As a side note to my previous message, countries were also defined to some extent as land owned by the king or royal family, or who owed them fielty. However, the ruling family could inherit lands outside their contigious bounderies, similiar to King George II inheriting the whole of England. This was also true of the Netherlands. The Hapsbergs had several large holdings outside their contiguous bounderies. Unifying disperate holdings by various monarchies played heavily in the Eighty Years' War. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:33 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > John Rogers (Rogers -> Harriet Estelle VO -> Sardine Stone -> Abraham -> > Abraham -> Lucas -> Isaac Jansz etc.) I'm in the US. > > I don't believe they are Scandinavian (that is Holland, Finland, Norway). > They are almost certainly "from" the Netherlands, and there's no reason I > know of that to believe they were born elsewhere. > > Since it's on topic of modern last names, don't forget that our > understanding of countries is also a modern construct. Belguim and the > Netherlands have not only seen upheaval in modern times, with map lines > redrawn after World War I and World War II, but the Netherlands was > not unified until 1540 under the Hapsburgs. However, being a small country, > there were constant struggles against Belgium, Prussia, and even Spain. > During the Eighty Year' War (1568–1648), they were split in two. Since this > is in the time-frame of Jan Dirksz, in terms of political bounderies, it > would be necessary to specify north or south Netherlands. Going backwards in > time, they were comprised of several "countries", and before that a > multitude city-states, confederacies, and fiefdoms in the middle ages. > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Susan Claggett < > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >> >> jroguetech@gmail.com what is your name? You have been sharing lots of >> great >> info with us but I don't know who you are by name. Are you in the US or >> in >> Holland? Thanks for your contributions! >> >> Susan >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:00 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Last names weren't formally adopted (in New Amsterdam) until 1687, and >> weren't in common use for much longer, even into the 1800's. >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/pat.shtml >> >> Most records show Jan Dirksz as Jan Dirckszen >> http://www.altlaw.com/edball/dutchbap.htm >> (baptism date, father, mother, child, witness, witness) >> Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria Wouters >> 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, Mayken >> Laurens >> 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna Le >> Maistre >> 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> Tryntie >> Hercks >> 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel >> Terneur, >> Hester de La >> Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> (?) 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden (I have >> Marie listed as a child, but unsourced beyond this record.) >> [This particuliar site is not easily sourced, since it's one long list; >> there's a several sites with New Amsterdam baptisms and marriages. If >> anyone >> needs this info with years, I can provide urls.] >> >> Among others, also listed are Jan Dirckszen Straetman or >> Straetmaecker (Street maker), Jan Dirckszen de Meyer/Mayer, Jan Dircxen op >> Hoboken, Jan Dirckszen van Bremen, and Jan Dirckszen van Amsterdam. There >> are also at least two, possibly three Sara Theunis'. >> >> Here's his marriage record, as being "van Arnhem". In addition to what >> Pete >> says, since he was a soldier, it's that much less reliable as a birth >> place. >> (I have a soldier of the Dutch West India Co., but I have no source.) Sara >> Theunis is listed as from Rotterdam. Possibly more reliable, but Rotterdam >> being a port city, it may have been more convient using her >> (possible) departure place than her actual home. Lot's of times, I've >> seem numerous immigrant ancester of mine using "New York" or "New Jersey" >> in >> census records, rather than actual original country of origin. Note that >> the >> patronym system also applies to Sara - "Sara Theuniszen", or "daughter of >> Theunis". >> >> Soort bron: Trouwboek >> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >> Gezindte: NDG >> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >> Jongedochter bruid: J >> Vorige partner bruidegom: >> Vorige partner bruid: >> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >> >> Translation: >> Source Type: Wedding Book >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >> Belief: NDG >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >> Groom: January Dircksz >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >> Young Daughter bride: J >> Previous partner groom: >> Previous partner bride >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >> [ >> >> http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRKQ2HdQx1CjKpnEFMD >> hX&xtr=21967397<http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRKQ2HdQx1CjKpnEFMDhX&xtr=21967397> >> ] >> >> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > May I point out again that "Van Arnhem", at least as it applies to the >> > records of Jan Dircks Van Arnhem who married Sarah Theunis, is clearly a >> > descriptor, not a surname. It means he was "from" Arnhem; perhaps born >> > there, perhaps raised there, perhaps lived there for a while before he >> came >> > to New Amsterdam. >> > >> > Half a dozen bits collectively suggest to me he probably wasn't born in >> > Arnhem. Among them was a scan several years ago through the Netherlands >> > indices suggested by jroguetech in which I could find no one who looked >> > very >> > much like our Jan Dircks. (Didn't find a Sarah Theunis, either.) >> > >> > Jan Dirck's children didn't begin using the Van Arnhem surname until >> around >> > 1695, 14 years after the last record that mentions their father (who was >> > still using the presumed patronymic "Dircksen"). In other words, for >> more >> > than 30 years after 1664 the family was NOT named Van Arnhem. >> > >> > (Please don't ask why they eventually adopted a surname their father >> never >> > seems to have used. It's another of many things about the early family >> > that >> > don't seem to make any sense.) >> > >> > --pete >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 9:50 PM >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> > >> > >> > > >> > > I'm having trouble figuring out how to use this website. Could you >> post >> > > the >> > > results for the Van Arnhem's to this list? Thanks >> > > >> > > Susan Van Orman Claggett >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:43 PM >> > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> > > >> > > Here's a resource that shows some Van Arnhem's in Holland, going back >> as >> > > far >> > > as the 1600's. >> > > >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=10004 >> > > >> > > This has resources for New Amsterdam, New Holland: >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=193 >> > > (enter "Nieuw Amsterdam-New York" as Plaats) >> > > >> > > Does anyone have other resources for tracing the Van Arnhem's in >> Holland? >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >