John I would love for you to email me anything you find pertinent and take the time to convert so I can save it to my computer and family tree as well. I don't know how to do it and have spent many hours trying but can't seem to understand it at all. Thanks so much for your kind offer. My email address is susan@claggett6.com Regards, Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:06 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals BTW, anyone who would like excerpts from any of these book (or any PDF/JPEGS), I have tools and knowledge to split, merge, and/or convert them. With my personal tree, if a book only has a few pages of interest, I extract those pages and merge them with the title page. Just let me know the source of the book (i.e. Google books or archive.org address) and desired pages. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:00 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > It appears to be wholely derivative, i.e. "brother-in-law" is probably > not based on any more information than what Pete has seen (and isn't > sourced in any case). The accounts of both Sara gossiping and the > missing blanket, though certainly more entertaining, and put into > context, contain nothing more than what's in the court records we > already seen. I haven't found an "original" source for the land > records (or the tax records), but presumably it too is based on the > same records that Pete knows of. Certainly a good resource; but not > sure it really adds new info, except to show the whole picture. > > Also, it actually has a current (2010) printing. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> John I saw that too.  I can't stop reading...but I am so tired!  Here are a >> few more pages to see and be sure to check out the index of names in the >> 620's page range.  Can't wait to see what our other VN family researcher >> buddies think of this Harlem book.  Do you think it was recently added to >> the web? >> >> Susan >> >> Page 329 >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> #v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen&f=false >> >> Page 248 >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> #v=onepage&q=Jan%20The%20Soldier&f=false >> >> Page 593  The Van Bremen family became Van Bramer >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen%20van%20Bremen&f=false >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:16 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> Page 223 gives a better account of Sara's gossiping, and page 294 >> describes the land that Pete mentioned having been leased. >> >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:40 AM,  <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Very interesting - all of it. The incident, the pertenance of >>> "brother-in-law" and the book itself. >>> >>> I wonder what the source of it was... Are the original (that is >>> translated and transcribed "original") records available? >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >> (City >>>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>>> several pages especially 244. >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>>> >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >> so >>>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >> was >>>> >>>> his wife. >>>> >>>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >> provinces >>>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the >> Papist." >>>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks >> and/or >>>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>>> --------------. >>>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >> and >>>> >>>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>>> the last record of them I can find. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> Is this the gossiping case? >>>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>>> (1st paragraph) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>>> on >>>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>>> ----------- >>>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in >> trouble, >>>>> again, for gossiping. >>>>> >>>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know. >>>>> >>>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>>> >>>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>>> >>>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if >> this >>>>>> is our Sara. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>>> >>>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>>> lists >>>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged >> to >>>>>> WIC. >>>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >> Neither >>>>>> in >>>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>>> qualities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>>> record >>>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>>> occupation, >>>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >> of >>>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>>> possibly >>>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>>> they >>>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems >> unlikely. >>>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>>> Aside >>>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>>> Sara, >>>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >> long >>>>>> one >>>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan >> Dircks >>>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >> sort >>>>>> of >>>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >> brother >>>>>> or >>>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >> research >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>>> Dircks >>>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --pete >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message