVER applied to other than men of very high position. The VA Burgesses usually were addressed as "Mister", however when they were no longer in office, they quite usually were not any longer so labeled. The term "Mrs." likewise revealed a lady of VERY high standing, however it was exceedingly rare for a lady to be a "Mrs." unless her husband had earned the title of "Mr.". In that regard, it is interesting that in the Surry Tithables lists for a couple years in the 1670s Judith (Burton?) Hunt Parker was listed as "Mrs. Parker", yet her husband, sometimes "Dr.", usually pewterer Richard Parker was not referred to as "Mr.". Why, I have not been able to learn. For your interest, Philip Bruce has a most interesting discussion of the these matters of titles in his "Economic History of VA in the 17th Century" Genealogy without documentation is nothing. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com>

So the men that came into Jamestown and were referenced on the ships log as Gentlemen were men of upperclass? noble? Marie -----Original Message----- From: Paul Drake <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:01:22 -0600 Subject: [VAROOTS] Re: "Gentlemen" Paul, can you answer this, regarding the use of the address "gentleman"? Seems like I should know, but my mind is blank. Was "gentleman" a term used for members of the county commissioners as well as other men of distinction? Thanks, Joanne * Ms. Joanne: The term means a man who was considered to be of elevated station or class by birth, as opposed to harsh, rough, coarse, vulgar, etc. Revealing its use are the words of Johnson (1755) "a man of birth, not a nobleman" Interestingly, Shakespeare admits of the possibility that one can rise above himself to the category of a gentleman. He wrote of one "raised above the vulgar by his character or past". Bacon noted that a "gentlewoman" was "well descended." Though you did not ask, those terms were never used in reference to other than persons who were or had risen to the ranks above the common man or woman, and those entitled to even greater respect were called "Mr." (or, also, "Mrs.). Genealogy without documentation is nothing. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

NOT noble, but yes, some were gentlemen. Genealogy without documentation is nothing. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 6:24 AM Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Re: "Gentlemen" So the men that came into Jamestown and were referenced on the ships log as Gentlemen were men of upperclass? noble? Marie -----Original Message----- From: Paul Drake <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:01:22 -0600 Subject: [VAROOTS] Re: "Gentlemen" Paul, can you answer this, regarding the use of the address "gentleman"? Seems like I should know, but my mind is blank. Was "gentleman" a term used for members of the county commissioners as well as other men of distinction? Thanks, Joanne * Ms. Joanne: The term means a man who was considered to be of elevated station or class by birth, as opposed to harsh, rough, coarse, vulgar, etc. Revealing its use are the words of Johnson (1755) "a man of birth, not a nobleman" Interestingly, Shakespeare admits of the possibility that one can rise above himself to the category of a gentleman. He wrote of one "raised above the vulgar by his character or past". Bacon noted that a "gentlewoman" was "well descended." Though you did not ask, those terms were never used in reference to other than persons who were or had risen to the ranks above the common man or woman, and those entitled to even greater respect were called "Mr." (or, also, "Mrs.). Genealogy without documentation is nothing. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/207 - Release Date: 12/19/2005

Just got my copy of "Scots On the Chesapeake". There are several GRANT names that I would love to know more about. If you have any information on the names below , please let me know: GRANT, Alexander b 1734 , planter, sett Culpepper Co VA , militiaman in VA Regt 1756 GRANT, Alexander , merchant, sett Portsmouth VA , pre 1781, Loyalist , settled NS ( Nova Scotia ? ) GRANT, William , b 1750 , groom,sh, Mar 1774 , fr. London to VA on "Brilliant" GRANT,Willaim , b 1750, sett. Montgomery Cp VA, pre 1776 GRANT, Willaim, b 1699, weaver, res Aberdeen, Jabobite, fr 5, May 1747, fr Liverpool to VA , on "Gildart", arr. Port North Potomac, Md 5 Aug 1747 Thanks, Molly

Paul, can you answer this, regarding the use of the address "gentleman"? Seems like I should know, but my mind is blank. Was "gentleman" a term used for members of the county commissioners as well as other men of distinction? Thanks, Joanne * Ms. Joanne: The term means a man who was considered to be of elevated station or class by birth, as opposed to harsh, rough, coarse, vulgar, etc. Revealing its use are the words of Johnson (1755) "a man of birth, not a nobleman" Interestingly, Shakespeare admits of the possibility that one can rise above himself to the category of a gentleman. He wrote of one "raised above the vulgar by his character or past". Bacon noted that a "gentlewoman" was "well descended." Though you did not ask, those terms were never used in reference to other than persons who were or had risen to the ranks above the common man or woman, and those entitled to even greater respect were called "Mr." (or, also, "Mrs.). Genealogy without documentation is nothing. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com>

I MUST APPOLOGIGE FOR MY EMAIL RECENTLY SENT. I WAS WORKING IN AN OLD DIGEST AND FORGOT WHAT DATE I WAS IN. I HAVE BEEN WORKING IN DEC AND NOV POSTINGS THE PAST FEW DAYS TRYING TO GET CAUGHT UP AFTER MY HIATIS AND GUESS MY MIND WAS STILL STRIVING IN THE HIATIS. SO SORRY LIST FOR MY LAPS OF CONCENTRATION. I WILL TRY TO TAKE MORE CLOSER NOTICE OF THE DATES I AM WORKING IN/ON. BEEJ (http://siggiez.com/countdownz/ch/index2.cgi)