Hi Susan, I'm packing right now to travel coming week to Spain, so at this moment I'll give you a very short answer, hoping to reply more in detail when I return. Good to see that Jan used his surname as soon as his wedding: that supports that Van Arnhem is his surname, and not te place where he came from (Sara is'nt called Sara van Rotterdam to make a comparison!). Then your questions: I have the information that Jan was baptized on saterday 13 october 1640 in Arnhem [Dutchs Hervormd] and travelled with "Het Gebroken Hart" (Broken Heart) when he came to New York in januari 1664. For the source of this info I have to dig it up later. I haven't done research on Sarah, so probably Pete is right in his argument ... but we still can't be sure building on arguments. There are written already many thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sarah's first child and the date of wedding. I don't know how long a trip was, but probably Sarah was already pregnant (by Jan) before they left te Neterlands. I have many accounts (even of people born in the 20th century) of children being born a few months after de weddingday: the couple being in love haven a sexual relationship before marriage ... nothing new under the sun - especcially not for soldiers. But for this, we should know how long the boat trip was and I don't have that clear right now. There has been a noble Van Arnhem family in the Netherlands as far as we know from around the year 1100 up to 1716 when the last of these noble Van Arnhems died, without leaving children. But, there are several "bastards" from this family. A basterd was not a noble man and most of the time they didn't have any part of the inheritance of their father. This is probably the reason for some of the Van Arnhem family-branches in the Netherlands (in one instance I'm quite sure of it). Thanks for your honest questions and the open mind to research all possibilities. Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 11-10-2010 13:24, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) (Susan Claggett) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 05:57:09 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<5667DFD770794BB880314E7BAE7D79D3@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Pim, > > Jan Dirckzen does actually use his surname on his wedding record in 1664: > > 1664 28 Jun; Jan Dirckszen, van Aernhem, Soldaet; Sara Theuniszen, jd van > Rotterdam > > Could you please tell me more about his arrival in New Amsterdam? I have > seen it mention that he arrived in New Amsterdam in January of 1664 as a > soldier but I can't remember the name of the ship. Do you have the > information about his sailing? > > I personally don't think our Sara Theunis is a Van Salee for the reasons > that Pete has referenced previously. I found a note of his today and read > it again and it refutes it very clearly. > > What are your thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sara's first child less > than six months from their date of marriage? > > Is the Van Arnhem family a noble family in The Netherlands? What makes it > so? > > Another reference from the Fonda family tree about Jan Dirckzen surname is > below. > > Thank you! > > Regards, > > Susan > > Hester Janse FONDA, born 1672.2 She married Jan Janse VANARNAM 14 Oct > 1696.12 Jan > Janse VANARNAM was born 4 Jun 1671,13 died 1 Apr 1708.14 > b. Albany, NY; d. Albany, Albany Co., NY; had 6 children from 1697-1708: > Sara, Abraham, > Rebecca, Isaac, Rachael and Jan Dirck; [R044] Innes Getty Collection: Jellis > Douwse Fonda; > [R034] The Compendium of American Genealogy>> www.fonda.org<< > Notes for Jan Janse VANARNAM: b. NY; s/o Jan Dirckzen VanAernam (b1640 in > Holland) > and Sarah Theunis; d. Rensselaerwyck (now Troy), NY; son Isaac VanAernam > (bp. > 4-May-1704) Revolutionary Soldier was signer of original "Oath of Secrecy" > (1/27/1777), > Albany Committee of Correspondence, 115 county-wide signers, promise to keep > Committee > business secret; [R002] Pearson's First Settlers of the Ancient County of > Albany; [R093] > William Randall (1609-1693) of Scituate and his Descendants with Ancestral > Families; [R034] > The Compendium of American Genealogy>> www.fonda.org<< > Notes for Hester Janse FONDA and Jan Janse VANARNAM: m. First Dutch Reformed > Church, Albany, NY or Rennselaerwyck, NY; [R087c] Genealogical and Family > History of > Northern New York > -----Original Message----- > From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:56 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > > Hi Pete, > There was a lot of name-changing, mis-writing and experimenting with > both patronyms and surnames in those day's in the Netherlands too. So > that's no proof that Jan Dircks didn't have Van Arnhem as surname in the > Netherlands. I've seen that several times in records here, making > research sometimes troublesome. > Maybe Jan Dirks didn't (or even didn't want to) use his surname Van > Arnhem during his trip to the States, but started using it again on a > later date. A reason that his name wasn't used can be that he was indeed > a bastard descendant of the noble family van Arnhem. His father then > would have been dat Dirk Jansz officer or soldier under General Graaf > van Nassau, this is Frederick Hendrick van Nassau, who followed up > Prince Maurits. What I have as proof is that this Maurits had a Jan van > Aernhem as korporaal (officer) in service, who's father Gerhard van > Arnhem was stalmeester (stable master) of Maurits. So the line can be > Gerhard van Arnhem had a son Jan, who had a son Dirk Jansz, who had a > son Jan Dirksz, the one who emigrated to Amerika. All Van Arnhems here > have Van Arnhem as surname, not as city where the come from. If this is > the case, there was no reason to use his surname, a patronym could be > sufficient. > > I do not have any info about the Jan Dirksz from Bremen. In several > records I see that harbors are mentioned - not to be confused with > surnames - so it looks like another Jan Dircksz leaving from Bremen. > Both names Jan en Dirk were very common in the Netherlands, leaving us > with thousands of possibilities as long as we do not have the surname or > other relevant information. > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > Op 10-10-2010 23:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:37:59 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP134705BA14EFEDCFC65BCD5AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. > And >> is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and Dirckszen >> before settleing on Van Arnhem. >> >> Sorry, won't work. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Pim van Arnhem"<wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>> where >>> one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch >>> parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz >>> van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) >>> who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter >>> Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van >>> Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise >>> all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There >>> was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Pim van Arnhem >>> >>> >>> Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >>>> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>>> where >>>> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >>>> kids >>>> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >>>> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >>>> pregnancy.) >>>> >>>> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >>>> death. >>>> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks >>>> and >>>> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >>>> appears >>>> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record > other >>>> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >>>> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >>>> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >>>> >>>> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a > good >>>> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >>>> pretty >>>> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >>>> >>>> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents >>>> a >>>> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >>>> was, >>>> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >>>> fact, >>>> independent of each other. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> >>>>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>>>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>>>> not >>>>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>>>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>>>> 31, >>>>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>>>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>>>> LOL. >>>>> Thanks again! >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>>>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>>>> Barentje >>>>> Jans >>>>> - page 76 >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>>>> Willemszen, >>>>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>>>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>>>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>>>> Ariaentie >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>>>> Agniet >>>>> Lodovyckszen >>>>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan > Adamszen >>>>> - page 78 >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>>>> Marie Dopzen >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>>>> Verleth, >>>>> El >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but > ships >>>>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>>>> intact. >>>>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>>>> paying >>>>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have > been >>>>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India > Co. >>>>> in >>>>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>>>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>>>> not >>>>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>>>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>>>> but >>>>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>>>> >>>>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>>>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. > The >>>>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>>>> were >>>>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>>>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>>>> that >>>>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>>>> married >>>>> to >>>>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>>>> apprentishship >>>>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for > record >>>>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>>>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>>>> with >>>>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>>>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>>>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>>>> she >>>>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter > bruid: >>>>> J" >>>>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>>>> >>>>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. > The >>>>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>>>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with > Sara >>>>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>>>> other >>>>>> staff. >>>>>> >>>>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait >>>>>> to >>>>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>>>> If >>>>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>>>> married >>>>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was > born. >>>>>> Susan >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>>>> Belief: NDG >>>>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>>>> Previous partner groom: >>>>>> Previous partner bride >>>>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to > use >>>>>> the >>>>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>>>> flip-flopping >>>>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father > could >>>>>> have >>>>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>>>> have >>>>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>>>> during) >>>>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>>>> speculating over). >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages > won't >>>>>> work >>>>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>>>> obviously >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> different person. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>>>> wise >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>>>> our >>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>>>> children? >>>>>>>> Did >>>>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to > Sara >>>>>>>> Teunis >>>>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >>>> over >>>> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >>>> promulgated >>>> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where >>>> to >>>> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >>>> >>>> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >>>> of >>>> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. > It's >>>> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >>>> >>>> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in >>>> the >>>> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >>>> they >>>> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" > and >>>> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >>>> guarantee >>>> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >>>> >>>> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >>>> godparents >>>> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >>>> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >>>> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >>>> because >>>> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >>>> >>>> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >>>> that >>>> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >>>> fact, >>>> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >>>> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >>>> after >>>> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest > of >>>> his known life. >>>> >>>> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >>>> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing > so >>>> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >>>> More >>>> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >>>> the >>>> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >>>> >>>> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >>>> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >>>> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >>>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> >>>> >>>>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>>>> have >>>>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>>>> the >>>>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have > found >>>>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>>>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>>>> officer >>>>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>>>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>>>> Prince >>>>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>>>> fact? >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Summary:* >>>>> >>>>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sex: >>>>> >>>>> Male >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Father: >>>>> >>>>> Jan Derryckssen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mother: >>>>> >>>>> Gerriken Beecken >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Birth: >>>>> >>>>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 33 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Death: >>>>> >>>>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Military Service: >>>>> >>>>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Shared Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> *Magdalena Jans* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marriage: >>>>> >>>>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 1692 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Children: >>>>> >>>>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Notes:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>>>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the > passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability > reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>> want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on > an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>> posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant > "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for > "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>>> their >>>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>>> and >>>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>>> the >>>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>>> >>>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>>> probably >>>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>>> (largely >>>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>>> another >>>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>>> >>>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>>> the >>>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers > repeatedly. >>>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>>> >>>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about > 12 >>>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated >>>> on >>>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>>> when >>>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>>> >>>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan > Dircks >>>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for > Sarah. >>>> --pete >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Pete: >>>>> >>>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>>> passenger's >>>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>>> these >>>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>>> have >>>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>>> reasons >>>>> at >>>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>>> want >>>>> and need to know. >>>>> >>>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always > enjoy >>>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with > us. >>>>> Do >>>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have > been >>>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>>> aren't >>>>> >>>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>>> before sailing. >>>>> >>>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>>> flier >>>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to > avoid >>>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>>> an >>>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>>> the >>>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>>> posted >>>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>>> >>>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>>> "never-married." >>>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>>> what >>>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>>> "spinster" >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>>> body of the >>>> email with no additional text. >>>> >>>> >>>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >>>> ***************************************** >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:59:24 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP14345E189A7411707300E51AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. >> >> Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have > been >> married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different > records >> on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into >> which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived >> somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records >> anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any > likely >> variation named Thomas. >> >> There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van >> Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the >> generations of the family. >> >> There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her > name >> does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died >> young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or > mistranscribed. >> And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of > which >> head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine > got >> mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake >> considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the time. >> (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >> Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you >> about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even >> formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are >> causing my (current) confusion. >> >> 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, >> jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr >> & wife Helena Jansen >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan >> Ekkeson sr& wife Apalonia >> >> Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? >> >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their >>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>> and >>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of > the >>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>> >>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>> probably >>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>> (largely >>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another >>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>> >>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>> the >>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>> >>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated > on >>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>> when >>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>> >>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the > passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability > reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would > want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were > posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant > "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 140 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 144 > ***************************************** > >