Hi, "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) > 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward kids > every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to > weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another > pregnancy.) > > There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant death. > The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks and > Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she appears > at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other > than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name > Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite > often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. > > "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good > indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been pretty > scrupulous about baptising their offspring. > > My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a > nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and was, > in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, > independent of each other. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> John, >> >> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >> previously married) until you pointed it out. >> >> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >> 31, >> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >> LOL. >> Thanks again! >> >> Susan >> >> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje >> Jans >> - page 76 >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >> Juffr. Ver Brack >> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >> Jacomyntie du Wel >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >> Ariaentie >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet >> Lodovyckszen >> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >> - page 78 >> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >> Marie Dopzen >> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, >> El >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >> intact. >> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying >> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >> in >> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >> not >> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >> manifests by Dutch West Co. >> >> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >> were >> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >> that >> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >> to >> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >> apprentishship >> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with >> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >> she >> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >> J" >> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >> >> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >> >> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >> >>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>> other >>> staff. >>> >>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to >>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If >>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >> married >>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>> Belief: NDG >>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>> Groom: January Dircksz >>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>> Young Daughter bride: J >>> Previous partner groom: >>> Previous partner bride >>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>> would >>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>> his >>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>> the >>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>> flip-flopping >>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>> have >>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>> >>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>> >>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> have >>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>> have >>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>> during) >>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>> speculating over). >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>> work >>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>> children >>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> obviously >>> a >>>>> different person. >>>>> >>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>> wise >>>>> the >>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>> >>>>> My previous question: >>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>> Did >>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>> Teunis >>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>> >>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all over > the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated > it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where to > begin. Here are the two big ones. though: > > When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of > people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan Dircks > and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's > unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. > > I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in the > first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died they > themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and > doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee > the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). > > I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as godparents > other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so > barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan > Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks because > that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. > > I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man that > Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, > "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up > against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after > the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of > his known life. > > The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for > common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so > would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More > to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the > case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. > > Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an > impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the > hypothezied scion of a professional family. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > >> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have >> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >> officer >> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >> Prince >> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >> fact? >> >> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> *Individual Summary:* >> >> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> >> >> >> Sex: >> >> Male >> >> >> Father: >> >> Jan Derryckssen >> >> >> Mother: >> >> Gerriken Beecken >> >> >> >> >> >> *Individual Facts:* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birth: >> >> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 33 >> >> >> Death: >> >> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Military Service: >> >> officer under General Count von Nassau >> >> >> >> >> >> *Shared Facts:* >> >> *Magdalena Jans* >> >> >> >> >> >> Marriage: >> >> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 1692 >> >> >> Children: >> >> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Joris Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> *Notes:* >> >> >> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >> >> >> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >> >> >> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Pete: > > So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's > names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at > online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because these > lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain have > any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons at > the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want > and need to know. > > You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy > reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. Do > you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been > studying the VN family? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet aren't > > actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' > account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid > before sailing. > > I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a flier > on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid > deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an > empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for the > passage on the other end was logically something less than that. > > Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted > at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an > objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the > wedding took place at the end of the fourth. > > Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." > Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's what > most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" in > > Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". > > --pete > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 > ***************************************** > >

Pim: So good to hear from you again! I too am leaning to the theory that Jan Dircks parents are Dirk Jansz van Arnhem and Magdaleentjen Jannssen and that is why I added it to my tree to try to prove it. Do you have any thoughts about who Jan Dicksz from Bremen could have been? I am seeing several familiar names surrounding him. Looking forward to your input. I do remember my father telling me that our Van Orman family is from Arnhem, The Netherlands and he went to visit the city in 1966 with my Mom. He had been told quite a bit of family lore from his parents, grandparents, etc which he did tell a lot of it to me but I was too young to remember the fine details now. I so wish he had written it all down for us. He was very proud of his family heritage and over and over discussed the bravery of the many professional soldiers in the family. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:38 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Hi, "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) > 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward kids > every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to > weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another > pregnancy.) > > There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant death. > The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks and > Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she appears > at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other > than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name > Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite > often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. > > "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good > indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been pretty > scrupulous about baptising their offspring. > > My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a > nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and was, > in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, > independent of each other. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> John, >> >> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >> previously married) until you pointed it out. >> >> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >> 31, >> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >> LOL. >> Thanks again! >> >> Susan >> >> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje >> Jans >> - page 76 >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >> Juffr. Ver Brack >> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >> Jacomyntie du Wel >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >> Ariaentie >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet >> Lodovyckszen >> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >> - page 78 >> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >> Marie Dopzen >> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, >> El >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >> intact. >> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying >> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >> in >> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >> not >> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >> manifests by Dutch West Co. >> >> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >> were >> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >> that >> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >> to >> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >> apprentishship >> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with >> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >> she >> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >> J" >> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >> >> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >> >> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >> >>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>> other >>> staff. >>> >>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to >>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If >>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >> married >>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>> Belief: NDG >>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>> Groom: January Dircksz >>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>> Young Daughter bride: J >>> Previous partner groom: >>> Previous partner bride >>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>> would >>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>> his >>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>> the >>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>> flip-flopping >>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>> have >>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>> >>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>> >>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> have >>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>> have >>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>> during) >>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>> speculating over). >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>> work >>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>> children >>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> obviously >>> a >>>>> different person. >>>>> >>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>> wise >>>>> the >>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>> >>>>> My previous question: >>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>> Did >>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>> Teunis >>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>> >>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all over > the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated > it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where to > begin. Here are the two big ones. though: > > When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of > people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan Dircks > and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's > unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. > > I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in the > first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died they > themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and > doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee > the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). > > I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as godparents > other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so > barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan > Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks because > that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. > > I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man that > Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, > "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up > against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after > the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of > his known life. > > The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for > common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so > would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More > to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the > case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. > > Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an > impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the > hypothezied scion of a professional family. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > >> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have >> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >> officer >> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >> Prince >> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >> fact? >> >> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> *Individual Summary:* >> >> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> >> >> >> Sex: >> >> Male >> >> >> Father: >> >> Jan Derryckssen >> >> >> Mother: >> >> Gerriken Beecken >> >> >> >> >> >> *Individual Facts:* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birth: >> >> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 33 >> >> >> Death: >> >> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Military Service: >> >> officer under General Count von Nassau >> >> >> >> >> >> *Shared Facts:* >> >> *Magdalena Jans* >> >> >> >> >> >> Marriage: >> >> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 1692 >> >> >> Children: >> >> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Joris Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> *Notes:* >> >> >> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >> >> >> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >> >> >> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Pete: > > So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's > names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at > online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because these > lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain have > any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons at > the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want > and need to know. > > You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy > reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. Do > you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been > studying the VN family? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet aren't > > actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' > account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid > before sailing. > > I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a flier > on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid > deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an > empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for the > passage on the other end was logically something less than that. > > Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted > at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an > objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the > wedding took place at the end of the fourth. > > Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." > Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's what > most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" in > > Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". > > --pete > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 > ***************************************** > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One piece of info my Dad (Frederick Harold Van Orman III) told me is that his 5th great grandfather Issac van Arnhem (Aernam); bapt. 4 May 1704; Revolutionary soldier; 27 Jan 1777 was one of the original signers of the "Oath of Secrecy", for Committee of Correspondence. He also told me that his Van Orman side of the family arrived in the New World about 20 years after the Mayflower. He said that the Van Orman's married several direct Mayflower descendents which I have been able to track through Hatch, Paddock, Cornell and a few other lines in my pedigree. One other bit of family lore he passed on to me is that the Van Orman pedigree carries Viking and Norman blood. Not sure what that means actually. My brother took a Y DNA test confirming that we descend from what is believed to be the early NY VO line. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:34 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Pim: So good to hear from you again! I too am leaning to the theory that Jan Dircks parents are Dirk Jansz van Arnhem and Magdaleentjen Jannssen and that is why I added it to my tree to try to prove it. Do you have any thoughts about who Jan Dicksz from Bremen could have been? I am seeing several familiar names surrounding him. Looking forward to your input. I do remember my father telling me that our Van Orman family is from Arnhem, The Netherlands and he went to visit the city in 1966 with my Mom. He had been told quite a bit of family lore from his parents, grandparents, etc which he did tell a lot of it to me but I was too young to remember the fine details now. I so wish he had written it all down for us. He was very proud of his family heritage and over and over discussed the bravery of the many professional soldiers in the family. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:38 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Hi, "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) > 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward kids > every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to > weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another > pregnancy.) > > There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant death. > The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks and > Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she appears > at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other > than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name > Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite > often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. > > "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good > indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been pretty > scrupulous about baptising their offspring. > > My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a > nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and was, > in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, > independent of each other. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> John, >> >> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >> previously married) until you pointed it out. >> >> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >> 31, >> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >> LOL. >> Thanks again! >> >> Susan >> >> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje >> Jans >> - page 76 >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >> Juffr. Ver Brack >> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >> Jacomyntie du Wel >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >> Ariaentie >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet >> Lodovyckszen >> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >> - page 78 >> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >> Marie Dopzen >> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, >> El >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >> intact. >> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying >> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >> in >> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >> not >> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >> manifests by Dutch West Co. >> >> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >> were >> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >> that >> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >> to >> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >> apprentishship >> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with >> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >> she >> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >> J" >> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >> >> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >> >> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >> >>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>> other >>> staff. >>> >>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to >>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If >>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >> married >>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>> Belief: NDG >>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>> Groom: January Dircksz >>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>> Young Daughter bride: J >>> Previous partner groom: >>> Previous partner bride >>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>> would >>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>> his >>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>> the >>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>> flip-flopping >>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>> have >>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>> >>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>> >>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> have >>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>> have >>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>> during) >>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>> speculating over). >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>> work >>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>> children >>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> obviously >>> a >>>>> different person. >>>>> >>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>> wise >>>>> the >>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>> >>>>> My previous question: >>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>> Did >>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>> Teunis >>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>> >>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all over > the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated > it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where to > begin. Here are the two big ones. though: > > When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of > people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan Dircks > and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's > unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. > > I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in the > first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died they > themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and > doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee > the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). > > I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as godparents > other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so > barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan > Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks because > that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. > > I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man that > Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, > "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up > against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after > the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of > his known life. > > The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for > common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so > would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More > to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the > case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. > > Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an > impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the > hypothezied scion of a professional family. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > >> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have >> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >> officer >> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >> Prince >> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >> fact? >> >> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> *Individual Summary:* >> >> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> >> >> >> Sex: >> >> Male >> >> >> Father: >> >> Jan Derryckssen >> >> >> Mother: >> >> Gerriken Beecken >> >> >> >> >> >> *Individual Facts:* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birth: >> >> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 33 >> >> >> Death: >> >> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Military Service: >> >> officer under General Count von Nassau >> >> >> >> >> >> *Shared Facts:* >> >> *Magdalena Jans* >> >> >> >> >> >> Marriage: >> >> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 1692 >> >> >> Children: >> >> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Joris Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> *Notes:* >> >> >> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >> >> >> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >> >> >> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Pete: > > So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's > names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at > online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because these > lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain have > any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons at > the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want > and need to know. > > You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy > reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. Do > you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been > studying the VN family? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet aren't > > actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' > account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid > before sailing. > > I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a flier > on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid > deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an > empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for the > passage on the other end was logically something less than that. > > Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted > at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an > objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the > wedding took place at the end of the fourth. > > Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." > Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's what > most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" in > > Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". > > --pete > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 > ***************************************** > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. And is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and Dirckszen before settleing on Van Arnhem. Sorry, won't work. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pim van Arnhem" <wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > Hi, > > "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena > where > one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch > parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz > van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) > who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter > Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van > Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise > all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There > was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! > > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > > Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >> where >> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >> kids >> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >> pregnancy.) >> >> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >> death. >> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks >> and >> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >> appears >> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other >> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >> >> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good >> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >> pretty >> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >> >> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents >> a >> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >> was, >> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >> fact, >> independent of each other. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> John, >>> >>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>> not >>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>> >>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>> 31, >>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>> LOL. >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>> Barentje >>> Jans >>> - page 76 >>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>> Willemszen, >>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>> Ariaentie >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>> Agniet >>> Lodovyckszen >>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >>> - page 78 >>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>> Marie Dopzen >>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>> Verleth, >>> El >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>> intact. >>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>> paying >>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >>> in >>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>> not >>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>> but >>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>> >>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>> were >>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>> that >>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>> married >>> to >>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>> apprentishship >>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>> with >>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>> she >>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >>> J" >>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>> >>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>> >>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>> other >>>> staff. >>>> >>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait >>>> to >>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>> If >>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>> married >>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>> Belief: NDG >>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>> Previous partner groom: >>>> Previous partner bride >>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>> would >>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>> his >>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>>> the >>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>> flip-flopping >>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>>> have >>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>> >>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>> >>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>> have >>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>> have >>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>> during) >>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>> speculating over). >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>>> work >>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>> children >>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>> obviously >>>> a >>>>>> different person. >>>>>> >>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>> wise >>>>>> the >>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>> >>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>> our >>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>> children? >>>>>> Did >>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>>> Teunis >>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>> >>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>> the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >> over >> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >> promulgated >> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where >> to >> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >> >> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >> of >> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >> Dircks >> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's >> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >> >> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in >> the >> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >> they >> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and >> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >> guarantee >> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >> >> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >> godparents >> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >> because >> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >> >> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >> that >> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >> fact, >> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >> after >> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of >> his known life. >> >> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so >> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >> More >> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >> the >> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >> >> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> >> >>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>> have >>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>> the >>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>> officer >>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>> Prince >>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>> fact? >>> >>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> *Individual Summary:* >>> >>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sex: >>> >>> Male >>> >>> >>> Father: >>> >>> Jan Derryckssen >>> >>> >>> Mother: >>> >>> Gerriken Beecken >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Individual Facts:* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Birth: >>> >>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 33 >>> >>> >>> Death: >>> >>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Military Service: >>> >>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Shared Facts:* >>> >>> *Magdalena Jans* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Marriage: >>> >>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 1692 >>> >>> >>> Children: >>> >>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> *Notes:* >>> >>> >>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>> >>> >>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>> >>> >>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >> want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >> posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >> their >> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >> and >> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >> the >> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >> >> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >> probably >> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >> (largely >> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >> another >> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >> >> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >> the >> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >> >> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated >> on >> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >> when >> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >> >> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>> passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>> reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>> want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>> an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>> posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>> "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>> "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> body of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >