"If conceived on arrival..." I posited that they met aboard, and didn't consumate until arrival. However, I would think that the first thing an unmarried woman with no family would do on arrival would be to find a husband. The alternative would be to be a cleaning servant, which amounted to the worst parts of marriage, and I would think would very often include other "services". Or being a cleaning "servant", i.e. euphemism for outright prostitute. "Or she could have been raped." This is pure speculation, but... I imagine this happened more than we'd like to think. A woman in a distant land filled with men, possibly no family and few, if any, friends. Where would an unemployed arrival do? Where would they go? They would probably wander around, wondering where they were going to go and what they were going to do. Stranger in a strange land, yada yada, wandering strange streets, in a city with a high male-to-female ratio...? Even after such a speculative event, a soldier would probably still be willing to marry her. If anything, it would explain why she married a soldier. But there's no way to know how often, let alone any reason to believe it occured with Sara. I'm leaning towards the "three months of desperately unconsummated love", rather than conceived onboard, although I'm less romantic. Stuck on a cramped, cold ship with unwashed, crude soldiers all around, dried unpalatable food, and not so much as a tv in sight for 300 years... Not my idea of a romantic get-away. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > "If conceived on arrival..." Old Jan Dircks must have been an awfully > smooth talker or Sara was a roundheel. Met, courted and impregnated > within, > let's say, a month of her arrival. I'd accept an 8-month baby but unless > Sara hopped off the boat and straight into bed with a guy she'd just met > you > have to posit something closer to a 7-month one. > > (Incidentally, I'm not working just off Dirkje's baptism--which I've > arbitrarily set as two weeks after her birth. Note Jan and Sara were > married in at the end of June. However the banns had to be posted for a > month previous to that. Assume Sarah waited for three missed periods to > "be > sure". From either recorded event we end up with a conception in mid- or > late-March.) > > "Or she could have been raped." So Jan met her and shortly married her > even > though she was carrying another man's child. That would make him more > saintly than the general run of the males, never mind the subset of > soldiers, a group not noted for their enlightened social views. > > The simplest explanation is Jan Dircks was on DeTrouw with Sara and somehow > they managed a fast fornication in the forecastle or something. > > If you prefer a more palatable alternative I'm also willing to posit three > months of desperately unconsummated love at sea followed instanter upon > landing by a gallop across the percales. That would eliminate the > privacy-aboard-ship problem and only require Dirkje to be born a little > premature, a not uncomon feature in the first pregnancy of a young white > woman, at least by modern statistics. > > Either way, though, Jan Dircks had to be aboard DeTrouw with Sara. All > other explanations "multiply entities unnecessarily", not to mention > implausibly. > > --------- > I just did a quick scan to see if anything new had turned up on the subject > of soldiers. I find reference to a letter from the WIC directors to > Stuyvesant indicating they sent him at least 40 of them in early 1664. > > --pete > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen > NewAmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 > > > >I disagree with Pete, in that I find it more likely she concieved on > > arrival. If conceived upon arrival, Dirkjz would have been premature > about > > 3, maybe 4 weeks. Personally, I think this is more likely than onboard > > (he > > points out the difficulites of enroute). Regardless, even if she > > conceived > > on arrival, I agree it's probable she met the father onboard. Or she > could > > have been raped. > > > > There is known to have been one soldier onboard De Trouw (1664), and > where > > there's one, there's more. (Norbardus Bodas, soldier from Antwerp.) > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> More reliable due to Lorrine's high standards: > >> > >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/mm_intro.shtml > >> > >> Here's DeTrouw 1664: > >> > >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/nnship34.shtml > >> > >> DeTrouw made the trip with some regularity. The last one before the > >> Dutch > >> surrender of New Amsterdam left Netherlands Jan. 19, 1664, arriving > Apr. > >> 17. 1664. > >> > >> That 1659 voyage with 108 passengers listed, however, provides some sort > >> of > >> measure of the actual capacity of De Trouw. There could have been > many > >> more aboard on the 1664 voyage than the 13 adults and 7 children known > >> from > >> the ship's books and notarial records. > >> > >> --pete > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:11 PM > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New > >> AmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 > >> > >> > >> > Pete are we talking about the same sailing of the De Trouw? This > >> > reference > >> > says it arrived in 1659 and Dirckje was baptized in 1664. > >> > > >> > Susan > >> > > >> > Amsterdam, Netherlands to New Netherland (New York) sailed 12 February > >> > 1659 > >> > arrived May 1659 > >> > Captain: Jan Jansen Bestevaer > >> > De Trouw (In The Faith) sailed from Amsterdam February 12, 1659 under > >> > Captain Jan Jansen Bestevaer arriving at New Amsterdam May, 1659. > >> > http://www.immigrantships.net/v10/1600v10/detrouw16590500.html > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1664 > >> > 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1669 > >> > Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria > >> Wouters > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1671 > >> > 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, > >> > Mayken > >> > Laurens > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1673 > >> > 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna > >> > Le > >> > Maistre > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1675 > >> > 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden ??? > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1677 > >> > 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, > >> > Tryntie > >> > Hercks > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1680 > >> > 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel > >> > Terneur, > >> > Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:25 PM > >> > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam > >> > Baptismsfrom1639-1730 > >> > > >> > Please look for my post a few months ago about Pym Van Arnhem's > >> > Netherland-based web page. > >> > > >> > Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) isn't any of the many other Jan Dircks's > during > >> > the > >> > period in New Amsterdam. In the first place most of them have their > >> > own > >> > documented histories, anyway. More important, though, look at the > date > >> of > >> > baptism of Jan Dircks' first child, daughter Dirkje. Then look at > the > >> > date > >> > > >> > De Trouw reached port. Unless you resort to unneccessarily > complicated > >> > explanations, Sara Theunis was at least a month pregnant when when she > >> > disembarked the ship which had been at sea for three months. Again, > >> > unless > >> > you resort to complicated ( indeed, wholly unlikely) explanations, Jan > >> > Dircks is the guy who made her that way so he was on the ship, too. > >> > > >> > De Trouw and Gekruyste Hart both left Amsterdam within a day of each > >> other > >> > at the wrong time of the year for the voyage. However, it was the > >> > right > >> > time of year for WIC to send about 200 soldiers to New Amsterdam to > >> > protect > >> > against an anticipated attack by the British. > >> > > >> > There's no record I can find that soldiers were aboard the two ships > >> > but > >> > the > >> > > >> > ships had to have been carrying something. There are indications the > >> New > >> > Amsterdam garrison was considerably larger after the ships had > arrived. > >> > > >> > Stuyvesant in Jan 1664 had sent a letter to the company requesting 400 > >> > reinforcements but he was at the end of the news chain and the WIC > >> > directors were at the front end. They could read the tea leaves as > >> > well > >> > as > >> > he could and long before he even got a squint at them in any case. > >> > > >> > Don't ask me how Jan Dircks and Sara managed to do it on a little ship > >> > packed with a company of soldiers in the middle of the Atlantic in > >> Winter. > >> > "Love laughs at locks," and a lot of other impediments if I recall the > >> > days > >> > of my youth correctly. (There's a remote chance the ships might have > >> > dropped reinforcements at Guyana or the Antilles before swinging north > >> > to > >> > New Amsterdam; I haven't been able to figure out an average length of > >> time > >> > for a winter crossing because it's not clear if there ever were any > >> > others.) > >> > > >> > There should be WIC and notarial records on all this. However they're > >> > going > >> > > >> > to be in Dutch and they're going to be in the Netherlands. Assuming > >> > they > >> > survived 350 years of fires, floods, bugs, rats and God knows what > else > >> in > >> > the first place. > >> > > >> > I'd really love to know who in New Amsterdam paid Sara's passage on > >> > DeTrouw > >> > (the only reason we know about it at all is that it wasn't paid at the > >> > Amsterdam end) but I've never been able to find that. > >> > > >> > --pete > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:36 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam > Baptisms > >> > from1639-1730 > >> > > >> > > >> >> This is interesting. Note the name Tryntie again below. Jan > Dircksen > >> >> van > >> >> Bremen's wife was Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen). Does anyone > >> >> think > >> >> we may be looking at the same person in Jan Dircksen van Bremen and > >> >> our > >> >> Jan > >> >> Dirckszen who was married to Sara Theunis? Was she his second wife? > >> >> > >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie > Grevenraedt > >> >> > >> >> I don't think I have ever visited this page before of early baptismal > >> >> records. Maybe I have? The all start to blend together. Lots of > Jan > >> >> Dirckszen hits at the below link. > >> >> > >> >> Susan > >> >> > >> >> http://longislandgenealogy.com/baptisms/baps.html > >> >> > >> >> New Amsterdam Baptisms from 1639-1730 > >> >> These are complete to the end of 1730 as per Vol II of the > >> >> Collections of the New York Genealogical and Biographical Society, > >> 1901'. > >> >> Originally appearing on the site of Robert L. Billard > >> >> You can visit his site at > >> >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~rbillard/index.htm > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] > >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:18 PM > >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Immigrants to New Netherlands 1623-64 > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > http://www.family-crests.com/family-crest-coat-of-arms/surnames-7-7/immigran > >> >> ts-to-new-netherlands-1623.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Scandinavian Immigrants in New York > >> >> 1630-1674 > >> >> > >> >> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nycoloni/evjen/407evj.html > >> >> > >> >> Interesting description of Jan Dircksen from Bremen at above link > >> >> midway > >> >> down the page. His wife's name was Tryntie Anders. Just below Jan > >> >> Dircksen > >> >> is a Lucas Dircksen from Berg German married to Annetje Cornelis. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Jan Van Bremen Dircksen's Details > >> >> > >> >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Birthdate: > >> >> > >> >> 1620 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Birthplace: > >> >> > >> >> Bremen, Germany > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Death: > >> >> > >> >> Died September 15, 1668 in Albany, New York > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Occupation: > >> >> > >> >> IMMIGRATION: 1638 From Texel to New Amsterdam (New York City)HET > WAPEN > >> >> VAN > >> >> NOORWEGEN ([THE SHIP] Arms of Norway)Sailed from the Texel about 12 > >> >> May > >> >> 1638, arrived New Amsterdam before 4 August1638 [as per the account > >> >> submitted by Cornelis Melyn against Kili > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Added by: > >> >> > >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> > >> >> Carrigan on January 27, 2008 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Managed by: > >> >> > >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> > >> >> Peter > >> >> Carrigan > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Last Updated: > >> >> > >> >> October 26, 2008 > >> >> > >> >> Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen)'s Family > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Immediate Family: > >> >> > >> >> Daughter of ? Andriesen > >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425191680040209> and ? > >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425205520040215> > Andriesen > >> >> Wife of Jan < > >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705> > >> >> Dircksen > >> >> Mother of Sara > >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/Sara-Gardenier/5039346657760037507> > >> >> Gardenier > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] > >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:57 AM > >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Has anyone come across this before? Could this be anything? Jan > >> >> Dircksen > >> >> > >> >> van Bremen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > http://www.archive.org/stream/16301897briefhis00rose/16301897briefhis00rose_ > >> >> > >> >> djvu.txt > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Preserved among the Fort Orange Records of date 1660, May > >> >> > >> >> 27, is the "petition of Jan Dircksen van Bremen, Albert James von > >> >> > >> >> Volekenburgh, et al., praying that Dutch as well as Indians brokers > >> >> > >> >> be employed to trade with the Indians," and among the names ap- > >> >> > >> >> pended is " Henderick Roseboom." The other party were for pro- > >> >> > >> >> hibiting all Europeans, " Christians," from treading the forest > paths, > >> >> > >> >> thus excluding civilization. The first date after this is Sept. 13, > >> >> > >> >> 1662, when he purchased a house and lot "in the village of Bever- > >> >> > >> >> wyck, on the hill," and from this time on his name is found in num- > >> >> > >> >> erous authentic documents in the annals of Albany. The property > >> >> > >> >> mentioned was of historical interest, having been patented to Pieter > >> >> > >> >> Bronck. "As it stands with all that is fast by earth and nailed, > >> >> > >> >> and a? great as the patent thereof mentions," it was conveyed by > >> >> > >> >> Reyndert Pieterse (Bronck?) and Jacob Herick (Gerick), "for the > >> >> > >> >> sum of 550 guilders, payable in good merchantable beavers, at eight > >> >> > >> >> guilders apiece, in two installments, in July '63 and '64," the two > >> >> > >> >> "sellers" setting their "marks," but Rooseboom writing hi^ name > >> >> > >> >> with his own hand. November 16, of that year, he is surety with > >> >> > >> >> J. J. Schermerhooren for Jurriaen Janssen in the purchase of a house > >> >> > >> >> from the estate of Andries Herbertsen, for the benefit of the > >> >> > >> >> widow. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> The exact situations of the ancient properties in Albany have > >> >> > >> >> been carefully ascertained and mapped, so that we can fix the pre- > >> >> > >> >> cise spot where this ancestor lived. It lay on the east side of > Norlli > >> >> > >> >> Pearl street, northward of Maiden Lane. The palisades constitu- > >> >> > >> >> ting the northerly fortifications of the settlement passed through > the > >> >> > >> >> middle of the land-plat, and the name of " Roseboom's gate" was > >> >> > >> >> o-iven to the exit which existed at that point, the "Burghers' block- > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Interesting blog on womens' rights in New Netherlands: http://confrontaal.org/wordpress/?p=3775 On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:26 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > "If conceived on arrival..." I posited that they met aboard, and didn't > consumate until arrival. However, I would think that the first thing an > unmarried woman with no family would do on arrival would be to find a > husband. The alternative would be to be a cleaning servant, which amounted > to the worst parts of marriage, and I would think would very often include > other "services". Or being a cleaning "servant", i.e. euphemism for > outright prostitute. > > "Or she could have been raped." This is pure speculation, but... I imagine > this happened more than we'd like to think. A woman in a distant land filled > with men, possibly no family and few, if any, friends. Where would an > unemployed arrival do? Where would they go? They would probably wander > around, wondering where they were going to go and what they were going to > do. Stranger in a strange land, yada yada, wandering strange streets, in a > city with a high male-to-female ratio...? Even after such a speculative > event, a soldier would probably still be willing to marry her. If anything, > it would explain why she married a soldier. But there's no way to know how > often, let alone any reason to believe it occured with Sara. > > I'm leaning towards the "three months of desperately unconsummated love", > rather than conceived onboard, although I'm less romantic. Stuck on a > cramped, cold ship with unwashed, crude soldiers all around, dried > unpalatable food, and not so much as a tv in sight for 300 years... Not my > idea of a romantic get-away. > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> "If conceived on arrival..." Old Jan Dircks must have been an awfully >> smooth talker or Sara was a roundheel. Met, courted and impregnated >> within, >> let's say, a month of her arrival. I'd accept an 8-month baby but unless >> Sara hopped off the boat and straight into bed with a guy she'd just met >> you >> have to posit something closer to a 7-month one. >> >> (Incidentally, I'm not working just off Dirkje's baptism--which I've >> arbitrarily set as two weeks after her birth. Note Jan and Sara were >> married in at the end of June. However the banns had to be posted for a >> month previous to that. Assume Sarah waited for three missed periods to >> "be >> sure". From either recorded event we end up with a conception in mid- or >> late-March.) >> >> "Or she could have been raped." So Jan met her and shortly married her >> even >> though she was carrying another man's child. That would make him more >> saintly than the general run of the males, never mind the subset of >> soldiers, a group not noted for their enlightened social views. >> >> The simplest explanation is Jan Dircks was on DeTrouw with Sara and >> somehow >> they managed a fast fornication in the forecastle or something. >> >> If you prefer a more palatable alternative I'm also willing to posit three >> months of desperately unconsummated love at sea followed instanter upon >> landing by a gallop across the percales. That would eliminate the >> privacy-aboard-ship problem and only require Dirkje to be born a little >> premature, a not uncomon feature in the first pregnancy of a young white >> woman, at least by modern statistics. >> >> Either way, though, Jan Dircks had to be aboard DeTrouw with Sara. All >> other explanations "multiply entities unnecessarily", not to mention >> implausibly. >> >> --------- >> I just did a quick scan to see if anything new had turned up on the >> subject >> of soldiers. I find reference to a letter from the WIC directors to >> Stuyvesant indicating they sent him at least 40 of them in early 1664. >> >> --pete >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 6:02 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen >> NewAmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 >> >> >> >I disagree with Pete, in that I find it more likely she concieved on >> > arrival. If conceived upon arrival, Dirkjz would have been premature >> > about >> > 3, maybe 4 weeks. Personally, I think this is more likely than onboard >> > (he >> > points out the difficulites of enroute). Regardless, even if she >> > conceived >> > on arrival, I agree it's probable she met the father onboard. Or she >> > could >> > have been raped. >> > >> > There is known to have been one soldier onboard De Trouw (1664), and >> > where >> > there's one, there's more. (Norbardus Bodas, soldier from Antwerp.) >> > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> More reliable due to Lorrine's high standards: >> >> >> >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/mm_intro.shtml >> >> >> >> Here's DeTrouw 1664: >> >> >> >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/nnship34.shtml >> >> >> >> DeTrouw made the trip with some regularity. The last one before the >> >> Dutch >> >> surrender of New Amsterdam left Netherlands Jan. 19, 1664, arriving >> >> Apr. >> >> 17. 1664. >> >> >> >> That 1659 voyage with 108 passengers listed, however, provides some >> >> sort >> >> of >> >> measure of the actual capacity of De Trouw. There could have been >> >> many >> >> more aboard on the 1664 voyage than the 13 adults and 7 children known >> >> from >> >> the ship's books and notarial records. >> >> >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:11 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New >> >> AmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 >> >> >> >> >> >> > Pete are we talking about the same sailing of the De Trouw? This >> >> > reference >> >> > says it arrived in 1659 and Dirckje was baptized in 1664. >> >> > >> >> > Susan >> >> > >> >> > Amsterdam, Netherlands to New Netherland (New York) sailed 12 >> >> > February >> >> > 1659 >> >> > arrived May 1659 >> >> > Captain: Jan Jansen Bestevaer >> >> > De Trouw (In The Faith) sailed from Amsterdam February 12, 1659 under >> >> > Captain Jan Jansen Bestevaer arriving at New Amsterdam May, 1659. >> >> > http://www.immigrantships.net/v10/1600v10/detrouw16590500.html >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1664 >> >> > 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1669 >> >> > Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >> >> Wouters >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1671 >> >> > 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, >> >> > Mayken >> >> > Laurens >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1673 >> >> > 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna >> >> > Le >> >> > Maistre >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1675 >> >> > 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden ??? >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1677 >> >> > 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> >> > Tryntie >> >> > Hercks >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1680 >> >> > 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel >> >> > Terneur, >> >> > Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:25 PM >> >> > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam >> >> > Baptismsfrom1639-1730 >> >> > >> >> > Please look for my post a few months ago about Pym Van Arnhem's >> >> > Netherland-based web page. >> >> > >> >> > Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) isn't any of the many other Jan Dircks's >> >> > during >> >> > the >> >> > period in New Amsterdam. In the first place most of them have their >> >> > own >> >> > documented histories, anyway. More important, though, look at the >> >> > date >> >> of >> >> > baptism of Jan Dircks' first child, daughter Dirkje. Then look at >> >> > the >> >> > date >> >> > >> >> > De Trouw reached port. Unless you resort to unneccessarily >> >> > complicated >> >> > explanations, Sara Theunis was at least a month pregnant when when >> >> > she >> >> > disembarked the ship which had been at sea for three months. Again, >> >> > unless >> >> > you resort to complicated ( indeed, wholly unlikely) explanations, >> >> > Jan >> >> > Dircks is the guy who made her that way so he was on the ship, too. >> >> > >> >> > De Trouw and Gekruyste Hart both left Amsterdam within a day of each >> >> other >> >> > at the wrong time of the year for the voyage. However, it was the >> >> > right >> >> > time of year for WIC to send about 200 soldiers to New Amsterdam to >> >> > protect >> >> > against an anticipated attack by the British. >> >> > >> >> > There's no record I can find that soldiers were aboard the two ships >> >> > but >> >> > the >> >> > >> >> > ships had to have been carrying something. There are indications >> >> > the >> >> New >> >> > Amsterdam garrison was considerably larger after the ships had >> >> > arrived. >> >> > >> >> > Stuyvesant in Jan 1664 had sent a letter to the company requesting >> >> > 400 >> >> > reinforcements but he was at the end of the news chain and the WIC >> >> > directors were at the front end. They could read the tea leaves as >> >> > well >> >> > as >> >> > he could and long before he even got a squint at them in any case. >> >> > >> >> > Don't ask me how Jan Dircks and Sara managed to do it on a little >> >> > ship >> >> > packed with a company of soldiers in the middle of the Atlantic in >> >> Winter. >> >> > "Love laughs at locks," and a lot of other impediments if I recall >> >> > the >> >> > days >> >> > of my youth correctly. (There's a remote chance the ships might have >> >> > dropped reinforcements at Guyana or the Antilles before swinging >> >> > north >> >> > to >> >> > New Amsterdam; I haven't been able to figure out an average length of >> >> time >> >> > for a winter crossing because it's not clear if there ever were any >> >> > others.) >> >> > >> >> > There should be WIC and notarial records on all this. However >> >> > they're >> >> > going >> >> > >> >> > to be in Dutch and they're going to be in the Netherlands. Assuming >> >> > they >> >> > survived 350 years of fires, floods, bugs, rats and God knows what >> >> > else >> >> in >> >> > the first place. >> >> > >> >> > I'd really love to know who in New Amsterdam paid Sara's passage on >> >> > DeTrouw >> >> > (the only reason we know about it at all is that it wasn't paid at >> >> > the >> >> > Amsterdam end) but I've never been able to find that. >> >> > >> >> > --pete >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:36 PM >> >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam >> >> > Baptisms >> >> > from1639-1730 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> This is interesting. Note the name Tryntie again below. Jan >> >> >> Dircksen >> >> >> van >> >> >> Bremen's wife was Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen). Does >> >> >> anyone >> >> >> think >> >> >> we may be looking at the same person in Jan Dircksen van Bremen and >> >> >> our >> >> >> Jan >> >> >> Dirckszen who was married to Sara Theunis? Was she his second wife? >> >> >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie >> >> >> Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't think I have ever visited this page before of early >> >> >> baptismal >> >> >> records. Maybe I have? The all start to blend together. Lots of >> >> >> Jan >> >> >> Dirckszen hits at the below link. >> >> >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> >> >> >> >> http://longislandgenealogy.com/baptisms/baps.html >> >> >> >> >> >> New Amsterdam Baptisms from 1639-1730 >> >> >> These are complete to the end of 1730 as per Vol II of the >> >> >> Collections of the New York Genealogical and Biographical Society, >> >> 1901'. >> >> >> Originally appearing on the site of Robert L. Billard >> >> >> You can visit his site at >> >> >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~rbillard/index.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:18 PM >> >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Immigrants to New Netherlands 1623-64 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> http://www.family-crests.com/family-crest-coat-of-arms/surnames-7-7/immigran >> >> >> ts-to-new-netherlands-1623.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Scandinavian Immigrants in New York >> >> >> 1630-1674 >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nycoloni/evjen/407evj.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Interesting description of Jan Dircksen from Bremen at above link >> >> >> midway >> >> >> down the page. His wife's name was Tryntie Anders. Just below Jan >> >> >> Dircksen >> >> >> is a Lucas Dircksen from Berg German married to Annetje Cornelis. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jan Van Bremen Dircksen's Details >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birthdate: >> >> >> >> >> >> 1620 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birthplace: >> >> >> >> >> >> Bremen, Germany >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Death: >> >> >> >> >> >> Died September 15, 1668 in Albany, New York >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Occupation: >> >> >> >> >> >> IMMIGRATION: 1638 From Texel to New Amsterdam (New York City)HET >> >> >> WAPEN >> >> >> VAN >> >> >> NOORWEGEN ([THE SHIP] Arms of Norway)Sailed from the Texel about 12 >> >> >> May >> >> >> 1638, arrived New Amsterdam before 4 August1638 [as per the account >> >> >> submitted by Cornelis Melyn against Kili >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Added by: >> >> >> >> >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> >> >> >> Carrigan on January 27, 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Managed by: >> >> >> >> >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> >> >> >> Peter >> >> >> Carrigan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Last Updated: >> >> >> >> >> >> October 26, 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen)'s Family >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Immediate Family: >> >> >> >> >> >> Daughter of ? Andriesen >> >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425191680040209> and ? >> >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425205520040215> >> >> >> Andriesen >> >> >> Wife of Jan < >> >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705> >> >> >> Dircksen >> >> >> Mother of Sara >> >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/Sara-Gardenier/5039346657760037507> >> >> >> Gardenier >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:57 AM >> >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Has anyone come across this before? Could this be anything? Jan >> >> >> Dircksen >> >> >> >> >> >> van Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> http://www.archive.org/stream/16301897briefhis00rose/16301897briefhis00rose_ >> >> >> >> >> >> djvu.txt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Preserved among the Fort Orange Records of date 1660, May >> >> >> >> >> >> 27, is the "petition of Jan Dircksen van Bremen, Albert James von >> >> >> >> >> >> Volekenburgh, et al., praying that Dutch as well as Indians brokers >> >> >> >> >> >> be employed to trade with the Indians," and among the names ap- >> >> >> >> >> >> pended is " Henderick Roseboom." The other party were for pro- >> >> >> >> >> >> hibiting all Europeans, " Christians," from treading the forest >> >> >> paths, >> >> >> >> >> >> thus excluding civilization. The first date after this is Sept. 13, >> >> >> >> >> >> 1662, when he purchased a house and lot "in the village of Bever- >> >> >> >> >> >> wyck, on the hill," and from this time on his name is found in num- >> >> >> >> >> >> erous authentic documents in the annals of Albany. The property >> >> >> >> >> >> mentioned was of historical interest, having been patented to Pieter >> >> >> >> >> >> Bronck. "As it stands with all that is fast by earth and nailed, >> >> >> >> >> >> and a? great as the patent thereof mentions," it was conveyed by >> >> >> >> >> >> Reyndert Pieterse (Bronck?) and Jacob Herick (Gerick), "for the >> >> >> >> >> >> sum of 550 guilders, payable in good merchantable beavers, at eight >> >> >> >> >> >> guilders apiece, in two installments, in July '63 and '64," the two >> >> >> >> >> >> "sellers" setting their "marks," but Rooseboom writing hi^ name >> >> >> >> >> >> with his own hand. November 16, of that year, he is surety with >> >> >> >> >> >> J. J. Schermerhooren for Jurriaen Janssen in the purchase of a house >> >> >> >> >> >> from the estate of Andries Herbertsen, for the benefit of the >> >> >> >> >> >> widow. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The exact situations of the ancient properties in Albany have >> >> >> >> >> >> been carefully ascertained and mapped, so that we can fix the pre- >> >> >> >> >> >> cise spot where this ancestor lived. It lay on the east side of >> >> >> Norlli >> >> >> >> >> >> Pearl street, northward of Maiden Lane. The palisades constitu- >> >> >> >> >> >> ting the northerly fortifications of the settlement passed through >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> >> middle of the land-plat, and the name of " Roseboom's gate" was >> >> >> >> >> >> o-iven to the exit which existed at that point, the "Burghers' >> >> >> block- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> >> the >> >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> >> the >> >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> >> the >> >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> > the >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> > the >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >
John: Thank you for posting this link about women's rights in New Netherland. I read it and I am absolutely amazed at the system they set up in the 1600's and very proud of my Dutch heritage. This is a must read IMO. Susan http://confrontaal.org/wordpress/?p=3775 -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:26 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van BremenNewAmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 Interesting blog on womens' rights in New Netherlands: http://confrontaal.org/wordpress/?p=3775