Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are causing my (current) confusion. 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr & wife Helena Jansen 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan Ekkeson sr & wife Apalonia Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Correct.  The lists are only of  those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination.  Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense.  Safety and accountability (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it.  But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now.  Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so.  Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest?  The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers?  Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing?  I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family.  I always enjoy >> reading your emails.  Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family?  Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists".  The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that.  What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand.  My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading.  Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage:  Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks.  If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were.  I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have been married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different records on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any likely variation named Thomas. There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the generations of the family. There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her name does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or mistranscribed. And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of which head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine got mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the time. (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are causing my (current) confusion. 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr & wife Helena Jansen 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan Ekkeson sr & wife Apalonia Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists > and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner > probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability > (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and > the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is > when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message