FYI Mary died Apr 11, 1895, in Waltham, MA. This record identifies her husband Abram and her father Joel Lull, her birthplace Windsor, VT, age at death 86y 9m 24d. Record attached to the Van Norman Family Tree on Ancestry.com.

I have a transcribed copy of the will, and a scanned copy of the surrogate record if anyone is interested please contact me at arkretired@hotmail.com Arlene > Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:56:22 -0400 > From: schwel@comcast.net > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Will of Joseph VanNorman (abstract) > > FYI: > Will of Joseph Van Norman, abstract on AmericanAncestors.org > http://www.americanancestors.org/PageDetail.aspx?recordId=571039 > > to wife Elizabeth VanNorman > ch'n Ephraim, Isaac, Daniel, John, Jesse, Aaron, Susannah > to my son Levi, Benjamin > to Sarah Owen and Luman Munson & Lacy Munson the share my dau Anna would > have had had she lived > to my dau Sarah Fleming > Appt my son Isaac VanNorman to be exr [?executor?] > ~ to my four grandchildren to wit, Oliver Brown, Sarah Owen, Susan Munson & > Lacy Munson > 7 Sept 1810 signed Joseph Van Norman (his seal) > Witnesses: Moses Bissel, Johnathan Mack, Mary Compton > 13 April 1824 will of Joseph Van Norman, dec'd. > > Linda Schwenn > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

FYI AmericanAncestors.org has this listing in their Massachusetts Vital Records 1841-1910 database: #706, 10 April 1867, Boston, MA: Edward B. Van Norman, age 22, salesman, b Plattsburgh, NY, m Emma F. Smith, age 21, b Boston. Groom's parents: Isaac and Julia. Bride's parents: Martin and Caroline O. First marriage for both. By Rev. Albinus O. Hamilton, Boston. Residence at time of marriage: Boston for both. 1870 Emma F. Van Naunam age 24 is living with Martin and Caroline Smith, Boston Ward 1, Suffolk, MA. No Edward. 1880 Emma F. Norman 31 dau, widow, living with Martin H. and Caroline O. Smith, District 584, Boston, Suffolk, MA. Linda Schwenn

In addition to the very helpful information Stephen Wood posted: Three separate entries for an abstract of William's will, guardianships, and probate, are on the AmericanAncestors.org website in the Abstracts of Wills, Admins. and Guardianships in NY State, 1787-1835 database. FYI: There are a couple name discrepancies I found in the guardianships: James Master and Isaac Giltner are named as guardians of minor children. Linda Schwenn

FYI: Will of Joseph Van Norman, abstract on AmericanAncestors.org http://www.americanancestors.org/PageDetail.aspx?recordId=571039 to wife Elizabeth VanNorman ch'n Ephraim, Isaac, Daniel, John, Jesse, Aaron, Susannah to my son Levi, Benjamin to Sarah Owen and Luman Munson & Lacy Munson the share my dau Anna would have had had she lived to my dau Sarah Fleming Appt my son Isaac VanNorman to be exr [?executor?] ~ to my four grandchildren to wit, Oliver Brown, Sarah Owen, Susan Munson & Lacy Munson 7 Sept 1810 signed Joseph Van Norman (his seal) Witnesses: Moses Bissel, Johnathan Mack, Mary Compton 13 April 1824 will of Joseph Van Norman, dec'd. Linda Schwenn

How exciting! I guess you have to be a paid member to see the page. Linda could you search on Isaac Van(N)Orman for me? My records indicate he was born in 1794 NY and he was married to Cynthia Hatch. I am hoping to prove that he was a son of Isaac and Hannah Brown VanNorman. Thanks! Susan -----Original Message----- From: Linda Schwenn [mailto:schwel@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 1:56 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: [VANNORMAN] Will of Joseph VanNorman (abstract) FYI: Will of Joseph Van Norman, abstract on AmericanAncestors.org http://www.americanancestors.org/PageDetail.aspx?recordId=571039 to wife Elizabeth VanNorman ch'n Ephraim, Isaac, Daniel, John, Jesse, Aaron, Susannah to my son Levi, Benjamin to Sarah Owen and Luman Munson & Lacy Munson the share my dau Anna would have had had she lived to my dau Sarah Fleming Appt my son Isaac VanNorman to be exr [?executor?] ~ to my four grandchildren to wit, Oliver Brown, Sarah Owen, Susan Munson & Lacy Munson 7 Sept 1810 signed Joseph Van Norman (his seal) Witnesses: Moses Bissel, Johnathan Mack, Mary Compton 13 April 1824 will of Joseph Van Norman, dec'd. Linda Schwenn ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

An image of the will (or handwritten abstract from the Poughkeepsie Journal 1803) of Peter Payn of Plattsburgh, Clinton, Co., NY, apparently written 1792 and probated 1803??, is found on the new NEGS website AmericanAncestors.org. Database: About Abstracts of Wills, Admins. and Guardianships in NY State, 1787-1835. Wills: Plattsburg, NY. Date: Willsboro 16 Aug 1792 Names mentioned: Wife: Comfurt Sons: Nehemiah, Peter, Samuel, Joseph Daughters: Sarah Vanornam, Deborah Singer/ Deborah Hunsinger, Anne Cooper, Mary Danels, Dorothy Payn Grandson: Peter Singer/Hunsinger Signatures: Peter Payn, Hester Cuyler, John Moehouse, Jr., and William McAuley. If you see something in the document that should append or correct this information, I hope you will add it to this record. Associated names 1790 Wellsburgh, Clinton, NY, census all on the same page: Mathew Morehouse 121 (sp may be different, handwriting difficult to read) John Morehouse 1 John Morehouse, Jr. 123 Jeremiah Daniels 122 William M. McAuley 112 Peter Pain 112 Nehemiah Pain 1-1 Luke V:Arnum 233 Peter Pain, Jr. 113 Linda Schwenn

Wow Linda that is very exciting! Thanks so much for your efforts. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Linda Schwenn [mailto:schwel@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 1:03 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: [VANNORMAN] Sarah Payn Vanornam--will of Peter Payn, Plattsburgh,Clinton, NY An image of the will (or handwritten abstract from the Poughkeepsie Journal 1803) of Peter Payn of Plattsburgh, Clinton, Co., NY, apparently written 1792 and probated 1803??, is found on the new NEGS website AmericanAncestors.org. Database: About Abstracts of Wills, Admins. and Guardianships in NY State, 1787-1835. Wills: Plattsburg, NY. Date: Willsboro 16 Aug 1792 Names mentioned: Wife: Comfurt Sons: Nehemiah, Peter, Samuel, Joseph Daughters: Sarah Vanornam, Deborah Singer/ Deborah Hunsinger, Anne Cooper, Mary Danels, Dorothy Payn Grandson: Peter Singer/Hunsinger Signatures: Peter Payn, Hester Cuyler, John Moehouse, Jr., and William McAuley. If you see something in the document that should append or correct this information, I hope you will add it to this record. Associated names 1790 Wellsburgh, Clinton, NY, census all on the same page: Mathew Morehouse 121 (sp may be different, handwriting difficult to read) John Morehouse 1 John Morehouse, Jr. 123 Jeremiah Daniels 122 William M. McAuley 112 Peter Pain 112 Nehemiah Pain 1-1 Luke V:Arnum 233 Peter Pain, Jr. 113 Linda Schwenn ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am looking for infomation- decendents of George Oliver and Marvel Tracy McGivern Merton. George is the son of Ella Estelle (Daisy) Van Norman Merton, daughter of Oliver Augustus Van Norman. George wrote a letter to Evelyn Mc Laren in 1962 speaking about having a bible that belong to his Uncle Pierson. Arlene Van Norman Reeves

I recently found a census with Wesley "adopted son". I didn't realize that was part of the old census records. Any on know who this is? I'm wondering if maybe Nellie is his real mother and he was adopted by her husband Louis Maurice. He is on the 1910 with Louis and Nellie and 1930 census with a wife Clara & son Robert 6/12. Arlene Name: Wesley Maurice [Wesley Vannorman] Home in 1920: Chicago Ward 33, Cook (Chicago), Illinois Age: 20 Estimated birth year: abt 1900 Birthplace: Wisconsin Relation to Head of House: Adopted Son Father's Birth Place: Wisconsin Mother's Birth Place: New York Marital Status: Single Race: White Sex: Male Able to read: Yes Able to Write: Yes Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Nellie Maurice 49 Wesley Maurice 20

Hi Everyone! Just a quick note to let you know that the most recent excel file of our project "Early Van Norman Census Returns" is now up on Sherri's Van Norman website - http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vnfa/census.html - and is available to download. A few corrections have been entered and additions have been made to this compared to previous versions, including a few early Canadian [Ontario] entries. As well I have started to identify known Ancestral Family Lines - i.e. VA for the Van Arnam (etc.) lines from New York & VN for the Van Norman (etc.) lines from the Smithfield, Pennsylvania area. See the "Notes" section for additional explanations. As always, the list has not been double-checked, so use it with caution. If you know of any additions or corrections, or can match up an entry to a certain family, please let me know so I can update the list. Information on female lines would also be appreciated, or if anyone has access to or entries of some of the surviving State census returns (especially NY), please send it along as well. I believe if we can sort out many of these early census returns, we will have a much better chance of linking up more of the early Van Norman families and strays, to help us build a more complete set of family trees! Thanks, Stephen P.S. We hope to do this with later census returns as well, but I've been sidetracked lately with other issues and haven't pursued it as vigorously as I had intended. It is in the planning stages however..... SW

The region we are talking about is approximately correct for the Anabaptists. Anabaptists, like present day Baptists and many other Protestant denominations, believed in baptism only upon a "profession of faith". If Sara and Jan were of the Anabaptist persuasion and 8-10 year gap between birth and baptism becomes very understandable. E B Leifer He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act Justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8 (NIV) -----Original Message----- From: vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Alan Jacobs Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 2:11 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Pim VanArnhem Genealogy WOW!!!!  Thanks Pete! Beverley Jacobs ________________________________ From: Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 5:50:41 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Pim VanArnhem Genealogy For Sandy--Remember that Sara and Jan Dircks were married in 1664 (and had a child only a few months later).  Unless you can think of a plausible reason for an eight or ten-year delay after birth, this Sara Teunis baptized in 1654 isn't ours. For Arlene--It's not so much what I know about Jan Dircks and Sara as what I know is wrong and a lot of stuff I'm pretty sure of but will never be able to prove. Briefly (I've had a major computer crash since I did the work and my scrawled notes are in a box in the garage somewhere): Our Sara Theunis is probably the one who arrived on De Trouw in 1664. The timing's right and another of the known passengers on DeTrauw was present at the baptism of the second (?) of Sara's children.  Awfully coincidental if it was some other Sara Theunis.  I think there are only seven know passengers in the first place. There's no manifest for De Trouw but it's my belief Jan Dircks was aboard it, too.  I can explain why he might have been, perhaps even ought to have been.  In any event, based on daughter Dirckje's baptism, Sara was already pregnant when De Trouw entered the harbor.  If Jan Dircks wasn't aboard the ship to do the deed we have to start down some pretty unlikely paths of supposition to accommodate the actual record. The first undisputable record is Sara's marriage to Jan Dircks from Arnhem, "soldier", a couple of months after the ship arrived. Jan Dircks, a soldier, got in trouble over possession of a pair of supposedly stolen boots.  He was let off for being stupid. The Dutch handed New Amsterdam over to the Brits without firing a shot.  Any soldiers that wanted to stay could do so and were promised a chunk of  land. I can't find any record Jan Dircks ever received any, though. Sara had Dirckje and she was baptised.  Witness was the wife of Jan Myers, ex-soldier whose home was right next to the fort. Jan Dircks and Sara for no apparent reason turn up the next year in Nieuw Harlem.  Sara Theunis gets in trouble for gossipping.  With her at the time is the wife of Jan Theunis (later Van Tilburg).  Jan Dircks complains somebody stole a blanket out of a chest in his home.  Jan Theunis is familiar enough with Jan Dircks and Sara's house to claim the chest was empty to start with. Ryker calls Jan Theunis Jan Dircks' "brother-in-law" but that seems to have been his own conclusion. That's undercut in the footnotes when he confuses this Jan Theunis with another one in New Amstel.  Even so, the New Harlem Jan Theunis and our progenitors seem to have been closely associated and the "Theunis" part is certainly tempting.  I think he was some sort of relative to Sara.  Conceivably even her father. (Someone named Jan Theunis earlier had a lot of connections that sort of lead to the early Switz's.  Even earlier there's a drunkard "carpenter from Leyden" who might have been named Jan Theunis who left a wife and at least two children behind in the Netherlands.  There are possible connections from him to a whole swarm of Schenectady families that show up later on.) Jan Dircks leases some land for three years at Maspeth Kil in Brooklyn. (Jan Theunis probably had a lease nearby.)  The Maspeth Kil farms are generally reported to have been poor ones. Back to Harlem.  The rest of the known kids are born.  The last appearance of Jan Dircks in any record I can find is a Harlem tax record for 1682. That's late in the period when everybody who first settled in Harlem sold out and went somewhere else.  Accounts say the Harlem farms were pretty crummy, too. Nothing on the family until the kids start to marry a dozen years later. Based on the marriages it looks as if the (now surnamed) Van Arnhems were located somewhere close to Thomas Eckerson's farm.  He was located about where present-day Gramercy Park is in New York City. In 1714 "Sara Van Arnhem", "widow", petitioned for some land near the Eckerson farm.  I can't tell if this is Sara Theunis or her deceased son Abraham's wife Sara Eckerson.  My guess is the latter but it's basically a coin flip. Circumstancial evidence puts Jan Jansz Van Arnhem  who married Hester Fonda somwhere around present-day Cohoes north of Albany in the mid-1690's.  His son Abraham seems to have been located there until at least the late 1760's. At about that time the NYC Van Arnhem lines appear to have moved to the Albany area but I don't know why.  There are clear records of two of the families and traces of two others ion the area later. ---------- Besides the Eckersons there's one other thing that pops out in the earliest Van Arnhem baptismal records.  Jan Dircks and Sara never appeared as getuygen/godparents/witnesses at the baptisms of any of their apparent friends (or kids, assuming they lived that long).  Turns out there was a doctrine that you had to be part of "the body of the church", born into it, to do so.  I don't know how carefully this restriction was observed. If Jan Dircks and Sara weren't Dutch Reformed, that could explain their absence nicely and it's one of the reasons I suspect Jan Dircks' supposed descent based on a Dutch baptismal record.  (The other is the names aren't right; some of the parental and sibling names show up among the Van Arnhems but several others don't. Ever.) Another funny thing is "Theunis" never shows up as a Van Arnhem given name. (Or in the Van Tilburgs, either.)  I think Theunis might have been a bona fide surname rather than just Sara's patronymic.  "Dirckje" never shows up again, either.... ---------- Almost all of the above can be found in online versions of primary records, mostly in Google Books, none very obscure.  Sorry, it took about 10 years to put together and I don't have time to reduplicate it right now.  Heck, I'm late for a meeting right now. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <sandravanorman@comcast.net> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:34 PM Subject: [VANNORMAN] Pim VanArnhem Genealogy > > > Hello, > > > > I have read the latest newsletter with interest, regarding the VanArnhem > genealogy by Pim VanArnhem, and I too made the mistake of assuming because > it is on the internet it must be correct. > > However, while searching the parents of Sara Tuenis I ran across > conflicting information regarding Sara and Tuenis (The Turk) Van Salee as > her possible father. While it would be great to have a pirate in the > family, facts are facts and there's no way he could be her father. > > > > It is unfortunate Pim has lead many of us VanArnhems, VanOrnams, etc. down > the wrong path. However, before we get out the tar and feathers, we should > take responsibilty for our own mistakes in not verifying the data he > presented. According to my records, all of the descendants of Jan Dirkz, > their names, dates, etc are correct. > > And I had this information before I found the VanArnhem genealogy on the > internet. I'm also thinking that Pim is correct in stating Dirkz Arnhem is > Jan Dirkz father. > > > > I'd like to thank Pim (love the name!) VanArnhem for putting his genealogy > on the internet. It is up to us as genealogists to check the facts for > ourselves. > > > > As for Sara Tuenis, I recently received some information from a person in > the Netherlands with the following data: > > > > Child: Sara > > Father: Teunis Jacobsz Nieulandt > > Mother: Nelletge Pieters > > Sponsors: Maertgen Philips > > Neeltgen Teunis > > Jan Janz > > Town: Rotterdam > > Date baptism: 9 Sept. 1654 > > Source: DTB Rotterdam inv. 29 Doop remonstrants ( A "light" kind of > Protestantism) > > > > This could very well be "our" Sara Teunis. > > > > Sandy VanOrman > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello all, It is endlessly fascinating reading about our favorite couple, Janz Dirkz and Sara Tuenis. And Pete, I think it is quite plausible for there to be an 8-10 year wait after birth for a person to be baptised. My 2nd great grandfather, Daniel D. VanOrnam was born in 1808 but wasn't baptised until 1830. So I'm sticking with the 1654 birth date for Sara.....for now. As for Sara being listed on the DeTroux, someone from Olive Tree told me there were no passenger lists per se, just a list of persons who still owed for their passage to America. I feel Janz was a paying passenger and Sara wasn't, which is why her name is listed and his isn't. Pete- who is this Ryker that you mention in reference to Jan Dirkz and Sara and the VanArnhem family? Did he write a book about them? I enjoy reading the little side line pieces of information about the VanArmhems... it makes them seem more like real people than just wispy figures of our kin who lived more than 300 years ago. Sandy

WOW!!!!  Thanks Pete! Beverley Jacobs ________________________________ From: Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 5:50:41 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Pim VanArnhem Genealogy For Sandy--Remember that Sara and Jan Dircks were married in 1664 (and had a child only a few months later).  Unless you can think of a plausible reason for an eight or ten-year delay after birth, this Sara Teunis baptized in 1654 isn't ours. For Arlene--It's not so much what I know about Jan Dircks and Sara as what I know is wrong and a lot of stuff I'm pretty sure of but will never be able to prove. Briefly (I've had a major computer crash since I did the work and my scrawled notes are in a box in the garage somewhere): Our Sara Theunis is probably the one who arrived on De Trouw in 1664. The timing's right and another of the known passengers on DeTrauw was present at the baptism of the second (?) of Sara's children.  Awfully coincidental if it was some other Sara Theunis.  I think there are only seven know passengers in the first place. There's no manifest for De Trouw but it's my belief Jan Dircks was aboard it, too.  I can explain why he might have been, perhaps even ought to have been.  In any event, based on daughter Dirckje's baptism, Sara was already pregnant when De Trouw entered the harbor.  If Jan Dircks wasn't aboard the ship to do the deed we have to start down some pretty unlikely paths of supposition to accommodate the actual record. The first undisputable record is Sara's marriage to Jan Dircks from Arnhem, "soldier", a couple of months after the ship arrived. Jan Dircks, a soldier, got in trouble over possession of a pair of supposedly stolen boots.  He was let off for being stupid. The Dutch handed New Amsterdam over to the Brits without firing a shot.  Any soldiers that wanted to stay could do so and were promised a chunk of  land. I can't find any record Jan Dircks ever received any, though. Sara had Dirckje and she was baptised.  Witness was the wife of Jan Myers, ex-soldier whose home was right next to the fort. Jan Dircks and Sara for no apparent reason turn up the next year in Nieuw Harlem.  Sara Theunis gets in trouble for gossipping.  With her at the time is the wife of Jan Theunis (later Van Tilburg).  Jan Dircks complains somebody stole a blanket out of a chest in his home.  Jan Theunis is familiar enough with Jan Dircks and Sara's house to claim the chest was empty to start with. Ryker calls Jan Theunis Jan Dircks' "brother-in-law" but that seems to have been his own conclusion. That's undercut in the footnotes when he confuses this Jan Theunis with another one in New Amstel.  Even so, the New Harlem Jan Theunis and our progenitors seem to have been closely associated and the "Theunis" part is certainly tempting.  I think he was some sort of relative to Sara.  Conceivably even her father. (Someone named Jan Theunis earlier had a lot of connections that sort of lead to the early Switz's.  Even earlier there's a drunkard "carpenter from Leyden" who might have been named Jan Theunis who left a wife and at least two children behind in the Netherlands.  There are possible connections from him to a whole swarm of Schenectady families that show up later on.) Jan Dircks leases some land for three years at Maspeth Kil in Brooklyn. (Jan Theunis probably had a lease nearby.)  The Maspeth Kil farms are generally reported to have been poor ones. Back to Harlem.  The rest of the known kids are born.  The last appearance of Jan Dircks in any record I can find is a Harlem tax record for 1682. That's late in the period when everybody who first settled in Harlem sold out and went somewhere else.  Accounts say the Harlem farms were pretty crummy, too. Nothing on the family until the kids start to marry a dozen years later. Based on the marriages it looks as if the (now surnamed) Van Arnhems were located somewhere close to Thomas Eckerson's farm.  He was located about where present-day Gramercy Park is in New York City. In 1714 "Sara Van Arnhem", "widow", petitioned for some land near the Eckerson farm.  I can't tell if this is Sara Theunis or her deceased son Abraham's wife Sara Eckerson.  My guess is the latter but it's basically a coin flip. Circumstancial evidence puts Jan Jansz Van Arnhem  who married Hester Fonda somwhere around present-day Cohoes north of Albany in the mid-1690's.  His son Abraham seems to have been located there until at least the late 1760's. At about that time the NYC Van Arnhem lines appear to have moved to the Albany area but I don't know why.  There are clear records of two of the families and traces of two others ion the area later. ---------- Besides the Eckersons there's one other thing that pops out in the earliest Van Arnhem baptismal records.  Jan Dircks and Sara never appeared as getuygen/godparents/witnesses at the baptisms of any of their apparent friends (or kids, assuming they lived that long).  Turns out there was a doctrine that you had to be part of "the body of the church", born into it, to do so.  I don't know how carefully this restriction was observed. If Jan Dircks and Sara weren't Dutch Reformed, that could explain their absence nicely and it's one of the reasons I suspect Jan Dircks' supposed descent based on a Dutch baptismal record.  (The other is the names aren't right; some of the parental and sibling names show up among the Van Arnhems but several others don't. Ever.) Another funny thing is "Theunis" never shows up as a Van Arnhem given name. (Or in the Van Tilburgs, either.)  I think Theunis might have been a bona fide surname rather than just Sara's patronymic.  "Dirckje" never shows up again, either.... ---------- Almost all of the above can be found in online versions of primary records, mostly in Google Books, none very obscure.  Sorry, it took about 10 years to put together and I don't have time to reduplicate it right now.  Heck, I'm late for a meeting right now. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <sandravanorman@comcast.net> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:34 PM Subject: [VANNORMAN] Pim VanArnhem Genealogy > > > Hello, > > > > I have read the latest newsletter with interest, regarding the VanArnhem > genealogy by Pim VanArnhem, and I too made the mistake of assuming because > it is on the internet it must be correct. > > However, while searching the parents of Sara Tuenis I ran across > conflicting information regarding Sara and Tuenis (The Turk) Van Salee as > her possible father. While it would be great to have a pirate in the > family, facts are facts and there's no way he could be her father. > > > > It is unfortunate Pim has lead many of us VanArnhems, VanOrnams, etc. down > the wrong path. However, before we get out the tar and feathers, we should > take responsibilty for our own mistakes in not verifying the data he > presented. According to my records, all of the descendants of Jan Dirkz, > their names, dates, etc are correct. > > And I had this information before I found the VanArnhem genealogy on the > internet. I'm also thinking that Pim is correct in stating Dirkz Arnhem is > Jan Dirkz father. > > > > I'd like to thank Pim (love the name!) VanArnhem for putting his genealogy > on the internet. It is up to us as genealogists to check the facts for > ourselves. > > > > As for Sara Tuenis, I recently received some information from a person in > the Netherlands with the following data: > > > > Child: Sara > > Father: Teunis Jacobsz Nieulandt > > Mother: Nelletge Pieters > > Sponsors: Maertgen Philips > > Neeltgen Teunis > > Jan Janz > > Town: Rotterdam > > Date baptism: 9 Sept. 1654 > > Source: DTB Rotterdam inv. 29 Doop remonstrants ( A "light" kind of > Protestantism) > > > > This could very well be "our" Sara Teunis. > > > > Sandy VanOrman > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, I have read the latest newsletter with interest, regarding the VanArnhem genealogy by Pim VanArnhem, and I too made the mistake of assuming because it is on the internet it must be correct. However, while searching the parents of Sara Tuenis I ran across conflicting information regarding Sara and Tuenis (The Turk) Van Salee as her possible father.  While it would be great to have a pirate in the family, facts are facts and there's no way he could be her father. It is unfortunate Pim has lead many of us VanArnhems, VanOrnams, etc. down the wrong path. However, before we get out the tar and feathers, we should take responsibilty for our own mistakes in not verifying the data he presented. According to my records, all of the descendants of Jan Dirkz, their names, dates, etc are correct. And I had this information before I found the VanArnhem genealogy on the internet.  I'm also thinking that Pim is correct in stating Dirkz Arnhem is Jan Dirkz father. I'd like to thank Pim (love the name!) VanArnhem for putting his genealogy on the internet. It is up to us as genealogists to check the facts for ourselves. As for Sara Tuenis, I recently received some information from a person in the Netherlands with the following data: Child: Sara Father: Teunis Jacobsz Nieulandt Mother: Nelletge Pieters Sponsors: Maertgen Philips                    Neeltgen Teunis                    Jan Janz Town: Rotterdam Date baptism: 9 Sept. 1654 Source: DTB Rotterdam inv. 29 Doop remonstrants ( A "light" kind of Protestantism) This could very well be "our" Sara Teunis. Sandy VanOrman

For Sandy--Remember that Sara and Jan Dircks were married in 1664 (and had a child only a few months later). Unless you can think of a plausible reason for an eight or ten-year delay after birth, this Sara Teunis baptized in 1654 isn't ours. For Arlene--It's not so much what I know about Jan Dircks and Sara as what I know is wrong and a lot of stuff I'm pretty sure of but will never be able to prove. Briefly (I've had a major computer crash since I did the work and my scrawled notes are in a box in the garage somewhere): Our Sara Theunis is probably the one who arrived on De Trouw in 1664. The timing's right and another of the known passengers on DeTrauw was present at the baptism of the second (?) of Sara's children. Awfully coincidental if it was some other Sara Theunis. I think there are only seven know passengers in the first place. There's no manifest for De Trouw but it's my belief Jan Dircks was aboard it, too. I can explain why he might have been, perhaps even ought to have been. In any event, based on daughter Dirckje's baptism, Sara was already pregnant when De Trouw entered the harbor. If Jan Dircks wasn't aboard the ship to do the deed we have to start down some pretty unlikely paths of supposition to accommodate the actual record. The first undisputable record is Sara's marriage to Jan Dircks from Arnhem, "soldier", a couple of months after the ship arrived. Jan Dircks, a soldier, got in trouble over possession of a pair of supposedly stolen boots. He was let off for being stupid. The Dutch handed New Amsterdam over to the Brits without firing a shot. Any soldiers that wanted to stay could do so and were promised a chunk of land. I can't find any record Jan Dircks ever received any, though. Sara had Dirckje and she was baptised. Witness was the wife of Jan Myers, ex-soldier whose home was right next to the fort. Jan Dircks and Sara for no apparent reason turn up the next year in Nieuw Harlem. Sara Theunis gets in trouble for gossipping. With her at the time is the wife of Jan Theunis (later Van Tilburg). Jan Dircks complains somebody stole a blanket out of a chest in his home. Jan Theunis is familiar enough with Jan Dircks and Sara's house to claim the chest was empty to start with. Ryker calls Jan Theunis Jan Dircks' "brother-in-law" but that seems to have been his own conclusion. That's undercut in the footnotes when he confuses this Jan Theunis with another one in New Amstel. Even so, the New Harlem Jan Theunis and our progenitors seem to have been closely associated and the "Theunis" part is certainly tempting. I think he was some sort of relative to Sara. Conceivably even her father. (Someone named Jan Theunis earlier had a lot of connections that sort of lead to the early Switz's. Even earlier there's a drunkard "carpenter from Leyden" who might have been named Jan Theunis who left a wife and at least two children behind in the Netherlands. There are possible connections from him to a whole swarm of Schenectady families that show up later on.) Jan Dircks leases some land for three years at Maspeth Kil in Brooklyn. (Jan Theunis probably had a lease nearby.) The Maspeth Kil farms are generally reported to have been poor ones. Back to Harlem. The rest of the known kids are born. The last appearance of Jan Dircks in any record I can find is a Harlem tax record for 1682. That's late in the period when everybody who first settled in Harlem sold out and went somewhere else. Accounts say the Harlem farms were pretty crummy, too. Nothing on the family until the kids start to marry a dozen years later. Based on the marriages it looks as if the (now surnamed) Van Arnhems were located somewhere close to Thomas Eckerson's farm. He was located about where present-day Gramercy Park is in New York City. In 1714 "Sara Van Arnhem", "widow", petitioned for some land near the Eckerson farm. I can't tell if this is Sara Theunis or her deceased son Abraham's wife Sara Eckerson. My guess is the latter but it's basically a coin flip. Circumstancial evidence puts Jan Jansz Van Arnhem who married Hester Fonda somwhere around present-day Cohoes north of Albany in the mid-1690's. His son Abraham seems to have been located there until at least the late 1760's. At about that time the NYC Van Arnhem lines appear to have moved to the Albany area but I don't know why. There are clear records of two of the families and traces of two others ion the area later. ---------- Besides the Eckersons there's one other thing that pops out in the earliest Van Arnhem baptismal records. Jan Dircks and Sara never appeared as getuygen/godparents/witnesses at the baptisms of any of their apparent friends (or kids, assuming they lived that long). Turns out there was a doctrine that you had to be part of "the body of the church", born into it, to do so. I don't know how carefully this restriction was observed. If Jan Dircks and Sara weren't Dutch Reformed, that could explain their absence nicely and it's one of the reasons I suspect Jan Dircks' supposed descent based on a Dutch baptismal record. (The other is the names aren't right; some of the parental and sibling names show up among the Van Arnhems but several others don't. Ever.) Another funny thing is "Theunis" never shows up as a Van Arnhem given name. (Or in the Van Tilburgs, either.) I think Theunis might have been a bona fide surname rather than just Sara's patronymic. "Dirckje" never shows up again, either.... ---------- Almost all of the above can be found in online versions of primary records, mostly in Google Books, none very obscure. Sorry, it took about 10 years to put together and I don't have time to reduplicate it right now. Heck, I'm late for a meeting right now. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <sandravanorman@comcast.net> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:34 PM Subject: [VANNORMAN] Pim VanArnhem Genealogy > > > Hello, > > > > I have read the latest newsletter with interest, regarding the VanArnhem > genealogy by Pim VanArnhem, and I too made the mistake of assuming because > it is on the internet it must be correct. > > However, while searching the parents of Sara Tuenis I ran across > conflicting information regarding Sara and Tuenis (The Turk) Van Salee as > her possible father. While it would be great to have a pirate in the > family, facts are facts and there's no way he could be her father. > > > > It is unfortunate Pim has lead many of us VanArnhems, VanOrnams, etc. down > the wrong path. However, before we get out the tar and feathers, we should > take responsibilty for our own mistakes in not verifying the data he > presented. According to my records, all of the descendants of Jan Dirkz, > their names, dates, etc are correct. > > And I had this information before I found the VanArnhem genealogy on the > internet. I'm also thinking that Pim is correct in stating Dirkz Arnhem is > Jan Dirkz father. > > > > I'd like to thank Pim (love the name!) VanArnhem for putting his genealogy > on the internet. It is up to us as genealogists to check the facts for > ourselves. > > > > As for Sara Tuenis, I recently received some information from a person in > the Netherlands with the following data: > > > > Child: Sara > > Father: Teunis Jacobsz Nieulandt > > Mother: Nelletge Pieters > > Sponsors: Maertgen Philips > > Neeltgen Teunis > > Jan Janz > > Town: Rotterdam > > Date baptism: 9 Sept. 1654 > > Source: DTB Rotterdam inv. 29 Doop remonstrants ( A "light" kind of > Protestantism) > > > > This could very well be "our" Sara Teunis. > > > > Sandy VanOrman > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Pete, I would appreciate hearing what you know about Jan Dircks and Sara Theunis. Thank you in advance! Arlene > From: gonigam@hotmail.com > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:28:37 -0500 > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 > > With respect to Arlene's comments: > > Yes, of course, there are errors not only in secondary source material but > even in primary records. I've found a previously unknown major Van Tilburg > error in History of Harlem and I, too, have a Van Arnam picture from 130 > years ago with a notation someone added on the back that's simply > impossible. > > I even agree with the adjuration that "we treat others research with > respect". I apologize to Pim if I hurt his feelings. However, the original > question was something like "is this stuff trustworthy" and the answer is > still "No," at least insofar as the line of Jan Dircks and Sara Theunis is > concerned. > > (Perhaps I should have emphasized that latter. I suspect there may be in > the U.S. a handful of "stray" Van Arnhems who descend from other lines. > I've stumbled over records of three much later immigrants from Holland > surnamed Van Arnhem. I never tried to follow them, though. Van Norman > surname is an entirely different nightmare, of course.) > > If that seems harsh it's because I outlined the problems with Pim's version > of our line to him two years ago. I never received a reply and it's all > still blazing on the Internet to lead people astray. Sure, we have to check > and doublecheck everything we find but guess how long it takes to figure out > Sara Theunis wasn't the daughter of Theunis Van Salee and never could have > been in the first place. How much time is the right amount to devote to > re-inventing the wheel? > > I view this instance as especially pernicious since Pim translated > unreliable U.S. material into Dutch which for American researchers endows it > with an accidental but nevertheless real aura of spurious authority. > > If for some reason Pim is really interested in the line of Jan Dircks and > Sara Theunis I will offer, once again, to work with him on several areas of > research that need to be done over there. > > --pete > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arlene Reeves" <arkretired@hotmail.com> > To: "vannorman rootsweb" <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:37 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 > > > > > > Hi ALL, > > > > I have heard so many times "don't trust what you find on the internet"! > > And that includes geneology info as well as medical advice, etc. I've > > also heard the "VanArnhem Family in North America" book has many mistakes. > > The internet and the book also have many accurate pieces of information. > > I know from experience there are errors in many documents, including > > official documents. I recently spoke with a village clerk who had birth > > certificate request from a women who had born 4 children - her birth > > certificate says she is a male, the clerk could not correct that info. > > She was applying for Social Security, what a mess she had. And my > > favorite story is a picture I have from my parents home with "Leon and his > > grandfather" written on the back. Leon Joseph Van Norman is my father, he > > was born May 22, 1905, his grandfather Oliver Augustus Van Norman died > > October 15, 1904. The pic can't be who it says! > > > > > > > > I have made many assumptions in my research and I'm sure we all know what > > assume means. I'm sure I have many errors in my personal Family Tree > > Maker program. All information is important and might lead to the > > accurate account of our heritage. > > > > > > > > Most important is that we treat others research with respect. That does > > not mean we can't challange or correct each other as we all need the help! > > > > Arlene > > > > PS: Do you think we should ask Pim if there is a living male in the family > > that would do the DNA test? > > > >> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:28:09 +0200 > >> From: wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 > >> > >> Hi people in the States, > >> > >> Like I have written in the past, I used the next sources for my > >> US-branch of the family Van Arnhem (and Pete I'm absolutely familiar > >> with the meaning of the name!!). Since I haven't had time to work > >> evidence of the sources on the US-branch, there has been no mail from > >> me. (My focus is on the Dutch-branches and those are all verified and > >> trustworthy). So for the US-branch on my site I used these sources: > >> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vnfa/families.html > >> http://gedcomindex.com/towns/nlge004.html > >> http://www.ristenbatt.com/genealogy > >> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=joanfran&id=I00239] > >> > >> If those Us-sources are not reliable, then you are right that my info is > >> indeed also not reliable. If you have more and/or better info, I'll be > >> glad to receive is. > >> Greetings from the Netherlands. > >> Pim van Arnhem > >> > >> Op 10-7-2010 9:02, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > >> > > >> > Today's Topics: > >> > > >> > 1. Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem (Susan Claggett) > >> > 2. Re: Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem (Pete Gonigam) > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > Message: 1 > >> > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:01:52 -0500 > >> > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > >> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> > Message-ID:<D0FDA67EDF7F4081AC24607EAC94627E@vantk1o0kgylz7> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> > > >> > Has anyone seen this website? And if so is the information believed to > >> > be > >> > accurate? Thanks > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Susan > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > http://home.xmsnet.nl/pimonline/tak-arnhem-VS.html > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > >> > > >> > The genealogy of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem begins in Arnhem , but already > >> > in the > >> > second generation son in January Dircksen travels from Arnhem to the > >> > United > >> > States of America . We are therefore faced with one branch primarily in > >> > the > >> > U.S. developed . > >> > > >> > Fascinating is the number of name changes: of Aernhem, of Aernam, > >> > d'Arenberg, Vanorman, of Aarnem, of Aernum, of ornamental, Vann Orman, > >> > by > >> > Arnam, of Arnum, of Ornum, Norman > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Message: 2 > >> > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 12:05:54 -0500 > >> > From: "Pete Gonigam"<gonigam@hotmail.com> > >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > >> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP5877106E60418C9CAD733FABB50@phx.gbl> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > >> > reply-type=original > >> > > >> > I hadn't seen his site but this guy popped up on the board a few times > >> > a > >> > couple of years ago all hot and bothered that he'd found "U.S. Van > >> > Arnhems". > >> > Even though he's Dutch it hadn't occurred to him that Van Arnhem just > >> > means > >> > "from Arnhem" and lotsa people were in the old days. (There was a Henry > >> > "from Arnhem" in Brooklyn 1742 or so who had no connection with our > >> > line; > >> > I've never figured out if he died or took a different surname.) Anyway, > >> > I > >> > told Pim I could suggest some fruitful lines of research to pursue in > >> > Netherlands if he wanted to research U.S. Van Arnhems but he never > >> > answered > >> > back. > >> > > >> > The site as far as U.S. Van Arnhems (etc.) is concerned is utterly > >> > unreliable. > >> > > >> > There's nothing other than "Van Arnhem" to connect our Jan Dircks with > >> > the > >> > parents listed on the site (and several reasons to think they're the > >> > wrong > >> > ones.) Jan Dirks wasn't on the "Broken Heart", rather (no records, only > >> > logic) "The Faith" with Sara Theunis. Sara was NOT the daughter of > >> > Theunis > >> > Van Sallee. (Records show that woman married someone else and died in > >> > Massachussets, I think.) Etc., etc., etc. > >> > > >> > I don't have a copy of it, but I think one way or another, this guy's > >> > site > >> > derives from "Van Arnhems in North America" which we've proved in many > >> > ways > >> > is itself unreliable. > >> > > >> > --pete > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 11:01 AM > >> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> Has anyone seen this website? And if so is the information believed to > >> >> be > >> >> accurate? Thanks > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Susan > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> http://home.xmsnet.nl/pimonline/tak-arnhem-VS.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > >> >> > >> >> The genealogy of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem begins in Arnhem , but already > >> >> in > >> >> the > >> >> second generation son in January Dircksen travels from Arnhem to the > >> >> United > >> >> States of America . We are therefore faced with one branch primarily > >> >> in > >> >> the > >> >> U.S. developed . > >> >> > >> >> Fascinating is the number of name changes: of Aernhem, of Aernam, > >> >> d'Arenberg, Vanorman, of Aarnem, of Aernum, of ornamental, Vann Orman, > >> >> by > >> >> Arnam, of Arnum, of Ornum, Norman > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > >> > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > >> > > >> > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > >> > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > >> > > >> > __________________________________________________________ > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > >> > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the > >> > body of the > >> > email with no additional text. > >> > > >> > > >> > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 > >> > **************************************** > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your > > inbox. > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5

With respect to Arlene's comments: Yes, of course, there are errors not only in secondary source material but even in primary records. I've found a previously unknown major Van Tilburg error in History of Harlem and I, too, have a Van Arnam picture from 130 years ago with a notation someone added on the back that's simply impossible. I even agree with the adjuration that "we treat others research with respect". I apologize to Pim if I hurt his feelings. However, the original question was something like "is this stuff trustworthy" and the answer is still "No," at least insofar as the line of Jan Dircks and Sara Theunis is concerned. (Perhaps I should have emphasized that latter. I suspect there may be in the U.S. a handful of "stray" Van Arnhems who descend from other lines. I've stumbled over records of three much later immigrants from Holland surnamed Van Arnhem. I never tried to follow them, though. Van Norman surname is an entirely different nightmare, of course.) If that seems harsh it's because I outlined the problems with Pim's version of our line to him two years ago. I never received a reply and it's all still blazing on the Internet to lead people astray. Sure, we have to check and doublecheck everything we find but guess how long it takes to figure out Sara Theunis wasn't the daughter of Theunis Van Salee and never could have been in the first place. How much time is the right amount to devote to re-inventing the wheel? I view this instance as especially pernicious since Pim translated unreliable U.S. material into Dutch which for American researchers endows it with an accidental but nevertheless real aura of spurious authority. If for some reason Pim is really interested in the line of Jan Dircks and Sara Theunis I will offer, once again, to work with him on several areas of research that need to be done over there. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arlene Reeves" <arkretired@hotmail.com> To: "vannorman rootsweb" <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 > > Hi ALL, > > I have heard so many times "don't trust what you find on the internet"! > And that includes geneology info as well as medical advice, etc. I've > also heard the "VanArnhem Family in North America" book has many mistakes. > The internet and the book also have many accurate pieces of information. > I know from experience there are errors in many documents, including > official documents. I recently spoke with a village clerk who had birth > certificate request from a women who had born 4 children - her birth > certificate says she is a male, the clerk could not correct that info. > She was applying for Social Security, what a mess she had. And my > favorite story is a picture I have from my parents home with "Leon and his > grandfather" written on the back. Leon Joseph Van Norman is my father, he > was born May 22, 1905, his grandfather Oliver Augustus Van Norman died > October 15, 1904. The pic can't be who it says! > > > > I have made many assumptions in my research and I'm sure we all know what > assume means. I'm sure I have many errors in my personal Family Tree > Maker program. All information is important and might lead to the > accurate account of our heritage. > > > > Most important is that we treat others research with respect. That does > not mean we can't challange or correct each other as we all need the help! > > Arlene > > PS: Do you think we should ask Pim if there is a living male in the family > that would do the DNA test? > >> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:28:09 +0200 >> From: wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 >> >> Hi people in the States, >> >> Like I have written in the past, I used the next sources for my >> US-branch of the family Van Arnhem (and Pete I'm absolutely familiar >> with the meaning of the name!!). Since I haven't had time to work >> evidence of the sources on the US-branch, there has been no mail from >> me. (My focus is on the Dutch-branches and those are all verified and >> trustworthy). So for the US-branch on my site I used these sources: >> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vnfa/families.html >> http://gedcomindex.com/towns/nlge004.html >> http://www.ristenbatt.com/genealogy >> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=joanfran&id=I00239] >> >> If those Us-sources are not reliable, then you are right that my info is >> indeed also not reliable. If you have more and/or better info, I'll be >> glad to receive is. >> Greetings from the Netherlands. >> Pim van Arnhem >> >> Op 10-7-2010 9:02, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem (Susan Claggett) >> > 2. Re: Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem (Pete Gonigam) >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:01:52 -0500 >> > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> > Message-ID:<D0FDA67EDF7F4081AC24607EAC94627E@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > >> > Has anyone seen this website? And if so is the information believed to >> > be >> > accurate? Thanks >> > >> > >> > >> > Susan >> > >> > >> > >> > http://home.xmsnet.nl/pimonline/tak-arnhem-VS.html >> > >> > >> > >> > Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >> > >> > The genealogy of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem begins in Arnhem , but already >> > in