I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next several pages especially 244. http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false Regards, Susan Van Orman Claggett -----Original Message----- From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was his wife. Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church --------------. While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's the last record of them I can find. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Is this the gossiping case? http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up (1st paragraph) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened > on > Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > ----------- > There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, > again, for gossiping. > > After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > I don't know. > > Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > > Pete, is this our Sarah? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > > (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >> is our Sara. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>> >>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >> lists >>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >> WIC. >>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>> >>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>> for >>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >> in >>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>> qualities. >>> >>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >> record >>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>> >>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >> occupation, >>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>> >>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >> possibly >>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >> they >>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>> -------- >>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >> Aside >>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >> Sara, >>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >> one >>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>> >>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>> >>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>> somewhat >>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >> of >>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >> or >>> some sort of cousin. >>> >>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>> I >>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>> Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Very interesting - all of it. The incident, the pertenance of "brother-in-law" and the book itself. I wonder what the source of it was... Are the original (that is translated and transcribed "original") records available? On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Regards, > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I've got a few minutes. Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. Calling Jan Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, one he simply jumped to. (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, just for starters.) The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about these old books. First, they can be wrong. In this case the part about Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on Riker's part. That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) remarried and moved to Boston. I worked this out three or four years ago with help from the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be good for everyone to visit. However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to info no longer available. I can't find the will or any reference to it other than this one. Neither can researchers better than I. Apparently it existed once upon a time but now it's gone. Dang! There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. Whether this is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to determine,however. Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem > (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Regards, > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters > was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch > provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks > and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>> Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>> of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>> long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>> sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>> brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>> research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, 1686. Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this timeframe and location? I have never searched for wills before and really don't know how to find them. The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen seems like it was a known fact. We also see the interaction of these same people in the church documents. I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. It fits together nicely IMO. I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very interesting and informative: 1. [PDF] THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals I've got a few minutes. Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. Calling Jan Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, one he simply jumped to. (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, just for starters.) The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about these old books. First, they can be wrong. In this case the part about Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on Riker's part. That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) remarried and moved to Boston. I worked this out three or four years ago with help from the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be good for everyone to visit. However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to info no longer available. I can't find the will or any reference to it other than this one. Neither can researchers better than I. Apparently it existed once upon a time but now it's gone. Dang! There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. Whether this is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to determine,however. Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem > (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Regards, > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters > was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch > provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks > and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>> Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>> of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>> long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>> sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>> brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>> research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but I would think generally they would be found in the probate court records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, > 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this > timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really > don't know how to find them. > > The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same > people in the church documents. > > I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits > together nicely IMO. > > I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > interesting and informative: > 1.     [PDF] > > THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I've got a few minutes. > > Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan > Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, > one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, > just for starters.) > > The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about > Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on > Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and > moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from > the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be > good for everyone to visit. > > However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to > info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it > other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it > existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! > > There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families > > with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this > > is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > determine,however. > > Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah > Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original > settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > >>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >> (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Regards, >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >> so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >> was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >> provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >> and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>> Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>> of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>> long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>> sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>> brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>> research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of Memoria. http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2Exml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, >> 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this >> timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really >> don't know how to find them. >> >> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen >> seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same >> people in the church documents. >> >> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits >> together nicely IMO. >> >> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very >> interesting and informative: >> 1.     [PDF] >> >> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> >> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> I've got a few minutes. >> >> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan >> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, >> one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, >> just for starters.) >> >> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about >> these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about >> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on >> Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of >> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and >> moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from >> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be >> good for everyone to visit. >> >> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to >> info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it >> other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it >> existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! >> >> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families >> >> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this >> >> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to >> determine,however. >> >> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah >> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original >> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> >>>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >>> (City >>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>> several pages especially 244. >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>> >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >>> so >>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >>> was >>> >>> his wife. >>> >>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >>> provinces >>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>> --------------. >>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >>> and >>> >>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>> the last record of them I can find. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> Is this the gossiping case? >>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>> (1st paragraph) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>> on >>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>> ----------- >>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>>> again, for gossiping. >>>> >>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>> >>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>> >>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>>> is our Sara. >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>> >>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>> lists >>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>>> WIC. >>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>> for >>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>> Neither >>>>> in >>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>> qualities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>> record >>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>> occupation, >>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>> of >>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>> possibly >>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>> they >>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>> Aside >>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>> Sara, >>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>> long >>>>> one >>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>> >>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>> somewhat >>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>> brother >>>>> or >>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>> research >>>>>> I >>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >

Look in the catalog of the lds family history library. Many wills are on microfilm there Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com Sender: vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:09:38 To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but I would think generally they would be found in the probate court records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, > 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this > timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really > don't know how to find them. > > The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same > people in the church documents. > > I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits > together nicely IMO. > > I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > interesting and informative: > 1.     [PDF] > > THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I've got a few minutes. > > Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan > Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, > one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, > just for starters.) > > The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about > Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on > Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and > moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from > the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be > good for everyone to visit. > > However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to > info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it > other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it > existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! > > There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families > > with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this > > is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > determine,however. > > Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah > Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original > settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > >>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >> (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Regards, >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >> so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >> was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >> provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >> and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>> Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>> of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>> long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>> sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>> brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>> research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I don't see any research staff listed. "Ask-a-Librarian staff provide brief answers to factual questions" (no opinion questions). I don't think this would qualify as a "brief answer" (unless, of course, the answer is "I don't know," or the always pertinant "42"), but (718) 990-0770. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 5:19 PM, <dragonshelver@yahoo.com> wrote: > Look in the catalog of the lds family history library. Many wills are on microfilm there > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Sender: vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:09:38 > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Reply-To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >  inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, >> 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this >> timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really >> don't know how to find them. >> >> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen >> seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same >> people in the church documents. >> >> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits >> together nicely IMO. >> >> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very >> interesting and informative: >> 1.     [PDF] >> >> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> >> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> I've got a few minutes. >> >> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan >> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, >> one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, >> just for starters.) >> >> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about >> these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about >> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on >> Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of >> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and >> moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from >> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be >> good for everyone to visit. >> >> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to >> info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it >> other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it >> existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! >> >> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families >> >> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this >> >> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to >> determine,however. >> >> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah >> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original >> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> >>>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >>> (City >>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>> several pages especially 244. >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>> >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >>> so >>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >>> was >>> >>> his wife. >>> >>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >>> provinces >>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>> --------------. >>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >>> and >>> >>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>> the last record of them I can find. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> Is this the gossiping case? >>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>> (1st paragraph) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>> on >>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>> ----------- >>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>>> again, for gossiping. >>>> >>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>> >>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>> >>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>>> is our Sara. >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>> >>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>> lists >>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>>> WIC. >>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>> for >>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>> Neither >>>>> in >>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>> qualities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>> record >>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>> occupation, >>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>> of >>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>> possibly >>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>> they >>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>> Aside >>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>> Sara, >>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>> long >>>>> one >>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>> >>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>> somewhat >>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>> brother >>>>> or >>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>> research >>>>>> I >>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >