Hi Susan, There is some speculation going around (from one person I have contact with in France and one in Belgium) - but I haven't been able to prove it - that Dirk Jansz was the son of Jan van Aernhem, who was probably a basterd son of Gerhard van Arnhem, born in 1556 in Harderwijk. (In those day's bastards were quite common, and normally they are not taken up in the standard genealogy lines - bringing many research problems with them). He was member of the noble family van Arnhem (you will find this on my website home.xmsnet,nl/pimonline/genealogie and then under the "adellijke tak" and then "overzichtspagina uit meerdere bronnen"). By the way: I have put more posts on this subject a few months ago, but they somehow were not printed in this forum. Very interesting to here from your fathers conversations! I wish indeed like you, that I had listened more to the story's of my grandfather when he was still alive. Kind regards, Pim Op 10-10-2010 22:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:33:34 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<8D26536E8AFA49C09E8F373BAEF434A3@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Pim: > > So good to hear from you again! I too am leaning to the theory that Jan > Dircks parents are Dirk Jansz van Arnhem and Magdaleentjen Jannssen and that > is why I added it to my tree to try to prove it. > > Do you have any thoughts about who Jan Dicksz from Bremen could have been? > I am seeing several familiar names surrounding him. Looking forward to your > input. > > I do remember my father telling me that our Van Orman family is from Arnhem, > The Netherlands and he went to visit the city in 1966 with my Mom. He had > been told quite a bit of family lore from his parents, grandparents, etc > which he did tell a lot of it to me but I was too young to remember the fine > details now. I so wish he had written it all down for us. He was very > proud of his family heritage and over and over discussed the bravery of the > many professional soldiers in the family. > > Susan > -----Original Message----- > From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:38 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Hi, > > "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch > parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz > van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) > who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter > Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van > Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise > all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There > was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! > > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > > Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where >> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward > kids >> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >> pregnancy.) >> >> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant > death. >> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks > and >> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she > appears >> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other >> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >> >> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good >> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been > pretty >> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >> >> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a >> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and > was, >> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, >> independent of each other. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> John, >>> >>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>> >>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>> 31, >>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>> LOL. >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, > Barentje >>> Jans >>> - page 76 >>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>> Ariaentie >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, > Agniet >>> Lodovyckszen >>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >>> - page 78 >>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>> Marie Dopzen >>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes > Verleth, >>> El >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>> intact. >>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as > paying >>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >>> in >>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>> not >>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>> >>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>> were >>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>> that >>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >>> to >>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>> apprentishship >>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today > with >>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>> she >>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >>> J" >>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>> >>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>> >>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>> other >>>> staff. >>>> >>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait > to >>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? > If >>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>> married >>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>> Belief: NDG >>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>> Previous partner groom: >>>> Previous partner bride >>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>> would >>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>> his >>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>>> the >>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>> flip-flopping >>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>>> have >>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>> >>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>> >>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>> have >>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>> have >>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>> during) >>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>> speculating over). >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>>> work >>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>> children >>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>> obviously >>>> a >>>>>> different person. >>>>>> >>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>> wise >>>>>> the >>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>> >>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>>> Did >>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>>> Teunis >>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>> >>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all > over >> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated >> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where > to >> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >> >> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of >> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan > Dircks >> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's >> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >> >> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in > the >> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died > they >> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and >> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee >> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >> >> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as > godparents >> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks > because >> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >> >> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man > that >> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, >> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after >> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of >> his known life. >> >> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so >> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More >> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the >> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >> >> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> >> >>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I > have >>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>> officer >>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>> Prince >>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>> fact? >>> >>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> *Individual Summary:* >>> >>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sex: >>> >>> Male >>> >>> >>> Father: >>> >>> Jan Derryckssen >>> >>> >>> Mother: >>> >>> Gerriken Beecken >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Individual Facts:* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Birth: >>> >>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 33 >>> >>> >>> Death: >>> >>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Military Service: >>> >>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Shared Facts:* >>> >>> *Magdalena Jans* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Marriage: >>> >>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 1692 >>> >>> >>> Children: >>> >>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> *Notes:* >>> >>> >>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>> >>> >>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>> >>> >>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because > these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain > have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons > at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. > Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet > aren't >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a > flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for > the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's > what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" > in >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at > their >> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists > and >> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the >> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >> >> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner > probably >> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability > (largely >> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another >> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >> >> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and > the >> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >> >> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated > on >> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is > when >> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >> >> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would > want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were > posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:59:07 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<9FDD75DE2F014877B3C1C461960C1D2F@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > One piece of info my Dad (Frederick Harold Van Orman III) told me is that > his 5th great grandfather Issac van Arnhem (Aernam); bapt. 4 May 1704; > Revolutionary soldier; 27 Jan 1777 was one of the original signers of the > "Oath of Secrecy", for Committee of Correspondence. > > He also told me that his Van Orman side of the family arrived in the New > World about 20 years after the Mayflower. He said that the Van Orman's > married several direct Mayflower descendents which I have been able to track > through Hatch, Paddock, Cornell and a few other lines in my pedigree. > > One other bit of family lore he passed on to me is that the Van Orman > pedigree carries Viking and Norman blood. Not sure what that means > actually. > > My brother took a Y DNA test confirming that we descend from what is > believed to be the early NY VO line. > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:34 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > > Pim: > > So good to hear from you again! I too am leaning to the theory that Jan > Dircks parents are Dirk Jansz van Arnhem and Magdaleentjen Jannssen and that > is why I added it to my tree to try to prove it. > > Do you have any thoughts about who Jan Dicksz from Bremen could have been? > I am seeing several familiar names surrounding him. Looking forward to your > input. > > I do remember my father telling me that our Van Orman family is from Arnhem, > The Netherlands and he went to visit the city in 1966 with my Mom. He had > been told quite a bit of family lore from his parents, grandparents, etc > which he did tell a lot of it to me but I was too young to remember the fine > details now. I so wish he had written it all down for us. He was very > proud of his family heritage and over and over discussed the bravery of the > many professional soldiers in the family. > > Susan > -----Original Message----- > From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:38 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Hi, > > "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch > parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz > van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) > who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter > Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van > Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise > all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There > was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! > > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > > Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where >> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward > kids >> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >> pregnancy.) >> >> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant > death. >> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks > and >> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she > appears >> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other >> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >> >> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good >> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been > pretty >> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >> >> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a >> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and > was, >> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, >> independent of each other. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> John, >>> >>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>> >>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>> 31, >>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>> LOL. >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, > Barentje >>> Jans >>> - page 76 >>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>> Ariaentie >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, > Agniet >>> Lodovyckszen >>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >>> - page 78 >>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>> Marie Dopzen >>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes > Verleth, >>> El >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>> intact. >>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as > paying >>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >>> in >>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>> not >>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>> >>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>> were >>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>> that >>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >>> to >>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>> apprentishship >>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today > with >>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>> she >>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >>> J" >>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>> >>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>> >>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>> other >>>> staff. >>>> >>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait > to >>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? > If >>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>> married >>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>> Belief: NDG >>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>> Previous partner groom: >>>> Previous partner bride >>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>> would >>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>> his >>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>>> the >>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>> flip-flopping >>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>>> have >>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>> >>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>> >>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>> have >>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>> have >>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>> during) >>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>> speculating over). >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>>> work >>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>> children >>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>> obviously >>>> a >>>>>> different person. >>>>>> >>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>> wise >>>>>> the >>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>> >>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>>> Did >>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>>> Teunis >>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>> >>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all > over >> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated >> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where > to >> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >> >> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of >> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan > Dircks >> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's >> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >> >> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in > the >> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died > they >> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and >> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee >> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >> >> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as > godparents >> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks > because >> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >> >> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man > that >> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, >> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after >> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of >> his known life. >> >> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so >> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More >> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the >> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >> >> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> >> >>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I > have >>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>> officer >>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>> Prince >>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>> fact? >>> >>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> *Individual Summary:* >>> >>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sex: >>> >>> Male >>> >>> >>> Father: >>> >>> Jan Derryckssen >>> >>> >>> Mother: >>> >>> Gerriken Beecken >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Individual Facts:* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Birth: >>> >>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 33 >>> >>> >>> Death: >>> >>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Military Service: >>> >>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Shared Facts:* >>> >>> *Magdalena Jans* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Marriage: >>> >>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 1692 >>> >>> >>> Children: >>> >>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> *Notes:* >>> >>> >>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>> >>> >>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>> >>> >>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because > these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain > have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons > at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. > Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet > aren't >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a > flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for > the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's > what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" > in >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at > their >> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists > and >> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the >> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >> >> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner > probably >> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability > (largely >> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another >> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >> >> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and > the >> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >> >> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated > on >> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is > when >> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >> >> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would > want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were > posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 139 > ***************************************** > >