the >> > second generation son in January Dircksen travels from Arnhem to the >> > United >> > States of America . We are therefore faced with one branch primarily in >> > the >> > U.S. developed . >> > >> > Fascinating is the number of name changes: of Aernhem, of Aernam, >> > d'Arenberg, Vanorman, of Aarnem, of Aernum, of ornamental, Vann Orman, >> > by >> > Arnam, of Arnum, of Ornum, Norman >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 2 >> > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 12:05:54 -0500 >> > From: "Pete Gonigam"<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP5877106E60418C9CAD733FABB50@phx.gbl> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> > reply-type=original >> > >> > I hadn't seen his site but this guy popped up on the board a few times >> > a >> > couple of years ago all hot and bothered that he'd found "U.S. Van >> > Arnhems". >> > Even though he's Dutch it hadn't occurred to him that Van Arnhem just >> > means >> > "from Arnhem" and lotsa people were in the old days. (There was a Henry >> > "from Arnhem" in Brooklyn 1742 or so who had no connection with our >> > line; >> > I've never figured out if he died or took a different surname.) Anyway, >> > I >> > told Pim I could suggest some fruitful lines of research to pursue in >> > Netherlands if he wanted to research U.S. Van Arnhems but he never >> > answered >> > back. >> > >> > The site as far as U.S. Van Arnhems (etc.) is concerned is utterly >> > unreliable. >> > >> > There's nothing other than "Van Arnhem" to connect our Jan Dircks with >> > the >> > parents listed on the site (and several reasons to think they're the >> > wrong >> > ones.) Jan Dirks wasn't on the "Broken Heart", rather (no records, only >> > logic) "The Faith" with Sara Theunis. Sara was NOT the daughter of >> > Theunis >> > Van Sallee. (Records show that woman married someone else and died in >> > Massachussets, I think.) Etc., etc., etc. >> > >> > I don't have a copy of it, but I think one way or another, this guy's >> > site >> > derives from "Van Arnhems in North America" which we've proved in many >> > ways >> > is itself unreliable. >> > >> > --pete >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 11:01 AM >> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >> > >> > >> > >> >> Has anyone seen this website? And if so is the information believed to >> >> be >> >> accurate? Thanks >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://home.xmsnet.nl/pimonline/tak-arnhem-VS.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >> >> >> >> The genealogy of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem begins in Arnhem , but already >> >> in >> >> the >> >> second generation son in January Dircksen travels from Arnhem to the >> >> United >> >> States of America . We are therefore faced with one branch primarily >> >> in >> >> the >> >> U.S. developed . >> >> >> >> Fascinating is the number of name changes: of Aernhem, of Aernam, >> >> d'Arenberg, Vanorman, of Aarnem, of Aernum, of ornamental, Vann Orman, >> >> by >> >> Arnam, of Arnum, of Ornum, Norman >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> > >> > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >> > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> > >> > __________________________________________________________ >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> > body of the >> > email with no additional text. >> > >> > >> > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 >> > **************************************** >> > >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your > inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

YES YES YES Great idea Arlene! Pim would you be able to or be willing to or find a male ancestor to take a DNA test so we can all prove our relations? Are you aware of the Van Norman DNA program that Stephen Wood is heading up at Family Tree DNA under the project name of Van Norman? Charlie Van Norman and my brother matched perfectly at 32 markers and we are believed to be from the old NY line which is the same tail male line as your family Pim. This could be our big breakthrough!!! Regards, Susan Van Orman Claggett -----Original Message----- From: Charlie Van Norman [mailto:charlie@vannorman.com] Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 9:30 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 Arlene, I say absolutely yes on the DNA test. Charlie Van Norman On 7/19/2010 5:37 PM, Arlene Reeves wrote: > Hi ALL, > > I have heard so many times "don't trust what you find on the internet"! And that includes geneology info as well as medical advice, etc. I've also heard the "VanArnhem Family in North America" book has many mistakes. The internet and the book also have many accurate pieces of information. I know from experience there are errors in many documents, including official documents. I recently spoke with a village clerk who had birth certificate request from a women who had born 4 children - her birth certificate says she is a male, the clerk could not correct that info. She was applying for Social Security, what a mess she had. And my favorite story is a picture I have from my parents home with "Leon and his grandfather" written on the back. Leon Joseph Van Norman is my father, he was born May 22, 1905, his grandfather Oliver Augustus Van Norman died October 15, 1904. The pic can't be who it says! > > > > I have made many assumptions in my research and I'm sure we all know what assume means. I'm sure I have many errors in my personal Family Tree Maker program. All information is important and might lead to the accurate account of our heritage. > > > > Most important is that we treat others research with respect. That does not mean we can't challange or correct each other as we all need the help! > > Arlene > > PS: Do you think we should ask Pim if there is a living male in the family that would do the DNA test? > > >> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:28:09 +0200 >> From: wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 >> >> Hi people in the States, >> >> Like I have written in the past, I used the next sources for my >> US-branch of the family Van Arnhem (and Pete I'm absolutely familiar >> with the meaning of the name!!). Since I haven't had time to work >> evidence of the sources on the US-branch, there has been no mail from >> me. (My focus is on the Dutch-branches and those are all verified and >> trustworthy). So for the US-branch on my site I used these sources: >> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vnfa/families.html >> http://gedcomindex.com/towns/nlge004.html >> http://www.ristenbatt.com/genealogy >> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=joanfran&id=I00239 ] >> >> If those Us-sources are not reliable, then you are right that my info is >> indeed also not reliable. If you have more and/or better info, I'll be >> glad to receive is. >> Greetings from the Netherlands. >> Pim van Arnhem >> >> Op 10-7-2010 9:02, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem (Susan Claggett) >>> 2. Re: Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem (Pete Gonigam) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:01:52 -0500 >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<D0FDA67EDF7F4081AC24607EAC94627E@vantk1o0kgylz7> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> >>> Has anyone seen this website? And if so is the information believed to be >>> accurate? Thanks >>> >>> >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>> http://home.xmsnet.nl/pimonline/tak-arnhem-VS.html >>> >>> >>> >>> Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >>> >>> The genealogy of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem begins in Arnhem , but already in the >>> second generation son in January Dircksen travels from Arnhem to the United >>> States of America . We are therefore faced with one branch primarily in the >>> U.S. developed . >>> >>> Fascinating is the number of name changes: of Aernhem, of Aernam, >>> d'Arenberg, Vanorman, of Aarnem, of Aernum, of ornamental, Vann Orman, by >>> Arnam, of Arnum, of Ornum, Norman >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 12:05:54 -0500 >>> From: "Pete Gonigam"<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP5877106E60418C9CAD733FABB50@phx.gbl> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> I hadn't seen his site but this guy popped up on the board a few times a >>> couple of years ago all hot and bothered that he'd found "U.S. Van Arnhems". >>> Even though he's Dutch it hadn't occurred to him that Van Arnhem just means >>> "from Arnhem" and lotsa people were in the old days. (There was a Henry >>> "from Arnhem" in Brooklyn 1742 or so who had no connection with our line; >>> I've never figured out if he died or took a different surname.) Anyway, I >>> told Pim I could suggest some fruitful lines of research to pursue in >>> Netherlands if he wanted to research U.S. Van Arnhems but he never answered >>> back. >>> >>> The site as far as U.S. Van Arnhems (etc.) is concerned is utterly >>> unreliable. >>> >>> There's nothing other than "Van Arnhem" to connect our Jan Dircks with the >>> parents listed on the site (and several reasons to think they're the wrong >>> ones.) Jan Dirks wasn't on the "Broken Heart", rather (no records, only >>> logic) "The Faith" with Sara Theunis. Sara was NOT the daughter of Theunis >>> Van Sallee. (Records show that woman married someone else and died in >>> Massachussets, I think.) Etc., etc., etc. >>> >>> I don't have a copy of it, but I think one way or another, this guy's site >>> derives from "Van Arnhems in North America" which we've proved in many ways >>> is itself unreliable. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 11:01 AM >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Has anyone seen this website? And if so is the information believed to be >>>> accurate? Thanks >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://home.xmsnet.nl/pimonline/tak-arnhem-VS.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem >>>> >>>> The genealogy of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem begins in Arnhem , but already in >>>> the >>>> second generation son in January Dircksen travels from Arnhem to the >>>> United >>>> States of America . We are therefore faced with one branch primarily in >>>> the >>>> U.S. developed . >>>> >>>> Fascinating is the number of name changes: of Aernhem, of Aernam, >>>> d'Arenberg, Vanorman, of Aarnem, of Aernum, of ornamental, Vann Orman, by >>>> Arnam, of Arnum, of Ornum, Norman >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>> email with no additional text. >>> >>> >>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 >>> **************************************** >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:W L:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi ALL, I have heard so many times "don't trust what you find on the internet"! And that includes geneology info as well as medical advice, etc. I've also heard the "VanArnhem Family in North America" book has many mistakes. The internet and the book also have many accurate pieces of information. I know from experience there are errors in many documents, including official documents. I recently spoke with a village clerk who had birth certificate request from a women who had born 4 children - her birth certificate says she is a male, the clerk could not correct that info. She was applying for Social Security, what a mess she had. And my favorite story is a picture I have from my parents home with "Leon and his grandfather" written on the back. Leon Joseph Van Norman is my father, he was born May 22, 1905, his grandfather Oliver Augustus Van Norman died October 15, 1904. The pic can't be who it says! I have made many assumptions in my research and I'm sure we all know what assume means. I'm sure I have many errors in my personal Family Tree Maker program. All information is important and might lead to the accurate account of our heritage. Most important is that we treat others research with respect. That does not mean we can't challange or correct each other as we all need the help! Arlene PS: Do you think we should ask Pim if there is a living male in the family that would do the DNA test? > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:28:09 +0200 > From: wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 > > Hi people in the States, > > Like I have written in the past, I used the next sources for my > US-branch of the family Van Arnhem (and Pete I'm absolutely familiar > with the meaning of the name!!). Since I haven't had time to work > evidence of the sources on the US-branch, there has been no mail from > me. (My focus is on the Dutch-branches and those are all verified and > trustworthy). So for the US-branch on my site I used these sources: > http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vnfa/families.html > http://gedcomindex.com/towns/nlge004.html > http://www.ristenbatt.com/genealogy > http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=joanfran&id=I00239] > > If those Us-sources are not reliable, then you are right that my info is > indeed also not reliable. If you have more and/or better info, I'll be > glad to receive is. > Greetings from the Netherlands. > Pim van Arnhem > > Op 10-7-2010 9:02, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem (Susan Claggett) > > 2. Re: Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem (Pete Gonigam) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 11:01:52 -0500 > > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > > Message-ID:<D0FDA67EDF7F4081AC24607EAC94627E@vantk1o0kgylz7> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Has anyone seen this website? And if so is the information believed to be > > accurate? Thanks > > > > > > > > Susan > > > > > > > > http://home.xmsnet.nl/pimonline/tak-arnhem-VS.html > > > > > > > > Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > > > > The genealogy of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem begins in Arnhem , but already in the > > second generation son in January Dircksen travels from Arnhem to the United > > States of America . We are therefore faced with one branch primarily in the > > U.S. developed . > > > > Fascinating is the number of name changes: of Aernhem, of Aernam, > > d'Arenberg, Vanorman, of Aarnem, of Aernum, of ornamental, Vann Orman, by > > Arnam, of Arnum, of Ornum, Norman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 12:05:54 -0500 > > From: "Pete Gonigam"<gonigam@hotmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP5877106E60418C9CAD733FABB50@phx.gbl> > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > > reply-type=original > > > > I hadn't seen his site but this guy popped up on the board a few times a > > couple of years ago all hot and bothered that he'd found "U.S. Van Arnhems". > > Even though he's Dutch it hadn't occurred to him that Van Arnhem just means > > "from Arnhem" and lotsa people were in the old days. (There was a Henry > > "from Arnhem" in Brooklyn 1742 or so who had no connection with our line; > > I've never figured out if he died or took a different surname.) Anyway, I > > told Pim I could suggest some fruitful lines of research to pursue in > > Netherlands if he wanted to research U.S. Van Arnhems but he never answered > > back. > > > > The site as far as U.S. Van Arnhems (etc.) is concerned is utterly > > unreliable. > > > > There's nothing other than "Van Arnhem" to connect our Jan Dircks with the > > parents listed on the site (and several reasons to think they're the wrong > > ones.) Jan Dirks wasn't on the "Broken Heart", rather (no records, only > > logic) "The Faith" with Sara Theunis. Sara was NOT the daughter of Theunis > > Van Sallee. (Records show that woman married someone else and died in > > Massachussets, I think.) Etc., etc., etc. > > > > I don't have a copy of it, but I think one way or another, this guy's site > > derives from "Van Arnhems in North America" which we've proved in many ways > > is itself unreliable. > > > > --pete > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 11:01 AM > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > > > > > > > >> Has anyone seen this website? And if so is the information believed to be > >> accurate? Thanks > >> > >> > >> > >> Susan > >> > >> > >> > >> http://home.xmsnet.nl/pimonline/tak-arnhem-VS.html > >> > >> > >> > >> Genealogy of van Arnhem by Pim van Arnhem > >> > >> The genealogy of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem begins in Arnhem , but already in > >> the > >> second generation son in January Dircksen travels from Arnhem to the > >> United > >> States of America . We are therefore faced with one branch primarily in > >> the > >> U.S. developed . > >> > >> Fascinating is the number of name changes: of Aernhem, of Aernam, > >> d'Arenberg, Vanorman, of Aarnem, of Aernum, of ornamental, Vann Orman, by > >> Arnam, of Arnum, of Ornum, Norman > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 89 > > **************************************** > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1