Many records stored in Arnhem were lost in 1944 during the battle of Arnhem. https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Destroyed_and_damaged_records_of_Gelderland I'm not sure if the early church records were lost or not. (poor Google translation) Arnhem (1860-1916) - 1862-1944 Census Arnhem lost Relationship stand intact, including the annexes. Shed Notarial archives intact Arnhem (Arnhem 1862-1944 Population Registry addresses, Civil Registration unimpaired, Also the supplements. Notarial Archive Storage Arnhem unimpaired). On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > I could not find his baptismal record on BHIC but Pim had mentioned he knows > of one and that the date was in Oct 13 1640. > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:57 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis > > If Jan Dirckszen was van N. Amsterd, then Van Arnhem must have been a > surname. Although contentious, this is unlikely, since Jan is referred > to as "Jan Dirckszen" and "Jan the soldier", but nonetheless, > presumably his father would have come from Arnhem. Is there any record > of a Dirck van Arnhem in New Amsterdam? Where is Jan's baptismal > record? > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM,  <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> Since the ship list only says 'Sara Teunis', I've wondered whether it >> was her too. As we've discussed earlier with Pete, reasons for >> believing it's her are the timing of arrival and their marriage, one >> of the witnesses for Dirkje was also onboard, and there is no record >> of a Sara van Rotterdam  (or Jan van Arhem/Jan the soldier) prior to >> 1664. Presumably, other Sara Theunis' have been ruled out, but I >> haven't checked. >> >> Our Sara certainly would not have gone to Europe and come back, since >> she was presumably poor - she married a soldier, and they as a couple >> were poor later. It was also very unusual for people to do that, >> although I think it did happen on occasion, but every reference I've >> personally seen where it was a possibility were in wills, where the >> location of person is referred to as moved or gone "east", and implied >> it unknown whether they were alive or not. Not only was it expensive, >> the trip was long and hazardous... they didn't go home for Christmas. >> I've never seen records of returning vessels; presumably if they >> exist, they would be in Europe. >> >> If the "other" Sara and Jan moved, there are a limited number of >> probable places for them to have moved to. It's certainly possible >> they died close to each other, but then Dirkje would have been an >> orphan. She does not appear in the orphanage records. If Jan died, >> Sara would appear later as "widow". If Sara died, Jan should appear as >> having being married before. >> >> By swapping our Sara witht the Sara born in New Amsterdam, you'll >> actually need to find another Sara Theunis: >> 1680 07 Apr; Arent Fredrickszen [Blom], jm van N. Yorke; Sara Theunis >> Coevers, jd van N. Breuckelen, beyde woonende tot N. Yorke >> By precluding this from being the Sara born in 1653, you'll need to >> find who this is, since this is a more likely candidate. >> >> And where is the marriage record for our Sara and Jan, now being "van >> N. Amsterd", or at least "beyde wonende alhier"? >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> >>> That may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trouw or she could have >>> gone to visit her homeland with relatives and was returning. We will > never >>> know for sure.  Are there records of passengers sailing for New Amsterdam > to >>> Amsterdam?  I'm new to the early records search since I have not been >>> focusing on this part of my family tree until the past few weeks.  I have >>> really been enjoying the stories on Google books and other sites.  It > puts >>> it all together much better for me. >>> >>> Dirkje's Sara and Jan could have moved away or died like you said.  I > have >>> not seen death records from the early times like they have on BHIC. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:22 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>> >>> Most people didn't get married until 17 or 18. 16 was pretty uncommon, >>> and 15 almost unheard of. >>> >>> What I meant about the kids of the other Sara and Jan is that, since >>> the records don't show other children by them, either one of them died >>> or they moved. If one died, it should be in the records, especially if >>> Jan died. If they moved, they should show up in records of Albany, or >>> wherever they may have moved to. >>> >>> "Getting it right' would be solving problem(s). What is not "right" >>> with Sara being on the De Trouw? >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> John I believe you misunderstood.  I do believe the other children are > all >>>> children of our Jan and Sara, just not Dirkje. However the one that > lists >>>> Sara as Sara Thomas (Marie) makes me wonder a little bit.   Sixteen was >>>> quite a common age to get married and have children during that time >>> period. >>>> >>>> >>>> It may not solve any problems but it just might get it right.  The > records >>>> are fitting together nicely and our Sara and Jan are fitting right in > with >>>> the first settlers families. >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:37 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>>> >>>> Interesting theory. >>>> >>>> Off hand, I can think of a few problems... Since you propose (reading >>>> between the lines) that Jan and Sara of the marriage record had no >>>> children other than Dirkje, either Jan or Sara died. There should be a >>>> widower Jan somewhere (there clearly is no Sara, widow of Jan >>>> Dirkszen). Or some of the children (including Jan Janse) could be the >>>> "other" Jan and Sara's (which would be back to square one), and would >>>> raise the question of why no children of the two pairs of Sara & Jan >>>> overlap. Basically, you are creating two new people that need to be >>>> accounted for. Where are they? >>>> >>>> Also, the court case with Jan being accused of stealing boots strongly >>>> implies Jan "van Arnhem" is a soldier, creating a link between "Jan >>>> van Arnhem" and "Jan the soldier". >>>> >>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this theory doesn't actually >>>> solve any problems, except the early birth of Dirkje, which really >>>> isn't a problem (as Pete pointed out, premature births weren't >>>> uncommon, assuming she didn't concieve enroute). In turn, you >>>> introduce a number of other problems. Sara's propossed age of 16 at >>>> the birth of Magdalena (abt 15y 6m at conception) would itself be a >>>> larger problem that Dirkje's birth date. >>>> >>>> It's certainly is worthwhile research - even if incorrect, you may >>>> unearth a link between Jan T. and Sara. I look forward to hearing more >>>> about the theory. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I am working on proven that now John but it is going to take some time > to >>>>> sort it all out.  I went out and collected a lot of information and I > am >>>>> adding it to my tree now.  We know that we have been dealing with more >>>> than >>>>> one Jan Dircksen and Sara Theunis.  I think our Sara Theunis and Jan >>>>> Dirckzen were born in New Amsterdam.  I think Sara's birth record is >>> below >>>>> with her either being born or baptized as an older child in 1653.  I > also >>>>> believe it is likely that our Jan Dirckszen was born in New Amsterdam > as >>>>> well. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1653 20 Apr; Theunis Janszen; Sara; David de Potter and his wife >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think Dirckje may belong to another Jan Dirckszen and Sara >>>> Theunis/Thomas. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also think our Sara Theunis my have been from a Catholic family in > The >>>>> Netherlands like Pete had mentioned and that they had some French >>>> ancestry. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trowe in 1664 which > would >>>>> solve the early baby dilemma. Magdelena should be the first born/named >>>>> female and the sponsors fit perfectly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Below are the Baptismal records for the children that we have believed >>> are >>>>> of our Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, >>> Maria >>>>> Wouters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan > Laurenszen >>>>> Duyts, Mayken Laurens >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, >>>> Susanna >>>>> Le Maistre >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David > Hendrickszen, >>>>> Tryntie Hercks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>>>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>>>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am having trouble getting this message thru to Rootsweb.  Sorry if it >>>>> duplicates! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:00 AM >>>>> >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A lot of data... Could you peice it together for us? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The critical question being what links Sara and Jan Theunissen, or Sara >>> to >>>>> Amsterdam? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> James Riker's comment is certainly intriguing, but it's unsourced. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >