Hi Pim: Thanks for your note with more fascinating tidbits for me to try to look up and learn more about this next week. I am looking forward to our group discussing it more with you when you return from Spain. Enjoy your trip! Best Regards, Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 2:59 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen Hi Susan, I'm packing right now to travel coming week to Spain, so at this moment I'll give you a very short answer, hoping to reply more in detail when I return. Good to see that Jan used his surname as soon as his wedding: that supports that Van Arnhem is his surname, and not te place where he came from (Sara is'nt called Sara van Rotterdam to make a comparison!). Then your questions: I have the information that Jan was baptized on Saterday 13 october 1640 in Arnhem [Dutchs Hervormd] and travelled with "Het Gebroken Hart" (Broken Heart) when he came to New York in januari 1664. For the source of this info I have to dig it up later. I haven't done research on Sarah, so probably Pete is right in his argument ... but we still can't be sure building on arguments. There are written already many thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sarah's first child and the date of wedding. I don't know how long a trip was, but probably Sarah was already pregnant (by Jan) before they left te Neterlands. I have many accounts (even of people born in the 20th century) of children being born a few months after de weddingday: the couple being in love haven a sexual relationship before marriage ... nothing new under the sun - especcially not for soldiers. But for this, we should know how long the boat trip was and I don't have that clear right now. There has been a noble Van Arnhem family in the Netherlands as far as we know from around the year 1100 up to 1716 when the last of these noble Van Arnhems died, without leaving children. But, there are several "bastards" from this family. A basterd was not a noble man and most of the time they didn't have any part of the inheritance of their father. This is probably the reason for some of the Van Arnhem family-branches in the Netherlands (in one instance I'm quite sure of it). Thanks for your honest questions and the open mind to research all possibilities. Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 12-10-2010 9:01, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Holland resource (stolen boots) (Susan Claggett) > 2. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > 3. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:18:22 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<7A5B48FA93374597B1B226F7B1FAA5C1@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I love all of this background information Pete. It really adds personality > to our search. > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:57:09 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<0FC16FEA77E7406AB712B28DB834FB22@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Regards, > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:25:30 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<B2D6AC5010D84FF1B6DDCE59A56C9B38@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C > <http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Di > rcksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum= > 1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false> > &pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dircksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi > =book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > > Regards, > > > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > > P.S. I am having trouble getting this to go through to the list. If it > duplicates I apologize. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 148 > ***************************************** > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
My understanding of Dutch nobility, is that they did not pass down their nobility except the first born male. The manor/estate also only went to the first born. This was so not to dilute the nobility. Other sons went into some profession, and were sometimes given allowances. For inheritance, they would not recieve a part of the estate as such, but would often recieve a monetary inheritance. Course I may be wrong. Have a good trip! > There has been a noble Van Arnhem family in the Netherlands as far as we > know from around the year 1100 up to 1716 when the last of these noble > Van Arnhems died, without leaving children. But, there are several > "bastards" from this family. A basterd was not a noble man and most of > the time they didn't have any part of the inheritance of their father. > This is probably the reason for some of the Van Arnhem family-branches > in the Netherlands (in one instance I'm quite sure of it). > > Thanks for your honest questions and the open mind to research all > possibilities. > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > Op 12-10-2010 9:01, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Holland resource (stolen boots) (Susan Claggett) >> 2. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem > (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) >> 3. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem > (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:18:22 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<7A5B48FA93374597B1B226F7B1FAA5C1@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> I love all of this background information Pete. It really adds > personality >> to our search. >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters > was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch > provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks > and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way > of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:57:09 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<0FC16FEA77E7406AB712B28DB834FB22@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem > (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Regards, >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters > was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch > provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks > and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way > of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:25:30 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<B2D6AC5010D84FF1B6DDCE59A56C9B38@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem > (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C >> > <http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Di >> > rcksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum= >> 1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false> >> > &pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dircksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi >> =book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> >> P.S. I am having trouble getting this to go through to the list. If it >> duplicates I apologize. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 148 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >