I never completely sorted it out, either. It doesn't really matter. What's important are the people involved. They are "leads" to other potentially more important information. Unfortunately, in this instance, the leads don't go anywhere that I could find. Two things can be concluded, though. Sarah was in Harlem in 1665. She seems to have acted kind of stupidly. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 6:26 AM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > Am I missing something on Sara's case regarding the stolen beaver...? > Sara is arrested (I'm not clear on why), and in the next session, > Grietje demands she be arrested. > > What I've found so far: > Grietje sues Lsybet Ackermans, who can't appear. > > Next session, Lsybet appears; Grietje accuses Lsybet of accusing her > of stealing a beaver. > > Lysbet denies accusing her. Grietje says Mary Pia told her Lsybet has > said so. Mary admits it, but denies hearing it from Lysbet. > > Next session, Mary says she heard it from Sara Theunis. Sara says she > heard it from Jesayntje Verhage. > > Several sessions later, Sara has been arrested. Sara repeats Jesayntje > told he. Jesayntje denies it. (Words are exchanged.) > > Next session, Grietje demands Sara be arrested. > > Next session, Sheriff states Josyn Verhegen told Sara that Grietje > took it. Grietje ordered to pay court fees, and case is dismissed. > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> Is this the gossiping case? >>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>> (1st paragraph) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident >>>> happened >>>> on >>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>> ----------- >>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in >>>> trouble, >>>> again, for gossiping. >>>> >>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>> >>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>> >>>> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>> >>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling >>>>> the >>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if >>>>> this >>>>> is our Sara. >>>>> >>>>> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>> >>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>> lists >>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged >>>>>> to >>>>> WIC. >>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>> for >>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another >>>>>> soldier, >>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>> Neither >>>>> in >>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>> qualities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>> record >>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>> occupation, >>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was >>>>>> a >>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>> of >>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at >>>>>> all. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>> possibly >>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>> they >>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems >>>>>> unlikely. >>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>> Aside >>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>> Sara, >>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>> long >>>>> one >>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>> >>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>> somewhat >>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>> brother >>>>> or >>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>> research >>>>>> I >>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >