Pete: So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because these lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain have any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons at the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want and need to know. You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. Do you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been studying the VN family? Thanks Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet aren't actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid before sailing. I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a flier on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for the passage on the other end was logically something less than that. Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the wedding took place at the end of the fourth. Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's what most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" in Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". --pete

Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the immigrants to New Amsterdam. The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability (largely modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. How much fraternization went on I have no clue. I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > Pete: > > So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's > names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at > online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because > these > lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain > have > any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons > at > the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want > and need to know. > > You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy > reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. > Do > you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been > studying the VN family? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet > aren't > > actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' > account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid > before sailing. > > I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a > flier > on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid > deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an > empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for > the > passage on the other end was logically something less than that. > > Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted > at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an > objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the > wedding took place at the end of the fourth. > > Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." > Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's > what > most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" > in > > Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". > > --pete > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >