Mind boggling to me but very interesting. Why do you think Jan Dirksz came to New Amsterdam? Did he come as a paid soldier? Thanks Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:48 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource As a side note to my previous message, countries were also defined to some extent as land owned by the king or royal family, or who owed them fielty. However, the ruling family could inherit lands outside their contigious bounderies, similiar to King George II inheriting the whole of England. This was also true of the Netherlands. The Hapsbergs had several large holdings outside their contiguous bounderies. Unifying disperate holdings by various monarchies played heavily in the Eighty Years' War. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:33 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > John Rogers (Rogers -> Harriet Estelle VO -> Sardine Stone -> Abraham -> > Abraham -> Lucas -> Isaac Jansz etc.) I'm in the US. > > I don't believe they are Scandinavian (that is Holland, Finland, Norway). > They are almost certainly "from" the Netherlands, and there's no reason I > know of that to believe they were born elsewhere. > > Since it's on topic of modern last names, don't forget that our > understanding of countries is also a modern construct. Belguim and the > Netherlands have not only seen upheaval in modern times, with map lines > redrawn after World War I and World War II, but the Netherlands was > not unified until 1540 under the Hapsburgs. However, being a small country, > there were constant struggles against Belgium, Prussia, and even Spain. > During the Eighty Year' War (1568-1648), they were split in two. Since this > is in the time-frame of Jan Dirksz, in terms of political bounderies, it > would be necessary to specify north or south Netherlands. Going backwards in > time, they were comprised of several "countries", and before that a > multitude city-states, confederacies, and fiefdoms in the middle ages. > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Susan Claggett < > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >> >> jroguetech@gmail.com what is your name? You have been sharing lots of >> great >> info with us but I don't know who you are by name. Are you in the US or >> in >> Holland? Thanks for your contributions! >> >> Susan >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:00 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Last names weren't formally adopted (in New Amsterdam) until 1687, and >> weren't in common use for much longer, even into the 1800's. >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/pat.shtml >> >> Most records show Jan Dirksz as Jan Dirckszen >> http://www.altlaw.com/edball/dutchbap.htm >> (baptism date, father, mother, child, witness, witness) >> Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria Wouters >> 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, Mayken >> Laurens >> 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna Le >> Maistre >> 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> Tryntie >> Hercks >> 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel >> Terneur, >> Hester de La >> Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> (?) 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden (I have >> Marie listed as a child, but unsourced beyond this record.) >> [This particuliar site is not easily sourced, since it's one long list; >> there's a several sites with New Amsterdam baptisms and marriages. If >> anyone >> needs this info with years, I can provide urls.] >> >> Among others, also listed are Jan Dirckszen Straetman or >> Straetmaecker (Street maker), Jan Dirckszen de Meyer/Mayer, Jan Dircxen op >> Hoboken, Jan Dirckszen van Bremen, and Jan Dirckszen van Amsterdam. There >> are also at least two, possibly three Sara Theunis'. >> >> Here's his marriage record, as being "van Arnhem". In addition to what >> Pete >> says, since he was a soldier, it's that much less reliable as a birth >> place. >> (I have a soldier of the Dutch West India Co., but I have no source.) Sara >> Theunis is listed as from Rotterdam. Possibly more reliable, but Rotterdam >> being a port city, it may have been more convient using her >> (possible) departure place than her actual home. Lot's of times, I've >> seem numerous immigrant ancester of mine using "New York" or "New Jersey" >> in >> census records, rather than actual original country of origin. Note that >> the >> patronym system also applies to Sara - "Sara Theuniszen", or "daughter of >> Theunis". >> >> Soort bron: Trouwboek >> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >> Gezindte: NDG >> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >> Jongedochter bruid: J >> Vorige partner bruidegom: >> Vorige partner bruid: >> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >> >> Translation: >> Source Type: Wedding Book >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >> Belief: NDG >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >> Groom: January Dircksz >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >> Young Daughter bride: J >> Previous partner groom: >> Previous partner bride >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >> [ >> >> http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRKQ2HdQx1CjKpnEFMD >> hX&xtr=21967397<http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRK Q2HdQx1CjKpnEFMDhX&xtr=21967397> >> ] >> >> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > May I point out again that "Van Arnhem", at least as it applies to the >> > records of Jan Dircks Van Arnhem who married Sarah Theunis, is clearly a >> > descriptor, not a surname. It means he was "from" Arnhem; perhaps born >> > there, perhaps raised there, perhaps lived there for a while before he >> came >> > to New Amsterdam. >> > >> > Half a dozen bits collectively suggest to me he probably wasn't born in >> > Arnhem. Among them was a scan several years ago through the Netherlands >> > indices suggested by jroguetech in which I could find no one who looked >> > very >> > much like our Jan Dircks. (Didn't find a Sarah Theunis, either.) >> > >> > Jan Dirck's children didn't begin using the Van Arnhem surname until >> around >> > 1695, 14 years after the last record that mentions their father (who was >> > still using the presumed patronymic "Dircksen"). In other words, for >> more >> > than 30 years after 1664 the family was NOT named Van Arnhem. >> > >> > (Please don't ask why they eventually adopted a surname their father >> never >> > seems to have used. It's another of many things about the early family >> > that >> > don't seem to make any sense.) >> > >> > --pete >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 9:50 PM >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> > >> > >> > > >> > > I'm having trouble figuring out how to use this website. Could you >> post >> > > the >> > > results for the Van Arnhem's to this list? Thanks >> > > >> > > Susan Van Orman Claggett >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:43 PM >> > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> > > >> > > Here's a resource that shows some Van Arnhem's in Holland, going back >> as >> > > far >> > > as the 1600's. >> > > >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=10004 >> > > >> > > This has resources for New Amsterdam, New Holland: >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=193 >> > > (enter "Nieuw Amsterdam-New York" as Plaats) >> > > >> > > Does anyone have other resources for tracing the Van Arnhem's in >> Holland? >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I've been doing genealogy for about 6 months or so. My tree is somewhat skimpy, but I so much prefer spending time researching than tediously copying names from a book. My VO line if from NY to MI. Rogers then went to WI. Most of my people are in PA, or spread all over. Where I got the information that he was a soldier for the Dutch West India CO, I don't know. That may have been just an assumption in some book or other (New Amsterdam being run by the Dutch West India Co.). Why he came -- that's the real question, and one ever so rarely answered. Names and dates and facts, and none of it means a dang thing without the why. Your guess is a good as mine. He was probably young, since he was unmarried. Probably came from a poor (or somewhat poor) family. Being a soldier was a low-class profession, except officers. Presumably he wasn't an officer, or we'd have some record of it. With the recent end of the Eighty Years' War, have to wonder... Did his father fight? Did he simply follow his father's profession, and was shipped to New Amsterdam, or did he choose to come? Or maybe he wanted adventure, and soldiering in New Amsterdam was adventure on adventure. Or it could have been simple necissity - anything to pay the bills, as it were. Sadly, unless he left some long-lost memoirs, we'll never know. I would think that the Eighty Years Wars had a polarizing effect on society. After the war, Dutch trading skyrocketed, and they dominated trade for awhile. But trading benefits the middle and upper classes; bankers, merchants, ship owners. The lower class probably didn't fair so well, having taken the brunt of the fighting, as in any war. I found this; might be our Sara Theunis: ship DE TROUW (FAITH) January 1664 Maarcelis Jansen van Bommel; farmer Evert Tack, from the Barony of Breda Lysbet Arens, from Amsterdam, and child [re NWI- child 8 years old] Johannis Hardenbroeck, from Elberveld, and Wife and four children [re NWI children were 8,6,5 and 3] Janneken Juriaensen, from Gorcum Corneliss Cornelissen Vernoey, and Wife and sucking child Lysbet de Roode, from Dantzick, Wife of John Saline, and child [re NWI child was 3 years old] Sara Teunis Unfortunatly it gives no place of origin for Sara Teunis. However, the timing is right, as she marries Jan Dirksz in June (she's not the 3yo child listed above her). I haven't been able to find any other Sara Theunis' in a passenger list. It may be possible map out events for the other Sara Theunis' living in New Amsterdam, and possibly match it to our Sara Theunis by process of elimination. I was able to find only one Jan Dirksz, and it was clearly not a match. I believe that the only realistic ways to trace Jan Dirksz in the Netherlands would be to either find him in a passenger list (with hopefully more information), or to find military records. I working a few other leads on Sara, but so far nothing. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > Mind boggling to me but very interesting. Why do you think Jan Dirksz came > to New Amsterdam? Did he come as a paid soldier? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:48 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > > As a side note to my previous message, countries were also defined to some > extent as land owned by the king or royal family, or who owed them fielty. > However, the ruling family could inherit lands outside their contigious > bounderies, similiar to King George II inheriting the whole of England. > This > was also true of the Netherlands. The Hapsbergs had several large holdings > outside their contiguous bounderies. Unifying disperate holdings by > various monarchies played heavily in the Eighty Years' War. > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:33 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > > > John Rogers (Rogers -> Harriet Estelle VO -> Sardine Stone -> Abraham -> > > Abraham -> Lucas -> Isaac Jansz etc.) I'm in the US. > > > > I don't believe they are Scandinavian (that is Holland, Finland, Norway). > > They are almost certainly "from" the Netherlands, and there's no reason I > > know of that to believe they were born elsewhere. > > > > Since it's on topic of modern last names, don't forget that our > > understanding of countries is also a modern construct. Belguim and the > > Netherlands have not only seen upheaval in modern times, with map lines > > redrawn after World War I and World War II, but the Netherlands was > > not unified until 1540 under the Hapsburgs. However, being a small > country, > > there were constant struggles against Belgium, Prussia, and even Spain. > > During the Eighty Year' War (1568-1648), they were split in two. Since > this > > is in the time-frame of Jan Dirksz, in terms of political bounderies, it > > would be necessary to specify north or south Netherlands. Going backwards > in > > time, they were comprised of several "countries", and before that a > > multitude city-states, confederacies, and fiefdoms in the middle ages. > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Susan Claggett < > > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > >> > >> jroguetech@gmail.com what is your name? You have been sharing lots of > >> great > >> info with us but I don't know who you are by name. Are you in the US or > >> in > >> Holland? Thanks for your contributions! > >> > >> Susan > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:00 AM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >> > >> Last names weren't formally adopted (in New Amsterdam) until 1687, and > >> weren't in common use for much longer, even into the 1800's. > >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/pat.shtml > >> > >> Most records show Jan Dirksz as Jan Dirckszen > >> http://www.altlaw.com/edball/dutchbap.htm > >> (baptism date, father, mother, child, witness, witness) > >> Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria > Wouters > >> 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, Mayken > >> Laurens > >> 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna Le > >> Maistre > >> 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, > >> Tryntie > >> Hercks > >> 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel > >> Terneur, > >> Hester de La > >> Maistre, Marritie Pieters > >> 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > >> (?) 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden (I have > >> Marie listed as a child, but unsourced beyond this record.) > >> [This particuliar site is not easily sourced, since it's one long list; > >> there's a several sites with New Amsterdam baptisms and marriages. If > >> anyone > >> needs this info with years, I can provide urls.] > >> > >> Among others, also listed are Jan Dirckszen Straetman or > >> Straetmaecker (Street maker), Jan Dirckszen de Meyer/Mayer, Jan Dircxen > op > >> Hoboken, Jan Dirckszen van Bremen, and Jan Dirckszen van Amsterdam. > There > >> are also at least two, possibly three Sara Theunis'. > >> > >> Here's his marriage record, as being "van Arnhem". In addition to what > >> Pete > >> says, since he was a soldier, it's that much less reliable as a birth > >> place. > >> (I have a soldier of the Dutch West India Co., but I have no source.) > Sara > >> Theunis is listed as from Rotterdam. Possibly more reliable, but > Rotterdam > >> being a port city, it may have been more convient using her > >> (possible) departure place than her actual home. Lot's of times, I've > >> seem numerous immigrant ancester of mine using "New York" or "New > Jersey" > >> in > >> census records, rather than actual original country of origin. Note that > >> the > >> patronym system also applies to Sara - "Sara Theuniszen", or "daughter > of > >> Theunis". > >> > >> Soort bron: Trouwboek > >> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York > >> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 > >> Gezindte: NDG > >> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York > >> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen > >> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem > >> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen > >> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam > >> Jongedochter bruid: J > >> Vorige partner bruidegom: > >> Vorige partner bruid: > >> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat > >> > >> Translation: > >> Source Type: Wedding Book > >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York > >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 > >> Belief: NDG > >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York > >> Groom: January Dircksz > >> Hometown groom: Arnhem > >> Bride: Sara Theunisz > >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam > >> Young Daughter bride: J > >> Previous partner groom: > >> Previous partner bride > >> Further information: The groom is a soldier > >> [ > >> > >> > > http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRKQ2HdQx1CjKpnEFMD > >> > hX&xtr=21967397< > http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRK > Q2HdQx1CjKpnEFMDhX&xtr=21967397> > >> ] > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > May I point out again that "Van Arnhem", at least as it applies to the > >> > records of Jan Dircks Van Arnhem who married Sarah Theunis, is clearly > a > >> > descriptor, not a surname. It means he was "from" Arnhem; perhaps > born > >> > there, perhaps raised there, perhaps lived there for a while before he > >> came > >> > to New Amsterdam. > >> > > >> > Half a dozen bits collectively suggest to me he probably wasn't born > in > >> > Arnhem. Among them was a scan several years ago through the > Netherlands > >> > indices suggested by jroguetech in which I could find no one who > looked > >> > very > >> > much like our Jan Dircks. (Didn't find a Sarah Theunis, either.) > >> > > >> > Jan Dirck's children didn't begin using the Van Arnhem surname until > >> around > >> > 1695, 14 years after the last record that mentions their father (who > was > >> > still using the presumed patronymic "Dircksen"). In other words, for > >> more > >> > than 30 years after 1664 the family was NOT named Van Arnhem. > >> > > >> > (Please don't ask why they eventually adopted a surname their father > >> never > >> > seems to have used. It's another of many things about the early > family > >> > that > >> > don't seem to make any sense.) > >> > > >> > --pete > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 9:50 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > I'm having trouble figuring out how to use this website. Could you > >> post > >> > > the > >> > > results for the Van Arnhem's to this list? Thanks > >> > > > >> > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:43 PM > >> > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >> > > > >> > > Here's a resource that shows some Van Arnhem's in Holland, going > back > >> as > >> > > far > >> > > as the 1600's. > >> > > > >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=10004 > >> > > > >> > > This has resources for New Amsterdam, New Holland: > >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=193 > >> > > (enter "Nieuw Amsterdam-New York" as Plaats) > >> > > > >> > > Does anyone have other resources for tracing the Van Arnhem's in > >> Holland? > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- > >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- > >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
John you have probably seen this before: Date: Tue Nov 12 08:31:23 1996 Name: John VanOrman E- mail: john.vanorman@qm.caled onia.k12.mi.us> Address: Surname of Immigrant: VANARNHEM Given name(s) of Immigrant: Jan Dirksen Origin of Immigrant: Netherlands, possibly Arnhem Name of Ship: ? Arrival Date: before 1654 Immigrant's Date & Place of Birth: 1625-1645 possibly Arnhem, Netherlands Immigrant's Date & Place of Death: ? Immigrant's Spouse: Sarah Theunis Source of Information: Baptismal records Immigrant's Children: Dirckse b. 1664, Magdalin b. 1669, Jan b. 1671, Abraham b.1673, Maria b. 1675, Catharine b. 1677, Isaac and Jacob (twins) b 1680. Notes: Jan Dirksen VANARNEHM"s third child, Jan Jansz VANARNEHM married Hester Fonda of Albany NY on 14 October 1696. -------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:19 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource I've been doing genealogy for about 6 months or so. My tree is somewhat skimpy, but I so much prefer spending time researching than tediously copying names from a book. My VO line if from NY to MI. Rogers then went to WI. Most of my people are in PA, or spread all over. Where I got the information that he was a soldier for the Dutch West India CO, I don't know. That may have been just an assumption in some book or other (New Amsterdam being run by the Dutch West India Co.). Why he came -- that's the real question, and one ever so rarely answered. Names and dates and facts, and none of it means a dang thing without the why. Your guess is a good as mine. He was probably young, since he was unmarried. Probably came from a poor (or somewhat poor) family. Being a soldier was a low-class profession, except officers. Presumably he wasn't an officer, or we'd have some record of it. With the recent end of the Eighty Years' War, have to wonder... Did his father fight? Did he simply follow his father's profession, and was shipped to New Amsterdam, or did he choose to come? Or maybe he wanted adventure, and soldiering in New Amsterdam was adventure on adventure. Or it could have been simple necissity - anything to pay the bills, as it were. Sadly, unless he left some long-lost memoirs, we'll never know. I would think that the Eighty Years Wars had a polarizing effect on society. After the war, Dutch trading skyrocketed, and they dominated trade for awhile. But trading benefits the middle and upper classes; bankers, merchants, ship owners. The lower class probably didn't fair so well, having taken the brunt of the fighting, as in any war. I found this; might be our Sara Theunis: ship DE TROUW (FAITH) January 1664 Maarcelis Jansen van Bommel; farmer Evert Tack, from the Barony of Breda Lysbet Arens, from Amsterdam, and child [re NWI- child 8 years old] Johannis Hardenbroeck, from Elberveld, and Wife and four children [re NWI children were 8,6,5 and 3] Janneken Juriaensen, from Gorcum Corneliss Cornelissen Vernoey, and Wife and sucking child Lysbet de Roode, from Dantzick, Wife of John Saline, and child [re NWI child was 3 years old] Sara Teunis Unfortunatly it gives no place of origin for Sara Teunis. However, the timing is right, as she marries Jan Dirksz in June (she's not the 3yo child listed above her). I haven't been able to find any other Sara Theunis' in a passenger list. It may be possible map out events for the other Sara Theunis' living in New Amsterdam, and possibly match it to our Sara Theunis by process of elimination. I was able to find only one Jan Dirksz, and it was clearly not a match. I believe that the only realistic ways to trace Jan Dirksz in the Netherlands would be to either find him in a passenger list (with hopefully more information), or to find military records. I working a few other leads on Sara, but so far nothing. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > Mind boggling to me but very interesting. Why do you think Jan Dirksz came > to New Amsterdam? Did he come as a paid soldier? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:48 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > > As a side note to my previous message, countries were also defined to some > extent as land owned by the king or royal family, or who owed them fielty. > However, the ruling family could inherit lands outside their contigious > bounderies, similiar to King George II inheriting the whole of England. > This > was also true of the Netherlands. The Hapsbergs had several large holdings > outside their contiguous bounderies. Unifying disperate holdings by > various monarchies played heavily in the Eighty Years' War. > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:33 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > > > John Rogers (Rogers -> Harriet Estelle VO -> Sardine Stone -> Abraham -> > > Abraham -> Lucas -> Isaac Jansz etc.) I'm in the US. > > > > I don't believe they are Scandinavian (that is Holland, Finland, Norway). > > They are almost certainly "from" the Netherlands, and there's no reason I > > know of that to believe they were born elsewhere. > > > > Since it's on topic of modern last names, don't forget that our > > understanding of countries is also a modern construct. Belguim and the > > Netherlands have not only seen upheaval in modern times, with map lines > > redrawn after World War I and World War II, but the Netherlands was > > not unified until 1540 under the Hapsburgs. However, being a small > country, > > there were constant struggles against Belgium, Prussia, and even Spain. > > During the Eighty Year' War (1568-1648), they were split in two. Since > this > > is in the time-frame of Jan Dirksz, in terms of political bounderies, it > > would be necessary to specify north or south Netherlands. Going backwards > in > > time, they were comprised of several "countries", and before that a > > multitude city-states, confederacies, and fiefdoms in the middle ages. > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Susan Claggett < > > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > >> > >> jroguetech@gmail.com what is your name? You have been sharing lots of > >> great > >> info with us but I don't know who you are by name. Are you in the US or > >> in > >> Holland? Thanks for your contributions! > >> > >> Susan > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:00 AM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >> > >> Last names weren't formally adopted (in New Amsterdam) until 1687, and > >> weren't in common use for much longer, even into the 1800's. > >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/pat.shtml > >> > >> Most records show Jan Dirksz as Jan Dirckszen > >> http://www.altlaw.com/edball/dutchbap.htm > >> (baptism date, father, mother, child, witness, witness) > >> Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria > Wouters > >> 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, Mayken > >> Laurens > >> 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna Le > >> Maistre > >> 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, > >> Tryntie > >> Hercks > >> 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel > >> Terneur, > >> Hester de La > >> Maistre, Marritie Pieters > >> 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > >> (?) 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden (I have > >> Marie listed as a child, but unsourced beyond this record.) > >> [This particuliar site is not easily sourced, since it's one long list; > >> there's a several sites with New Amsterdam baptisms and marriages. If > >> anyone > >> needs this info with years, I can provide urls.] > >> > >> Among others, also listed are Jan Dirckszen Straetman or > >> Straetmaecker (Street maker), Jan Dirckszen de Meyer/Mayer, Jan Dircxen > op > >> Hoboken, Jan Dirckszen van Bremen, and Jan Dirckszen van Amsterdam. > There > >> are also at least two, possibly three Sara Theunis'. > >> > >> Here's his marriage record, as being "van Arnhem". In addition to what > >> Pete > >> says, since he was a soldier, it's that much less reliable as a birth > >> place. > >> (I have a soldier of the Dutch West India Co., but I have no source.) > Sara > >> Theunis is listed as from Rotterdam. Possibly more reliable, but > Rotterdam > >> being a port city, it may have been more convient using her > >> (possible) departure place than her actual home. Lot's of times, I've > >> seem numerous immigrant ancester of mine using "New York" or "New > Jersey" > >> in > >> census records, rather than actual original country of origin. Note that > >> the > >> patronym system also applies to Sara - "Sara Theuniszen", or "daughter > of > >> Theunis". > >> > >> Soort bron: Trouwboek > >> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York > >> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 > >> Gezindte: NDG > >> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York > >> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen > >> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem > >> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen > >> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam > >> Jongedochter bruid: J > >> Vorige partner bruidegom: > >> Vorige partner bruid: > >> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat > >> > >> Translation: > >> Source Type: Wedding Book > >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York > >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 > >> Belief: NDG > >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York > >> Groom: January Dircksz > >> Hometown groom: Arnhem > >> Bride: Sara Theunisz > >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam > >> Young Daughter bride: J > >> Previous partner groom: > >> Previous partner bride > >> Further information: The groom is a soldier > >> [ > >> > >> > > http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRKQ2HdQx1CjKpnEFMD > >> > hX&xtr=21967397< > http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRK > Q2HdQx1CjKpnEFMDhX&xtr=21967397> > >> ] > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > May I point out again that "Van Arnhem", at least as it applies to the > >> > records of Jan Dircks Van Arnhem who married Sarah Theunis, is clearly > a > >> > descriptor, not a surname. It means he was "from" Arnhem; perhaps > born > >> > there, perhaps raised there, perhaps lived there for a while before he > >> came > >> > to New Amsterdam. > >> > > >> > Half a dozen bits collectively suggest to me he probably wasn't born > in > >> > Arnhem. Among them was a scan several years ago through the > Netherlands > >> > indices suggested by jroguetech in which I could find no one who > looked > >> > very > >> > much like our Jan Dircks. (Didn't find a Sarah Theunis, either.) > >> > > >> > Jan Dirck's children didn't begin using the Van Arnhem surname until > >> around > >> > 1695, 14 years after the last record that mentions their father (who > was > >> > still using the presumed patronymic "Dircksen"). In other words, for > >> more > >> > than 30 years after 1664 the family was NOT named Van Arnhem. > >> > > >> > (Please don't ask why they eventually adopted a surname their father > >> never > >> > seems to have used. It's another of many things about the early > family > >> > that > >> > don't seem to make any sense.) > >> > > >> > --pete > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 9:50 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > I'm having trouble figuring out how to use this website. Could you > >> post > >> > > the > >> > > results for the Van Arnhem's to this list? Thanks > >> > > > >> > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:43 PM > >> > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >> > > > >> > > Here's a resource that shows some Van Arnhem's in Holland, going > back > >> as > >> > > far > >> > > as the 1600's. > >> > > > >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=10004 > >> > > > >> > > This has resources for New Amsterdam, New Holland: > >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=193 > >> > > (enter "Nieuw Amsterdam-New York" as Plaats) > >> > > > >> > > Does anyone have other resources for tracing the Van Arnhem's in > >> Holland? > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- > >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- > >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Has anyone come across this before? Could this be anything? Jan Dircksen van Bremen http://www.archive.org/stream/16301897briefhis00rose/16301897briefhis00rose_ djvu.txt Preserved among the Fort Orange Records of date 1660, May 27, is the "petition of Jan Dircksen van Bremen, Albert James von Volekenburgh, et al., praying that Dutch as well as Indians brokers be employed to trade with the Indians," and among the names ap- pended is " Henderick Roseboom." The other party were for pro- hibiting all Europeans, " Christians," from treading the forest paths, thus excluding civilization. The first date after this is Sept. 13, 1662, when he purchased a house and lot "in the village of Bever- wyck, on the hill," and from this time on his name is found in num- erous authentic documents in the annals of Albany. The property mentioned was of historical interest, having been patented to Pieter Bronck. "As it stands with all that is fast by earth and nailed, and a? great as the patent thereof mentions," it was conveyed by Reyndert Pieterse (Bronck?) and Jacob Herick (Gerick), "for the sum of 550 guilders, payable in good merchantable beavers, at eight guilders apiece, in two installments, in July '63 and '64," the two "sellers" setting their "marks," but Rooseboom writing hi^ name with his own hand. November 16, of that year, he is surety with J. J. Schermerhooren for Jurriaen Janssen in the purchase of a house from the estate of Andries Herbertsen, for the benefit of the widow. The exact situations of the ancient properties in Albany have been carefully ascertained and mapped, so that we can fix the pre- cise spot where this ancestor lived. It lay on the east side of Norlli Pearl street, northward of Maiden Lane. The palisades constitu- ting the northerly fortifications of the settlement passed through the middle of the land-plat, and the name of " Roseboom's gate" was o-iven to the exit which existed at that point, the "Burghers' block-
I agree with several of your conclusions. On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record lists him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to WIC. (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble for having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither in later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership qualities. I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any record of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and occupation, being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and possibly Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, they might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. -------- Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. Aside from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, Sara, was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long one and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The somewhat mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort of relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother or some sort of cousin. If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research I can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan Dircks and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > I've been doing genealogy for about 6 months or so. My tree is somewhat > skimpy, but I so much prefer spending time researching than tediously > copying names from a book. My VO line if from NY to MI. Rogers then went > to > WI. Most of my people are in PA, or spread all over. > > Where I got the information that he was a soldier for the Dutch West India > CO, I don't know. That may have been just an assumption in some book or > other (New Amsterdam being run by the Dutch West India Co.). Why he > came -- > that's the real question, and one ever so rarely answered. Names and dates > and facts, and none of it means a dang thing without the why. > > Your guess is a good as mine. He was probably young, since he was > unmarried. > Probably came from a poor (or somewhat poor) family. Being a soldier was a > low-class profession, except officers. Presumably he wasn't an officer, or > we'd have some record of it. With the recent end of the Eighty Years' War, > have to wonder... Did his father fight? Did he simply follow his father's > profession, and was shipped to New Amsterdam, or did he choose to come? Or > maybe he wanted adventure, and soldiering in New Amsterdam was adventure > on > adventure. Or it could have been simple necissity - anything to pay the > bills, as it were. Sadly, unless he left some long-lost memoirs, we'll > never > know. I would think that the Eighty Years Wars had a polarizing effect on > society. After the war, Dutch trading skyrocketed, and they dominated > trade > for awhile. But trading benefits the middle and upper classes; bankers, > merchants, ship owners. The lower class probably didn't fair so well, > having > taken the brunt of the fighting, as in any war. > > I found this; might be our Sara Theunis: > > ship DE TROUW (FAITH) > January 1664 > Maarcelis Jansen van Bommel; farmer > Evert Tack, from the Barony of Breda > Lysbet Arens, from Amsterdam, and child [re NWI- child 8 years old] > Johannis Hardenbroeck, from Elberveld, and Wife and four children [re NWI > children were 8,6,5 and 3] > Janneken Juriaensen, from Gorcum > Corneliss Cornelissen Vernoey, and Wife and sucking child > Lysbet de Roode, from Dantzick, Wife of John Saline, and child [re NWI > child > was 3 years old] > Sara Teunis > > Unfortunatly it gives no place of origin for Sara Teunis. However, the > timing is right, as she marries Jan Dirksz in June (she's not the 3yo > child > listed above her). I haven't been able to find any other Sara Theunis' in > a > passenger list. It may be possible map out events for the other Sara > Theunis' living in New Amsterdam, and possibly match it to our Sara > Theunis > by process of elimination. > > I was able to find only one Jan Dirksz, and it was clearly not a match. I > believe that the only realistic ways to trace Jan Dirksz in the > Netherlands > would be to either find him in a passenger list (with hopefully more > information), or to find military records. I working a few other leads on > Sara, but so far nothing. > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > >> Mind boggling to me but very interesting. Why do you think Jan Dirksz >> came >> to New Amsterdam? Did he come as a paid soldier? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:48 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> As a side note to my previous message, countries were also defined to >> some >> extent as land owned by the king or royal family, or who owed them >> fielty. >> However, the ruling family could inherit lands outside their contigious >> bounderies, similiar to King George II inheriting the whole of England. >> This >> was also true of the Netherlands. The Hapsbergs had several large >> holdings >> outside their contiguous bounderies. Unifying disperate holdings by >> various monarchies played heavily in the Eighty Years' War. >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:33 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > John Rogers (Rogers -> Harriet Estelle VO -> Sardine Stone -> >> > Abraham -> >> > Abraham -> Lucas -> Isaac Jansz etc.) I'm in the US. >> > >> > I don't believe they are Scandinavian (that is Holland, Finland, >> > Norway). >> > They are almost certainly "from" the Netherlands, and there's no reason >> > I >> > know of that to believe they were born elsewhere. >> > >> > Since it's on topic of modern last names, don't forget that our >> > understanding of countries is also a modern construct. Belguim and the >> > Netherlands have not only seen upheaval in modern times, with map lines >> > redrawn after World War I and World War II, but the Netherlands was >> > not unified until 1540 under the Hapsburgs. However, being a small >> country, >> > there were constant struggles against Belgium, Prussia, and even Spain. >> > During the Eighty Year' War (1568-1648), they were split in two. Since >> this >> > is in the time-frame of Jan Dirksz, in terms of political bounderies, >> > it >> > would be necessary to specify north or south Netherlands. Going >> > backwards >> in >> > time, they were comprised of several "countries", and before that a >> > multitude city-states, confederacies, and fiefdoms in the middle ages. >> > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Susan Claggett < >> > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> jroguetech@gmail.com what is your name? You have been sharing lots of >> >> great >> >> info with us but I don't know who you are by name. Are you in the US >> >> or >> >> in >> >> Holland? Thanks for your contributions! >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:00 AM >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> >> >> Last names weren't formally adopted (in New Amsterdam) until 1687, and >> >> weren't in common use for much longer, even into the 1800's. >> >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/pat.shtml >> >> >> >> Most records show Jan Dirksz as Jan Dirckszen >> >> http://www.altlaw.com/edball/dutchbap.htm >> >> (baptism date, father, mother, child, witness, witness) >> >> Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >> Wouters >> >> 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, >> >> Mayken >> >> Laurens >> >> 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna >> >> Le >> >> Maistre >> >> 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> >> Tryntie >> >> Hercks >> >> 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel >> >> Terneur, >> >> Hester de La >> >> Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> (?) 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden (I >> >> have >> >> Marie listed as a child, but unsourced beyond this record.) >> >> [This particuliar site is not easily sourced, since it's one long >> >> list; >> >> there's a several sites with New Amsterdam baptisms and marriages. If >> >> anyone >> >> needs this info with years, I can provide urls.] >> >> >> >> Among others, also listed are Jan Dirckszen Straetman or >> >> Straetmaecker (Street maker), Jan Dirckszen de Meyer/Mayer, Jan >> >> Dircxen >> op >> >> Hoboken, Jan Dirckszen van Bremen, and Jan Dirckszen van Amsterdam. >> There >> >> are also at least two, possibly three Sara Theunis'. >> >> >> >> Here's his marriage record, as being "van Arnhem". In addition to what >> >> Pete >> >> says, since he was a soldier, it's that much less reliable as a birth >> >> place. >> >> (I have a soldier of the Dutch West India Co., but I have no source.) >> Sara >> >> Theunis is listed as from Rotterdam. Possibly more reliable, but >> Rotterdam >> >> being a port city, it may have been more convient using her >> >> (possible) departure place than her actual home. Lot's of times, I've >> >> seem numerous immigrant ancester of mine using "New York" or "New >> Jersey" >> >> in >> >> census records, rather than actual original country of origin. Note >> >> that >> >> the >> >> patronym system also applies to Sara - "Sara Theuniszen", or "daughter >> of >> >> Theunis". >> >> >> >> Soort bron: Trouwboek >> >> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >> >> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >> >> Gezindte: NDG >> >> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >> >> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >> >> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >> >> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >> >> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >> >> Jongedochter bruid: J >> >> Vorige partner bruidegom: >> >> Vorige partner bruid: >> >> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >> >> >> >> Translation: >> >> Source Type: Wedding Book >> >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >> >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >> >> Belief: NDG >> >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >> >> Groom: January Dircksz >> >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >> >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >> >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >> >> Young Daughter bride: J >> >> Previous partner groom: >> >> Previous partner bride >> >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >> >> [ >> >> >> >> >> >> http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRKQ2HdQx1CjKpnEFMD >> >> >> hX&xtr=21967397< >> http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRK >> Q2HdQx1CjKpnEFMDhX&xtr=21967397> >> >> ] >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > May I point out again that "Van Arnhem", at least as it applies to >> >> > the >> >> > records of Jan Dircks Van Arnhem who married Sarah Theunis, is >> >> > clearly >> a >> >> > descriptor, not a surname. It means he was "from" Arnhem; perhaps >> born >> >> > there, perhaps raised there, perhaps lived there for a while before >> >> > he >> >> came >> >> > to New Amsterdam. >> >> > >> >> > Half a dozen bits collectively suggest to me he probably wasn't born >> in >> >> > Arnhem. Among them was a scan several years ago through the >> Netherlands >> >> > indices suggested by jroguetech in which I could find no one who >> looked >> >> > very >> >> > much like our Jan Dircks. (Didn't find a Sarah Theunis, either.) >> >> > >> >> > Jan Dirck's children didn't begin using the Van Arnhem surname until >> >> around >> >> > 1695, 14 years after the last record that mentions their father (who >> was >> >> > still using the presumed patronymic "Dircksen"). In other words, for >> >> more >> >> > than 30 years after 1664 the family was NOT named Van Arnhem. >> >> > >> >> > (Please don't ask why they eventually adopted a surname their father >> >> never >> >> > seems to have used. It's another of many things about the early >> family >> >> > that >> >> > don't seem to make any sense.) >> >> > >> >> > --pete >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> >> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 9:50 PM >> >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > I'm having trouble figuring out how to use this website. Could >> >> > > you >> >> post >> >> > > the >> >> > > results for the Van Arnhem's to this list? Thanks >> >> > > >> >> > > Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> > > -----Original Message----- >> >> > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:43 PM >> >> > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> > > >> >> > > Here's a resource that shows some Van Arnhem's in Holland, going >> back >> >> as >> >> > > far >> >> > > as the 1600's. >> >> > > >> >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=10004 >> >> > > >> >> > > This has resources for New Amsterdam, New Holland: >> >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=193 >> >> > > (enter "Nieuw Amsterdam-New York" as Plaats) >> >> > > >> >> > > Does anyone have other resources for tracing the Van Arnhem's in >> >> Holland? >> >> > > >> >> > > ------------------------------- >> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> the >> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > ------------------------------- >> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> the >> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%22+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > I agree with several of your conclusions. > > On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record lists > him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to WIC. > (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > > It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble for > having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, > behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither in > later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership > qualities. > > I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any record > of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > > I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and occupation, > being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a > high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of > making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to > starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. > Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. > > For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and possibly > Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, they > might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. > Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > -------- > Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. Aside > from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, Sara, > was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long one > and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > > In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks > logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > > Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The somewhat > mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort of > relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother or > some sort of cousin. > > If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research I > can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan Dircks > and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. > > --pete > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:19 AM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > > >> I've been doing genealogy for about 6 months or so. My tree is somewhat >> skimpy, but I so much prefer spending time researching than tediously >> copying names from a book. My VO line if from NY to MI. Rogers then went >> to >> WI. Most of my people are in PA, or spread all over. >> >> Where I got the information that he was a soldier for the Dutch West India >> CO, I don't know. That may have been just an assumption in some book or >> other (New Amsterdam being run by the Dutch West India Co.). Why he >> came -- >> that's the real question, and one ever so rarely answered. Names and dates >> and facts, and none of it means a dang thing without the why. >> >> Your guess is a good as mine. He was probably young, since he was >> unmarried. >> Probably came from a poor (or somewhat poor) family. Being a soldier was a >> low-class profession, except officers. Presumably he wasn't an officer, or >> we'd have some record of it. With the recent end of the Eighty Years' War, >> have to wonder... Did his father fight? Did he simply follow his father's >> profession, and was shipped to New Amsterdam, or did he choose to come? Or >> maybe he wanted adventure, and soldiering in New Amsterdam was adventure >> on >> adventure. Or it could have been simple necissity - anything to pay the >> bills, as it were. Sadly, unless he left some long-lost memoirs, we'll >> never >> know. I would think that the Eighty Years Wars had a polarizing effect on >> society. After the war, Dutch trading skyrocketed, and they dominated >> trade >> for awhile. But trading benefits the middle and upper classes; bankers, >> merchants, ship owners. The lower class probably didn't fair so well, >> having >> taken the brunt of the fighting, as in any war. >> >> I found this; might be our Sara Theunis: >> >> ship DE TROUW (FAITH) >> January 1664 >> Maarcelis Jansen van Bommel; farmer >> Evert Tack, from the Barony of Breda >> Lysbet Arens, from Amsterdam, and child [re NWI- child 8 years old] >> Johannis Hardenbroeck, from Elberveld, and Wife and four children [re NWI >> children were 8,6,5 and 3] >> Janneken Juriaensen, from Gorcum >> Corneliss Cornelissen Vernoey, and Wife and sucking child >> Lysbet de Roode, from Dantzick, Wife of John Saline, and child [re NWI >> child >> was 3 years old] >> Sara Teunis >> >> Unfortunatly it gives no place of origin for Sara Teunis. However, the >> timing is right, as she marries Jan Dirksz in June (she's not the 3yo >> child >> listed above her). I haven't been able to find any other Sara Theunis' in >> a >> passenger list. It may be possible map out events for the other Sara >> Theunis' living in New Amsterdam, and possibly match it to our Sara >> Theunis >> by process of elimination. >> >> I was able to find only one Jan Dirksz, and it was clearly not a match. I >> believe that the only realistic ways to trace Jan Dirksz in the >> Netherlands >> would be to either find him in a passenger list (with hopefully more >> information), or to find military records. I working a few other leads on >> Sara, but so far nothing. >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >> >>> Mind boggling to me but very interesting. Why do you think Jan Dirksz >>> came >>> to New Amsterdam? Did he come as a paid soldier? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:48 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> As a side note to my previous message, countries were also defined to >>> some >>> extent as land owned by the king or royal family, or who owed them >>> fielty. >>> However, the ruling family could inherit lands outside their contigious >>> bounderies, similiar to King George II inheriting the whole of England. >>> This >>> was also true of the Netherlands. The Hapsbergs had several large >>> holdings >>> outside their contiguous bounderies. Unifying disperate holdings by >>> various monarchies played heavily in the Eighty Years' War. >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:33 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> > John Rogers (Rogers -> Harriet Estelle VO -> Sardine Stone -> >>> > Abraham -> >>> > Abraham -> Lucas -> Isaac Jansz etc.) I'm in the US. >>> > >>> > I don't believe they are Scandinavian (that is Holland, Finland, >>> > Norway). >>> > They are almost certainly "from" the Netherlands, and there's no reason >>> > I >>> > know of that to believe they were born elsewhere. >>> > >>> > Since it's on topic of modern last names, don't forget that our >>> > understanding of countries is also a modern construct. Belguim and the >>> > Netherlands have not only seen upheaval in modern times, with map lines >>> > redrawn after World War I and World War II, but the Netherlands was >>> > not unified until 1540 under the Hapsburgs. However, being a small >>> country, >>> > there were constant struggles against Belgium, Prussia, and even Spain. >>> > During the Eighty Year' War (1568-1648), they were split in two. Since >>> this >>> > is in the time-frame of Jan Dirksz, in terms of political bounderies, >>> > it >>> > would be necessary to specify north or south Netherlands. Going >>> > backwards >>> in >>> > time, they were comprised of several "countries", and before that a >>> > multitude city-states, confederacies, and fiefdoms in the middle ages. >>> > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Susan Claggett < >>> > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> > >>> >> >>> >> jroguetech@gmail.com what is your name? You have been sharing lots of >>> >> great >>> >> info with us but I don't know who you are by name. Are you in the US >>> >> or >>> >> in >>> >> Holland? Thanks for your contributions! >>> >> >>> >> Susan >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:00 AM >>> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >> >>> >> Last names weren't formally adopted (in New Amsterdam) until 1687, and >>> >> weren't in common use for much longer, even into the 1800's. >>> >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/pat.shtml >>> >> >>> >> Most records show Jan Dirksz as Jan Dirckszen >>> >> http://www.altlaw.com/edball/dutchbap.htm >>> >> (baptism date, father, mother, child, witness, witness) >>> >> Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >>> Wouters >>> >> 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, >>> >> Mayken >>> >> Laurens >>> >> 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna >>> >> Le >>> >> Maistre >>> >> 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >>> >> Tryntie >>> >> Hercks >>> >> 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel >>> >> Terneur, >>> >> Hester de La >>> >> Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>> >> 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> >> (?) 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden (I >>> >> have >>> >> Marie listed as a child, but unsourced beyond this record.) >>> >> [This particuliar site is not easily sourced, since it's one long >>> >> list; >>> >> there's a several sites with New Amsterdam baptisms and marriages. If >>> >> anyone >>> >> needs this info with years, I can provide urls.] >>> >> >>> >> Among others, also listed are Jan Dirckszen Straetman or >>> >> Straetmaecker (Street maker), Jan Dirckszen de Meyer/Mayer, Jan >>> >> Dircxen >>> op >>> >> Hoboken, Jan Dirckszen van Bremen, and Jan Dirckszen van Amsterdam. >>> There >>> >> are also at least two, possibly three Sara Theunis'. >>> >> >>> >> Here's his marriage record, as being "van Arnhem". In addition to what >>> >> Pete >>> >> says, since he was a soldier, it's that much less reliable as a birth >>> >> place. >>> >> (I have a soldier of the Dutch West India Co., but I have no source.) >>> Sara >>> >> Theunis is listed as from Rotterdam. Possibly more reliable, but >>> Rotterdam >>> >> being a port city, it may have been more convient using her >>> >> (possible) departure place than her actual home. Lot's of times, I've >>> >> seem numerous immigrant ancester of mine using "New York" or "New >>> Jersey" >>> >> in >>> >> census records, rather than actual original country of origin. Note >>> >> that >>> >> the >>> >> patronym system also applies to Sara - "Sara Theuniszen", or "daughter >>> of >>> >> Theunis". >>> >> >>> >> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>> >> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>> >> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>> >> Gezindte: NDG >>> >> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>> >> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>> >> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>> >> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>> >> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>> >> Jongedochter bruid: J >>> >> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>> >> Vorige partner bruid: >>> >> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>> >> >>> >> Translation: >>> >> Source Type: Wedding Book >>> >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>> >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>> >> Belief: NDG >>> >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>> >> Groom: January Dircksz >>> >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>> >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>> >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>> >> Young Daughter bride: J >>> >> Previous partner groom: >>> >> Previous partner bride >>> >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>> >> [ >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRKQ2HdQx1CjKpnEFMD >>> >> >>> hX&xtr=21967397< >>> http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRK >>> Q2HdQx1CjKpnEFMDhX&xtr=21967397> >>> >> ] >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > May I point out again that "Van Arnhem", at least as it applies to >>> >> > the >>> >> > records of Jan Dircks Van Arnhem who married Sarah Theunis, is >>> >> > clearly >>> a >>> >> > descriptor, not a surname. It means he was "from" Arnhem; perhaps >>> born >>> >> > there, perhaps raised there, perhaps lived there for a while before >>> >> > he >>> >> came >>> >> > to New Amsterdam. >>> >> > >>> >> > Half a dozen bits collectively suggest to me he probably wasn't born >>> in >>> >> > Arnhem. Among them was a scan several years ago through the >>> Netherlands >>> >> > indices suggested by jroguetech in which I could find no one who >>> looked >>> >> > very >>> >> > much like our Jan Dircks. (Didn't find a Sarah Theunis, either.) >>> >> > >>> >> > Jan Dirck's children didn't begin using the Van Arnhem surname until >>> >> around >>> >> > 1695, 14 years after the last record that mentions their father (who >>> was >>> >> > still using the presumed patronymic "Dircksen"). In other words, for >>> >> more >>> >> > than 30 years after 1664 the family was NOT named Van Arnhem. >>> >> > >>> >> > (Please don't ask why they eventually adopted a surname their father >>> >> never >>> >> > seems to have used. It's another of many things about the early >>> family >>> >> > that >>> >> > don't seem to make any sense.) >>> >> > >>> >> > --pete >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> >> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 9:50 PM >>> >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > I'm having trouble figuring out how to use this website. Could >>> >> > > you >>> >> post >>> >> > > the >>> >> > > results for the Van Arnhem's to this list? Thanks >>> >> > > >>> >> > > Susan Van Orman Claggett >>> >> > > -----Original Message----- >>> >> > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:43 PM >>> >> > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> >> > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >> > > >>> >> > > Here's a resource that shows some Van Arnhem's in Holland, going >>> back >>> >> as >>> >> > > far >>> >> > > as the 1600's. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=10004 >>> >> > > >>> >> > > This has resources for New Amsterdam, New Holland: >>> >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=193 >>> >> > > (enter "Nieuw Amsterdam-New York" as Plaats) >>> >> > > >>> >> > > Does anyone have other resources for tracing the Van Arnhem's in >>> >> Holland? >>> >> > > >>> >> > > ------------------------------- >>> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> >> the >>> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > ------------------------------- >>> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> >> the >>> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > ------------------------------- >>> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------- >>> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------- >>> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
To all Van Norman genealogists You are invited to the unveiling of a UEL plaque at Millgrove cemetery (in old West Flamborough Township) now a rural part of the City of Hamilton, Ontario. The event will include a brief history of the cemetery and a presentation about Daniel Cummins UE, an original loyalist who was buried there. Saturday 16 Oct 2010 at 2 pm. Daniel Cummins was an ancestor to many Van Normans since his three daughters married 3 sons of Ephraim Van Norman and Elizabeth Miner: Isaac Van Norman married Catharine Cummins Joseph Van Norman married Christina Cummins Abraham Van Norman married Charity Cummins. Millgrove cemetery is located 200 meters north of the intersection of Millgrove Road (Fifth Concession Road West) and Millgrove Sideroad. Millgrove Road is 7 miles north of the centre of the City of Hamilton Ontario on Ontario Highway 6. The event is hosted by the Millgrove Cemetery Board and the Hamilton Branch of the United Empire Loyalists Association of Canada. For information contact: Raymond.cummins@utoronto.ca