Here are other places besides google books to view some of Rikers books http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%28james%20riker%29 you can download the whole book from this site- if you decide to do this try one- sometimes I've found "search" won't work in a downloaded copy http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Search/Home?checkspelling=true&type=all&lookfor=james+riker&submit=Find&type=author&sethtftonly=true http://openlibrary.org/search/authors?q=james+riker and you can always go to the "find in a library" , type in your zip code and see if there are hardcopies near you. For example: "The Dutch grants, Harlem patents and tidal creeks : the law applicable to those subjects examined and stated ... with an appendix containing copies of ancient Dutch deeds and records, translated from the originals and authenticated by James Riker : and also, copies of the Harlem patents, and illustrative map, etc." they have at: University of Texas, Tarlton Law Library<http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/oclc/60712640?page=frame&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftallons.law.utexas.edu%2Fsearch%2Fo60712640%26checksum%3D6113cac7fe55e68867e12e39478d40bb&title=University+of+Texas%2C+Tarlton+Law+Library&linktype=opac&detail=TXQ%3AUniversity+of+Texas%2C+Tarlton+Law+Library%3AAcademic+Library> Jamail Center for Legal Research AUSTIN, TX 78705 United States- is that near you? HAPPY READING! Arlene PS I always take my camera with me so I don't have to pay for copies. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 6:19 PM, <vannorman-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > 2. Re: Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara'sparentsnames > (Susan Claggett) > 3. Re: Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara'sparentsnames > (jroguetech@gmail.com) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book > referenceinHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > (dragonshelver@yahoo.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:07:11 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <CD93B5D0C79C41D7B9F527E70D8E25C0@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hahaha! I actual live near Austin, TX now but was born in Indiana. Do we > have a list member that lives in the area that would go to the library to > research the will and any other items of interest? Could we ask the > library to look for the specific will for us by phone? Do they have a > research department? > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:55 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > As I recall, you live in Indiana... Your choices would be car, plane, > or, I would assume, train. For the first, MapQuest. For the latter, > Orbitz. Destination, Jamaica. Not the fun Jamaica, the one in New > York. > > Once there.... > Title: James Riker Collection, 1614-1859 > Control number: Control # R-11 > Open for research without restrictions. Manuscripts are only available > in the Long Island Division Monday through Friday 10am through 5pm. > > Apparently, you'll also need a library card. That'll cost you $50, and > two forms of ID. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > > Great! ?How can we view it? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:38 PM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division > > Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of > > Memoria. > > > > http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2E > > xml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ > > > > Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM, ?<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > >> I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > >> records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > >> could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > >> City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > >> wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > > 24, > >>> 1686. ?Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of > this > >>> timeframe and location? ?I have never searched for wills before and > > really > >>> don't know how to find them. > >>> > >>> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > >>> seems like it was a known fact. ?We also see the interaction of these > > same > >>> people in the church documents. > >>> > >>> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. ?It > fits > >>> together nicely IMO. > >>> > >>> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > >>> interesting and informative: > >>> 1. ? ? [PDF] > >>> > >>> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF < > http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > >>> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > >>> > >>> Susan > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > >>> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > >>> > >>> I've got a few minutes. > >>> > >>> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. ?Calling Jan > >>> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > > conclusion, > >>> one he simply jumped to. ?(The Dutch didn't have a word for > > brother-in-law, > >>> just for starters.) > >>> > >>> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > >>> these old books. ?First, they can be wrong. ?In this case the part > about > >>> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake > on > >>> Riker's part. ?That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > >>> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) ?remarried > and > >>> moved to Boston. ?I worked this out ?three or four years ago with help > > from > >>> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it > would > > be > >>> good for everyone to visit. > >>> > >>> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had > access > > to > >>> info no longer available. ?I can't find the will or any reference to it > >>> other than this one. ?Neither can researchers better than I. > ?Apparently > > it > >>> existed once upon a time but now it's gone. ?Dang! > >>> > >>> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > > families > >>> > >>> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. ?Whether > > this > >>> > >>> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > >>> determine,however. > >>> > >>> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to > Sarah > >>> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > > original > >>> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > >>> > >>> --pete > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > >>> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > >>> > >>> > >>>>I think I found a good reference. ?Of course it may have already been > >>>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. ?On page 242 Harlem > >>>> (City > >>>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > > stolen > >>>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. ?The accused is his > >>>> brother in law Jan Teunissen. ?There is lots of good info on the next > >>>> several pages especially 244. > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > >>>> > >>> > > > > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > >>>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Susan Van Orman Claggett > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>> > >>>> Yes. ?It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others > not > >>>> so > >>>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). ?Tryntie > Pieters > >>>> was > >>>> > >>>> his wife. > >>>> > >>>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of ?the Dutch > >>>> provinces > >>>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > > Catholic. > >>>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > > Papist." > >>>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > > and/or > >>>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > >>>> --------------. > >>>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. ?Jan > Dircks > >>>> and > >>>> > >>>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. ?In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth > Kil > >>>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. ?It was > lousy > >>>> land (although apparently good swamp) ?and they apparently went back > to > >>>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. > > ?That's > >>>> the last record of them I can find. > >>>> > >>>> --pete > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Is this the gossiping case? > >>>> > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > >>>> (1st paragraph) > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > > wrote: > >>>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > >>>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > > happened > >>>>> on > >>>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > >>>>> ----------- > >>>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > > trouble, > >>>>> again, for gossiping. > >>>>> > >>>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own > counsel. > >>>>> > >>>>> --pete > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't know. > >>>>> > >>>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > >>>>> > >>>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > >>>>> > >>>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > >>>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > >>>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > > the > >>>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > > this > >>>>>> is our Sara. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage > record > >>>>>> lists > >>>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time > belonged > > to > >>>>>> WIC. > >>>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in > trouble > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > > soldier, > >>>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > >>>>>>> Neither > >>>>>> in > >>>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating > leadership > >>>>>>> qualities. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > >>>>>> record > >>>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > >>>>>> occupation, > >>>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It > was > > a > >>>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as > way > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid > to > >>>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot > him. > >>>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > > all. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > >>>>>> possibly > >>>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' > War, > >>>>>> they > >>>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > > unlikely. > >>>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > >>>>>>> -------- > >>>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in > 1664. > >>>>>> Aside > >>>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > >>>>>> Sara, > >>>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > >>>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > >>>>>>> long > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > > Dircks > >>>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > >>>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The > >>>>>>> somewhat > >>>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > >>>>>>> sort > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > >>>>>>> brother > >>>>>> or > >>>>>>> some sort of cousin. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > >>>>>>> research > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan > >>>>>>> Dircks > >>>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --pete > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:13:35 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <0BB699C7C16144F2B902DD7328A25D83@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, Maria > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > > That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan > Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > John I was wondering about this entry. ?Thanks for bringing this to my > > attention. > > > > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > > > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > > parentsnames > > > > Interesting. No sources though > > > ( > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > > P-0936.html). > > Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > > Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:23:52 -0500 > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <AANLkTin=dLEib-c341ZEY7ymZUYnq62tJYmFhJhnnWNU@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Abraham and Sara had six children. I'm not sure how Sara Eckerson and > Jan Eckerson are related. I'm sure they are, just haven't gotten that > far. Abram/Abraham was bap. 9 Apr 1673, d. bef. May 1736. Sara was > bap. 4 Oct 1673, d. aft Jul 1737. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, > Maria > > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > > Sara'sparentsnames > > > > That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan > > Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett > > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >> John I was wondering about this entry. ?Thanks for bringing this to my > >> attention. > >> > >> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > >> > >> Susan > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > >> parentsnames > >> > >> Interesting. No sources though > >> > > ( > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > >> P-0936.html). > >> Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > >> Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:19:42 +0000 > From: dragonshelver@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book > referenceinHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > > <339017272-1286921982-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2079523965-@bda591.bisx.prod.on.blackberry > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > Look in the catalog of the lds family history library. Many wills are on > microfilm there > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Sender: vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:09:38 > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Reply-To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > 24, > > 1686. ?Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this > > timeframe and location? ?I have never searched for wills before and > really > > don't know how to find them. > > > > The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > > seems like it was a known fact. ?We also see the interaction of these > same > > people in the church documents. > > > > I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. ?It fits > > together nicely IMO. > > > > I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > > interesting and informative: > > 1. ? ? [PDF] > > > > THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > > THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > > > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > I've got a few minutes. > > > > Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. ?Calling Jan > > Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > conclusion, > > one he simply jumped to. ?(The Dutch didn't have a word for > brother-in-law, > > just for starters.) > > > > The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > > these old books. ?First, they can be wrong. ?In this case the part about > > Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on > > Riker's part. ?That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > > them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) ?remarried and > > moved to Boston. ?I worked this out ?three or four years ago with help > from > > the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would > be > > good for everyone to visit. > > > > However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access > to > > info no longer available. ?I can't find the will or any reference to it > > other than this one. ?Neither can researchers better than I. ?Apparently > it > > existed once upon a time but now it's gone. ?Dang! > > > > There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > families > > > > with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. ?Whether > this > > > > is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > > determine,however. > > > > Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah > > Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > original > > settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > > > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > > Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > > >>I think I found a good reference. ?Of course it may have already been > >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. ?On page 242 Harlem > >> (City > >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > stolen > >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. ?The accused is his > >> brother in law Jan Teunissen. ?There is lots of good info on the next > >> several pages especially 244. > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > >> > > > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Susan Van Orman Claggett > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >> > >> Yes. ?It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > >> so > >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). ?Tryntie Pieters > >> was > >> > >> his wife. > >> > >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of ?the Dutch > >> provinces > >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > Catholic. > >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > Papist." > >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > and/or > >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > >> --------------. > >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. ?Jan Dircks > >> and > >> > >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. ?In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. ?It was lousy > >> land (although apparently good swamp) ?and they apparently went back to > >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. > ?That's > >> the last record of them I can find. > >> > >> --pete > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >> > >> > >> Is this the gossiping case? > >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > >> (1st paragraph) > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > happened > >>> on > >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > >>> ----------- > >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > trouble, > >>> again, for gossiping. > >>> > >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > >>> > >>> --pete > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>> > >>> > >>> I don't know. > >>> > >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > >>> > >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? > >>> > >>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > >>> > >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > the > >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > this > >>>> is our Sara. > >>>> > >>>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >>>> > >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > >>>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. > >>>>> > >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record > >>>> lists > >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged > to > >>>> WIC. > >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > >>>>> > >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble > >>>>> for > >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > soldier, > >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > >>>>> Neither > >>>> in > >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership > >>>>> qualities. > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > >>>> record > >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > >>>> occupation, > >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was > a > >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way > >>>>> of > >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to > >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. > >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > all. > >>>>> > >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > >>>> possibly > >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, > >>>> they > >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > unlikely. > >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > >>>>> -------- > >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. > >>>> Aside > >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > >>>> Sara, > >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > >>>>> long > >>>> one > >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > >>>>> > >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > Dircks > >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The > >>>>> somewhat > >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > >>>>> sort > >>>> of > >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > >>>>> brother > >>>> or > >>>>> some sort of cousin. > >>>>> > >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > >>>>> research > >>>>> I > >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan > >>>>> Dircks > >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. > >>>>> > >>>>> --pete > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 158 > ***************************************** >

Thank you Arlene for these additional references. I just got a bunch of messages in on rootsweb and some are new to me and others repeated. I am not sure but it looks like the server had a glitch. I am wading through them now. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Arlene Reeves [mailto:arlenevreeves@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:37 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 158 Here are other places besides google books to view some of Rikers books http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%28james%20riker%29 you can download the whole book from this site- if you decide to do this try one- sometimes I've found "search" won't work in a downloaded copy http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Search/Home?checkspelling=true&type=all&lookfo r=james+riker&submit=Find&type=author&sethtftonly=true http://openlibrary.org/search/authors?q=james+riker and you can always go to the "find in a library" , type in your zip code and see if there are hardcopies near you. For example: "The Dutch grants, Harlem patents and tidal creeks : the law applicable to those subjects examined and stated ... with an appendix containing copies of ancient Dutch deeds and records, translated from the originals and authenticated by James Riker : and also, copies of the Harlem patents, and illustrative map, etc." they have at: University of Texas, Tarlton Law Library<http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/oclc/60712640?page=frame&url=http%3A%2F %2Ftallons.law.utexas.edu%2Fsearch%2Fo60712640%26checksum%3D6113cac7fe55e688 67e12e39478d40bb&title=University+of+Texas%2C+Tarlton+Law+Library&linktype=o pac&detail=TXQ%3AUniversity+of+Texas%2C+Tarlton+Law+Library%3AAcademic+Libra ry> Jamail Center for Legal Research AUSTIN, TX 78705 United States- is that near you? HAPPY READING! Arlene PS I always take my camera with me so I don't have to pay for copies. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 6:19 PM, <vannorman-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > 2. Re: Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara'sparentsnames > (Susan Claggett) > 3. Re: Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara'sparentsnames > (jroguetech@gmail.com) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book > referenceinHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > (dragonshelver@yahoo.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:07:11 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <CD93B5D0C79C41D7B9F527E70D8E25C0@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hahaha! I actual live near Austin, TX now but was born in Indiana. Do we > have a list member that lives in the area that would go to the library to > research the will and any other items of interest? Could we ask the > library to look for the specific will for us by phone? Do they have a > research department? > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:55 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > As I recall, you live in Indiana... Your choices would be car, plane, > or, I would assume, train. For the first, MapQuest. For the latter, > Orbitz. Destination, Jamaica. Not the fun Jamaica, the one in New > York. > > Once there.... > Title: James Riker Collection, 1614-1859 > Control number: Control # R-11 > Open for research without restrictions. Manuscripts are only available > in the Long Island Division Monday through Friday 10am through 5pm. > > Apparently, you'll also need a library card. That'll cost you $50, and > two forms of ID. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > > Great! ?How can we view it? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:38 PM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division > > Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of > > Memoria. > > > > http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2E > > xml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ > > > > Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM, ?<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > >> I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > >> records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > >> could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > >> City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > >> wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > > 24, > >>> 1686. ?Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of > this > >>> timeframe and location? ?I have never searched for wills before and > > really > >>> don't know how to find them. > >>> > >>> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > >>> seems like it was a known fact. ?We also see the interaction of these > > same > >>> people in the church documents. > >>> > >>> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. ?It > fits > >>> together nicely IMO. > >>> > >>> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > >>> interesting and informative: > >>> 1. ? ? [PDF] > >>> > >>> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF < > http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > >>> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > >>> > >>> Susan > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > >>> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > >>> > >>> I've got a few minutes. > >>> > >>> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. ?Calling Jan > >>> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > > conclusion, > >>> one he simply jumped to. ?(The Dutch didn't have a word for > > brother-in-law, > >>> just for starters.) > >>> > >>> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > >>> these old books. ?First, they can be wrong. ?In this case the part > about > >>> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake > on > >>> Riker's part. ?That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > >>> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) ?remarried > and > >>> moved to Boston. ?I worked this out ?three or four years ago with help > > from > >>> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it > would > > be > >>> good for everyone to visit. > >>> > >>> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had > access > > to > >>> info no longer available. ?I can't find the will or any reference to it > >>> other than this one. ?Neither can researchers better than I. > ?Apparently > > it > >>> existed once upon a time but now it's gone. ?Dang! > >>> > >>> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > > families > >>> > >>> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. ?Whether > > this > >>> > >>> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > >>> determine,however. > >>> > >>> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to > Sarah > >>> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > > original > >>> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > >>> > >>> --pete > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > >>> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > >>> > >>> > >>>>I think I found a good reference. ?Of course it may have already been > >>>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. ?On page 242 Harlem > >>>> (City > >>>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > > stolen > >>>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. ?The accused is his > >>>> brother in law Jan Teunissen. ?There is lots of good info on the next > >>>> several pages especially 244. > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > >>>> > >>> > > > > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > >>>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Susan Van Orman Claggett > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>> > >>>> Yes. ?It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others > not > >>>> so > >>>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). ?Tryntie > Pieters > >>>> was > >>>> > >>>> his wife. > >>>> > >>>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of ?the Dutch > >>>> provinces > >>>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > > Catholic. > >>>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > > Papist." > >>>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > > and/or > >>>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > >>>> --------------. > >>>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. ?Jan > Dircks > >>>> and > >>>> > >>>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. ?In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth > Kil > >>>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. ?It was > lousy > >>>> land (although apparently good swamp) ?and they apparently went back > to > >>>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. > > ?That's > >>>> the last record of them I can find. > >>>> > >>>> --pete > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Is this the gossiping case? > >>>> > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > >>>> (1st paragraph) > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > > wrote: > >>>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > >>>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > > happened > >>>>> on > >>>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > >>>>> ----------- > >>>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > > trouble, > >>>>> again, for gossiping. > >>>>> > >>>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own > counsel. > >>>>> > >>>>> --pete > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't know. > >>>>> > >>>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > >>>>> > >>>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > >>>>> > >>>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > >>>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > >>>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > > the > >>>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > > this > >>>>>> is our Sara. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage > record > >>>>>> lists > >>>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time > belonged > > to > >>>>>> WIC. > >>>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in > trouble > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > > soldier, > >>>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > >>>>>>> Neither > >>>>>> in > >>>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating > leadership > >>>>>>> qualities. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > >>>>>> record > >>>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > >>>>>> occupation, > >>>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It > was > > a > >>>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as > way > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid > to > >>>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot > him. > >>>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > > all. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > >>>>>> possibly > >>>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' > War, > >>>>>> they > >>>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > > unlikely. > >>>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > >>>>>>> -------- > >>>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in > 1664. > >>>>>> Aside > >>>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > >>>>>> Sara, > >>>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > >>>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > >>>>>>> long > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > > Dircks > >>>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > >>>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The > >>>>>>> somewhat > >>>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > >>>>>>> sort > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > >>>>>>> brother > >>>>>> or > >>>>>>> some sort of cousin. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > >>>>>>> research > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan > >>>>>>> Dircks > >>>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --pete > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:13:35 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <0BB699C7C16144F2B902DD7328A25D83@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, Maria > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > > That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan > Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > John I was wondering about this entry. ?Thanks for bringing this to my > > attention. > > > > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > > > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > > parentsnames > > > > Interesting. No sources though > > > ( > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > > P-0936.html). > > Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > > Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:23:52 -0500 > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <AANLkTin=dLEib-c341ZEY7ymZUYnq62tJYmFhJhnnWNU@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Abraham and Sara had six children. I'm not sure how Sara Eckerson and > Jan Eckerson are related. I'm sure they are, just haven't gotten that > far. Abram/Abraham was bap. 9 Apr 1673, d. bef. May 1736. Sara was > bap. 4 Oct 1673, d. aft Jul 1737. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, > Maria > > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > > Sara'sparentsnames > > > > That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan > > Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett > > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >> John I was wondering about this entry. ?Thanks for bringing this to my > >> attention. > >> > >> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > >> > >> Susan > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > >> parentsnames > >> > >> Interesting. No sources though > >> > > ( > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > >> P-0936.html). > >> Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > >> Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:19:42 +0000 > From: dragonshelver@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book > referenceinHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > > <339017272-1286921982-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2079523965-@b da591.bisx.prod.on.blackberry > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > Look in the catalog of the lds family history library. Many wills are on > microfilm there > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Sender: vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:09:38 > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Reply-To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > 24, > > 1686. ?Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this > > timeframe and location? ?I have never searched for wills before and > really > > don't know how to find them. > > > > The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > > seems like it was a known fact. ?We also see the interaction of these > same > > people in the church documents. > > > > I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. ?It fits > > together nicely IMO. > > > > I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > > interesting and informative: > > 1. ? ? [PDF] > > > > THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > > THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > > > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > I've got a few minutes. > > > > Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. ?Calling Jan > > Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > conclusion, > > one he simply jumped to. ?(The Dutch didn't have a word for > brother-in-law, > > just for starters.) > > > > The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > > these old books. ?First, they can be wrong. ?In this case the part about > > Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on > > Riker's part. ?That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > > them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) ?remarried and > > moved to Boston. ?I worked this out ?three or four years ago with help > from > > the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would > be > > good for everyone to visit. > > > > However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access > to > > info no longer available. ?I can't find the will or any reference to it > > other than this one. ?Neither can researchers better than I. ?Apparently > it > > existed once upon a time but now it's gone. ?Dang! > > > > There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > families > > > > with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. ?Whether > this > > > > is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > > determine,however. > > > > Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah > > Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > original > > settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > > > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > > Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > > >>I think I found a good reference. ?Of course it may have already been > >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. ?On page 242 Harlem > >> (City > >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > stolen > >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. ?The accused is his > >> brother in law Jan Teunissen. ?There is lots of good info on the next > >> several pages especially 244. > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > >> > > > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Susan Van Orman Claggett > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >> > >> Yes. ?It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > >> so > >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). ?Tryntie Pieters > >> was > >> > >> his wife. > >> > >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of ?the Dutch > >> provinces > >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > Catholic. > >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > Papist." > >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > and/or > >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > >> --------------. > >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. ?Jan Dircks > >> and > >> > >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. ?In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. ?It was lousy > >> land (although apparently good swamp) ?and they apparently went back to > >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. > ?That's > >> the last record of them I can find. > >> > >> --pete > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >> > >> > >> Is this the gossiping case? > >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > >> (1st paragraph) > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > happened > >>> on > >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > >>> ----------- > >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > trouble, > >>> again, for gossiping. > >>> > >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > >>> > >>> --pete > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>> > >>> > >>> I don't know. > >>> > >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > >>> > >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? > >>> > >>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > >>> > >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > the > >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > this > >>>> is our Sara. > >>>> > >>>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >>>> > >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > >>>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. > >>>>> > >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record > >>>> lists > >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged > to > >>>> WIC. > >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > >>>>> > >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble > >>>>> for > >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > soldier, > >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > >>>>> Neither > >>>> in > >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership > >>>>> qualities. > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > >>>> record > >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > >>>> occupation, > >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was > a > >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way > >>>>> of > >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to > >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. > >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > all. > >>>>> > >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > >>>> possibly > >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, > >>>> they > >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > unlikely. > >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > >>>>> -------- > >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. > >>>> Aside > >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > >>>> Sara, > >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > >>>>> long > >>>> one > >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > >>>>> > >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > Dircks > >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The > >>>>> somewhat > >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > >>>>> sort > >>>> of > >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > >>>>> brother > >>>> or > >>>>> some sort of cousin. > >>>>> > >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > >>>>> research > >>>>> I > >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan > >>>>> Dircks > >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. > >>>>> > >>>>> --pete > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 158 > ***************************************** > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message