Page 223 gives a better account of Sara's gossiping, and page 294 describes the land that Pete mentioned having been leased. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:40 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Very interesting - all of it. The incident, the pertenance of > "brother-in-law" and the book itself. > > I wonder what the source of it was... Are the original (that is > translated and transcribed "original") records available? > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Regards, >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >