Is this the gossiping case? http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up (1st paragraph) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened on > Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > ----------- > There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, > again, for gossiping. > > After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > I don't know. > > Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > > Pete, is this our Sarah? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%22+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > > (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >> is our Sara. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>> >>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >> lists >>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >> WIC. >>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>> >>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble for >>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >> in >>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>> qualities. >>> >>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >> record >>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>> >>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >> occupation, >>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>> >>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >> possibly >>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >> they >>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>> -------- >>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >> Aside >>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >> Sara, >>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >> one >>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>> >>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>> >>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The somewhat >>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >> of >>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >> or >>> some sort of cousin. >>> >>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>> I >>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was his wife. Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church --------------. While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's the last record of them I can find. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Is this the gossiping case? http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up (1st paragraph) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened > on > Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > ----------- > There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, > again, for gossiping. > > After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > I don't know. > > Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > > Pete, is this our Sarah? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%22+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > > (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >> is our Sara. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>> >>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >> lists >>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >> WIC. >>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>> >>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>> for >>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >> in >>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>> qualities. >>> >>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >> record >>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>> >>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >> occupation, >>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>> >>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >> possibly >>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >> they >>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>> -------- >>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >> Aside >>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >> Sara, >>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >> one >>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>> >>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>> >>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>> somewhat >>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >> of >>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >> or >>> some sort of cousin. >>> >>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>> I >>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>> Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I love all of this background information Pete. It really adds personality to our search. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was his wife. Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church --------------. While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's the last record of them I can find. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Is this the gossiping case? http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up (1st paragraph) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened > on > Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > ----------- > There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, > again, for gossiping. > > After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > I don't know. > > Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > > Pete, is this our Sarah? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > > (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >> is our Sara. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>> >>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >> lists >>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >> WIC. >>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>> >>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>> for >>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >> in >>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>> qualities. >>> >>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >> record >>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>> >>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >> occupation, >>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>> >>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >> possibly >>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >> they >>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>> -------- >>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >> Aside >>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >> Sara, >>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >> one >>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>> >>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>> >>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>> somewhat >>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >> of >>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >> or >>> some sort of cousin. >>> >>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>> I >>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>> Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message